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RPG Superstar 2015

PFS #3-20: The Rats of Round Mountain, Part I: The Sundered Path [SPOILERS]


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

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*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The melee attacks for the "Worshipper" in Act 2 part B should probably have been written like:

Subtier 7-8:
mwk short sword +12/+7 (1d6+4/19–20), mwk short sword +12/+7 (1d6+4/19–20)

Subtier 10-11
+1 short sword +14/+9 (1d6+5/17–20), +1 short sword +14/+9 (1d6+5/17–20)

Sorry for the confusion over TWF in the stat block. Happy stabbing! :)

Paizo Employee ** Developer

Except that's not how we do two identical attacks in our statblocks. Which is why it was changed in development, Kyle. ;-)

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Moreland wrote:
Except that's not how we do two identical attacks in our statblocks. Which is why it was changed in development, Kyle. ;-)

Hmm.. It looked funny compared to what the spreadsheet spits out. Been staring at too many stat blocks the last few days. Thanks Mark!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Kyle Baird wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Except that's not how we do two identical attacks in our statblocks. Which is why it was changed in development, Kyle. ;-)
Hmm.. It looked funny compared to what the spreadsheet spits out. Been staring at too many stat blocks the last few days. Thanks Mark!

Welcome to the club, Caring Kyle. We got your cross-eyed freelancer glasses all ready for you.

The spreadsheet is fun aint it? This is unrelated, but... sometimes it does interesting things based upon the order that you put information into it. A couple days a ago I was putting a creature in it from B1, so I could then add classes to it, and I couldn't get the manufactured weapon and supplemental natural attacks to reconcile.. unless I put certain information in it in a specific order.

It's a good tool though! (don't beat me master!)

***** Dedicated Voter 2013

First grats Kyle grreeat scenario. I ran this today was glad I ran this. Unfortunately, my GM karma was against me. Allot of gm nat 1's.

CMB/CMD statblock question should CMB manuever modifiers be in parethesis say in the optional encounter creature from this scenario.? Similar to CMD manuer against a trip?

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

(being deliberately vague)

The optional encounter elements are directly from published material which don't include separate listing for maneuvers in which they're trained. As a GM I would prefer them there, however, I'm sure Mark could tell us it's "correct." pfft, whatever that means. ;-)

Glad you liked it!

Shadow Lodge ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Man, this scenario reads like it was written by a drunken chimpanzee.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ryan Bolduan wrote:
Man, this scenario reads like it was written by a drunken chimpanzee.

It was. What's your point?

Now get out of here, I haven't run this for you yet.

***** Dedicated Voter 2013

Well all things considered, the difference is small. I think it should be standard practise though.

***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It suddenly makes sense why this felt like a killer module. We were lucky to live through it.

Rubia

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rubia wrote:

It suddenly makes sense why this felt like a killer module. We were lucky to live through it.

Rubia

It's not much of a killer if you were able to survive. ;-)

The more important question whether or not you had fun.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Well, I made it through Part 1 today. Pretty brutal, I gotta say.

***

Kyle Baird wrote:
Rubia wrote:

It suddenly makes sense why this felt like a killer module. We were lucky to live through it.

Rubia

It's not much of a killer if you were able to survive. ;-)

The more important question whether or not you had fun.

This was one of the most fun modules I've played. It was a challenge, and gave that glorious tension that *we might not win*. I wish that were in PFS more frequently.

Good GM too, btw.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Well, I made it through Part 1 today. Pretty brutal, I gotta say.

Was the an expectation to the contrary? ;-) I mean, you are tasked with traveling through a giant chunk of the Darklands ripped out off the earth hundreds of years ago and sent to a personal demiplane..

More importantly, did you enjoy it?

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rubia wrote:

This was one of the most fun modules I've played. It was a challenge, and gave that glorious tension that *we might not win*. I wish that were in PFS more frequently.

Good GM too, btw.

That tension is incredibly difficult to design given the wide variety of PCs in PFS. I'm glad to hear that for you it worked well! I'm still anxiously awaiting the first time it falls on the dark side of fun.

p.s. Any Chelaxians at the table? Just curious what they think of their faction mission..

***

Kyle Baird wrote:
Rubia wrote:

This was one of the most fun modules I've played. It was a challenge, and gave that glorious tension that *we might not win*. I wish that were in PFS more frequently.

Good GM too, btw.

That tension is incredibly difficult to design given the wide variety of PCs in PFS. I'm glad to hear that for you it worked well! I'm still anxiously awaiting the first time it falls on the dark side of fun.

p.s. Any Chelaxians at the table? Just curious what they think of their faction mission..

Yeah, I can sympathize with scenarios being hard to write for balance. That's the primary reason I advocate for GM empowerment. But you know, that's a whole other conversation. . . .

This scenario worked for us, but a lesser team would have been mindlessly slaughtered.

Spoiler:

Though I do like the "mercy" rule in the last encounter.

One Chelaxian. He loved his mission and the reason for it.

Spoiler:

So, if there's a team of all chelaxians, they get no PA?

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Most of the encounters in there have similar morale. IMO, most creatures aren't up for a fight the death if it can be avoided. Using "fights to the death" for the majority of encounters is a lazy cop-out.

To answer your last question, you are correct. Them's the breaks!

***

Kyle Baird wrote:

Most of the encounters in there have similar morale. IMO, most creatures aren't up for a fight the death if it can be avoided. Using "fights to the death" for the majority of encounters is a lazy cop-out.

To answer your last question, you are correct. Them's the breaks!

That morale comment was not for the monsters but the PCs. :)

Rubia

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

LOL!

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Is it weird that I'm planning on spending several hours prepping to run this scenario?

Dark Archive ***

Kyle Baird wrote:
Is it weird that I'm planning on spending several hours prepping to run this scenario?

I'd consider it weird if you (or any other GM) didn't.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

I think the nastiest part of this was the fight with the Dark Stalkers. Primarily, the fact that one of them was a spellcaster with access to dispel magic. Being able to eliminate the only defense we had against the deeper darkness (an oil of daylight) is just brutal.

Relatedly, given that any time deeper darkness comes up it seems to be at-will and with counter-countermeasures, is there any point in even carrying said oil of daylight? Is there some other, more reliable countermeasure my PCs could be carrying?

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well the oil of daylight does give you at least part of a round to see the field and what's going on. That can be valuable to use save or suck spells or grapple something. The best tactic would be to delay right behind whomever is using the daylight. Remember that as a SLA, they still need to make a concentration check if you're grappling them (or readying to stab them in the face)

Other countermeasures available at those levels would be casting a heightened daylight or any 4th level or higher spell that emits light (fire shield? although it's personal, so no potion/oil)

Lesser globe of invulnerability works well at least for the caster.

Having dispel magic ready to remove the darkness or counter a caster's dispel magic is a great option too for any caster vs. caster fight.

Being a rogue or barbarian helps too since they can't sneak you even though you can't see them.

Summon an earth elemental or another creature that doesn't need sight to help.

Did anyone enjoy picking that wand up off the chronicle sheet?

edit: I also pointed out that the Dark Slayer only has about a 60% chance of getting rid of your daylight depending on the caster's level. (I guess 70% for the oil which is probably CL 5). So there's a decent chance they fail and waste their turn doing so.

double edit: Wait, why am I giving advice making it easier for the players to survive? arggggh!

***

Jiggy wrote:
Relatedly, given that any time deeper darkness comes up it seems to be at-will and with counter-countermeasures, is there any point in even carrying said oil of daylight? Is there some other, more reliable countermeasure my PCs could be carrying?

Yeah, the lesson seems to be "don't bother, because if we want it to be dark, damnit, it will be dark."

The counter? Have every character take blind-fight and get true seeing.

Spoiler:

I ended up using a globe of lesser invulnerability and then hoped the creature couldn't escape.

edit: ninja'd.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Kyle Baird wrote:

Well the oil of daylight does give you at least part of a round to see the field and what's going on. That can be valuable to use save or suck spells or grapple something. The best tactic would be to delay right behind whomever is using the daylight. Remember that as a SLA, they still need to make a concentration check if you're grappling them (or readying to stab them in the face)

Other countermeasures available at those levels would be casting a heightened daylight or any 4th level or higher spell that emits light (fire shield? although it's personal, so no potion/oil)

Lesser globe of invulnerability works well at least for the caster.

Having dispel magic ready to remove the darkness or counter a caster's dispel magic is a great option too for any caster vs. caster fight.

Being a rogue or barbarian helps too since they can't sneak you even though you can't see them.

Summon an earth elemental or another creature that doesn't need sight to help.

Alas, not much of that helps with my fighter. ;) I guess I'll keep having my PCs carry an oil of daylight and hope that occasionally the users of deeper darkness won't also have dispel magic.

Quote:
Did anyone enjoy picking that wand up off the chronicle sheet?

We enjoyed finding it (and I totally plan to GM this at some point and credit my Eldritch Knight). But alas, we offered it as a bribe to the dragon, which ironically was wasted because we still came up short and had to fight her, but she still flew off with the treasure we'd offered up to that point. :(

Quote:
double edit: Wait, why am I giving advice making it easier for the players to survive? arggggh!

You just can't say no to this cute lil lizard face. ;)

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Quote:
Did anyone enjoy picking that wand up off the chronicle sheet?
We enjoyed finding it (and I totally plan to GM this at some point and credit my Eldritch Knight). But alas, we offered it as a bribe to the dragon, which ironically was wasted because we still came up short and had to fight her, but she still flew off with the treasure we'd offered up to that point. :(

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You're GM's mean! I approve!

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Alas, not much of that helps with my fighter. ;)

Unfortunately at higher levels the fighter often has to rely on casters to get through some of the challenges they face. It's much like the wizard needing the fighter to kill the orc at level 1 because 1d4+1 once ain't cutting it.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Kyle Baird wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Quote:
Did anyone enjoy picking that wand up off the chronicle sheet?
We enjoyed finding it (and I totally plan to GM this at some point and credit my Eldritch Knight). But alas, we offered it as a bribe to the dragon, which ironically was wasted because we still came up short and had to fight her, but she still flew off with the treasure we'd offered up to that point. :(
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You're GM's mean! I approve!

Meh, no skin of my back. Couldn't use the item anyway. ;)

And now I know that I absolutely MUST run this scenario at some point!

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rubia wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Relatedly, given that any time deeper darkness comes up it seems to be at-will and with counter-countermeasures, is there any point in even carrying said oil of daylight? Is there some other, more reliable countermeasure my PCs could be carrying?
Yeah, the lesson seems to be "don't bother, because if we want it to be dark, damnit, it will be dark."

What other adventures have deeper darkness and a counter for daylight?

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Kyle Baird wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Alas, not much of that helps with my fighter. ;)
Unfortunately at higher levels the fighter often has to rely on casters to get through some of the challenges they face. It's much like the wizard needing the fighter to kill the orc at level 1 because 1d4+1 once ain't cutting it.

Oh! I could carry scrolls of daylight (or dispel magic) to have the caster use! Thanks for the tip, ya old softie! ;)

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The problem is a scroll of daylight doesn't work so well in darkness...

p.s. I bet your EK wants that spellbook too? :P

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Kyle Baird wrote:
The problem is a scroll of daylight doesn't work so well in darkness...

But you can use it from outside the radius and then walk in.

Quote:
p.s. I bet your EK wants that spellbook too? :P

Spellbook? What spellbook?

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Spellbook? What spellbook?

Buy the scenario..

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Kyle Baird wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Spellbook? What spellbook?
Buy the scenario..

Once my EK gets reasonably near that level...

***

Kyle Baird wrote:
Rubia wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Relatedly, given that any time deeper darkness comes up it seems to be at-will and with counter-countermeasures, is there any point in even carrying said oil of daylight? Is there some other, more reliable countermeasure my PCs could be carrying?
Yeah, the lesson seems to be "don't bother, because if we want it to be dark, damnit, it will be dark."
What other adventures have deeper darkness and a counter for daylight?

Note that darkness has a similar relationship to light that deeper darkness has to daylight in terms of how it screws parties at-tier.

Spoiler:

A quick check of the modules I have. . . . (and I may have missed some)
Rescue at Azlant Ridge, Part II (at will deeper darkness = AWDD)
Heresy of Man Part I (AWDD)
Rats of the Round Mountain Part I (AWDD)
Drow of the Darkland Pyramids (at will darkness + 1/day dd)
Darkest Vengeance (at will darkness, AWDD at tier 1-2 and 4-5)
Hall of Drunken Heroes (AWDD)
A few additional modules with 1/day deeper darkness for multiple creatures (per encounter) that I didn't bother with.
Several low level modules with at will darkness and 1/day darkness with multiple creatures in an encounter
Several clerics in modules with deeper darkness memorized twice, along with dispel magic memorized.

That list doesn't count creatures with dispel magic and darkness/deeper darkness either, FYI.

I don't mind (deeper) darkness in an adventure. What I mind is that it seems clear that unless you can do it at will, you'll lose the arms race. Which is still fine -- I just won't bother to waste money on purchasing one-time counters.

Rubia

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I see this run incorrectly all the time unfortunately.

Round 1a: NPC uses at-will Deeper Darkness (room becomes unnaturally dark)
Round 1b: PC casts daylight (room returns to original lighting conditions)
Round 2: NPC uses at-will Deeper Darkness (nothing happens except the area of effect for DD could now have two points of origin)

In this example the result is the normal lighting conditions. Daylight is still going. DD is still going from two locations. Where DD and Daylight overlap, it's normal lighting conditions. The only way a second casting of DD makes the room unnaturally dark again is if they ready to cast/use DD as a counterspell or use dispel magic to target the already on-going daylight.

* Dedicated Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

The problem is not the at will on the deeper darkness, since don't the darkness and the daylight cancel each other out in the overlapping area and restore the original light conditions?

The problem is the same creature with at will darkness also having dispel. Usually the single countermeasure is enough to get you through the encounter, but when the dispel is in play, you better hope you have a sun domain cleric or something.

Last Resort:
You best bet if you are effectively blinded around a Dark Stalker is to start laying down Obscuring Mist and other fog effects to keep them from sneak attacking.

Jiggy, you might want to look into Riffle Scrolls which you can use in the dark since you activate it by flipping through a little booklet. I think they are PFS legal too.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Saint Caleth wrote:

The problem is not the at will on the deeper darkness, since don't the darkness and the daylight cancel each other out in the overlapping area and restore the original light conditions?

The problem is the same creature with at will darkness also having dispel. Usually the single countermeasure is enough to get you through the encounter, but when the dispel is in play, you better hope you have a sun domain cleric or something.

** spoiler omitted **

Jiggy, you might want to look into Riffle Scrolls which you can use in the dark since you activate it by flipping through a little booklet. I think they are PFS legal too.

Excellent post. If you are knowingly going into the Darklands, expect darkness... :D

***

Kyle Baird wrote:

I see this run incorrectly all the time unfortunately.

Round 1a: NPC uses at-will Deeper Darkness (room becomes unnaturally dark)
Round 1b: PC casts daylight (room returns to original lighting conditions)
Round 2: NPC uses at-will Deeper Darkness (nothing happens except the area of effect for DD could now have two points of origin)

In this example the result is the normal lighting conditions. Daylight is still going. DD is still going from two locations. Where DD and Daylight overlap, it's normal lighting conditions. The only way a second casting of DD makes the room unnaturally dark again is if they ready to cast/use DD as a counterspell or use dispel magic to target the already on-going daylight.

I see this run incorrectly all the time too. The trick is that you should use Round 2 of the NPC to dispel their daylight, just as you said. But any GM worth his/her salt ought to do that. The examples I listed above are capable of those tactics.

And there's also the slight issue that (depending on the GM), you may not be able to target any square within the deeper darkness when casting daylight. So some darkness would still linger unless the PCs dispelled instead of just casting it. (Assuming the radii of the two spells are the same, it would take two castings of daylight to "cover" the space of darkness: one to illuminate the center of the darkness effect so you can target it, and the second daylight centered on that point.)

Basically, even though I want to look on the bright side of life, I won't be able to. :)

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Saint Caleth, that's a common error.

Riffle scrolls eliminate the need to speak. They're Silenced scrolls. You still have to see them. They work in an area of silence, but not in an area of deeper darkness.

(They also require the player to bring the sourcebook, or legitimate pages from the pdf, to the table, of course.)

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Chris Mortika wrote:

Saint Caleth, that's a common error.

Riffle scrolls eliminate the need to speak. They're Silenced scrolls. You still have to see them. They work in an area of silence, but not in an area of deeper darkness.

(They also require the player to bring the sourcebook, or legitimate pages from the pdf, to the table, of course.)

You have to be able to see them in order to flip the pages?

* Dedicated Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Riffle Scroll wrote:

When held between thumb and forefinger and riffled through in a quick manner, the motion of the pages turning activates the magic within, simultaneously completing casting of the spell and erasing the booklet.

... Activating a riffle scroll requires one free hand. A riffle scroll uses the normal casting time for the inscribed spell, even if the user or creator is of a class that has increased casting times when using metamagic effects.
Regular Scroll wrote:
Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.)

These rule suggest to me that you do not need to see it. Regular scrolls specify in their activation rules that you need to read it, riffle scrolls require only one free hand, which is further supported by the description of using a riffle scroll by flipping through the booklet.

What is your reasoning that you have to see it beyond the fact that it uses Silence Spell and not Still Spell? I'm not seeing your logic here.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:

Saint Caleth, that's a common error.

Riffle scrolls eliminate the need to speak. They're Silenced scrolls. You still have to see them. They work in an area of silence, but not in an area of deeper darkness.

(They also require the player to bring the sourcebook, or legitimate pages from the pdf, to the table, of course.)

Get out of here Chris! I'll be running this for you soon enough. Sheesh!

***** Dedicated Voter 2013

Well my thoughts on all the darkness and light.

If a party is facing these effects, a daylight spell even if it lasts a single round it still takes a round out from the enemy. At will power still take a standard action.

Scroll etc while handy have dc to overcome with dispell magic. Unless you are a specific user all hail the Pathfinder Savant class.

Then you have spells that specifically counter each other.

What makes this encounter so fun is there are 2 enemies. So while the PC's may feel that they may be on an uphill battle they really aren't, action economy is still favoring the Pc's.

While daylight is good countering darkness at higher levels players should have at hand a decent list of availabe consumable consumables.

I think when I ran this I had 1 deaper darkness up, from the beginning.

There were 2 dispel magic's cast one took out a deaper darkness another daylight then, then another deaper cast then a daylight that got countered by another deaper darkness.

A lesser globe of invulnerabitly ended up being the spell to trump the encouncter.

Again another side discussion, a dispel magic probably could not target a deeper darkness without an overlapping daylight. Since you would have to target the object or creature. An object out of LoS would be extremely hard to target and dispel, as well as darkness being used specifically to counter a daylight with a range of touch since it is range touch, with zero save.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The last thing I want to add about the daylight/deeper darkness is this:

If your players come up with a creative way or strategy to deal with the deeper darkness, go with it! Don't hose them because RAW and tactics make it possible. There's plenty of other deadliness in this scenario. :)

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Kyle Baird wrote:
There's plenty of other deadliness in this scenario. :)

Actually, I recall that being the nastiest part.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
There's plenty of other deadliness in this scenario. :)
Actually, I recall that being the nastiest part.

For your group.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

True. I guess if we'd had multiple AoE-happy casters, it'd have been a different story.

Dark Archive ***

Kyle Baird wrote:

I see this run incorrectly all the time unfortunately.

Round 1a: NPC uses at-will Deeper Darkness (room becomes unnaturally dark)
Round 1b: PC casts daylight (room returns to original lighting conditions)
Round 2: NPC uses at-will Deeper Darkness (nothing happens except the area of effect for DD could now have two points of origin)

In this example the result is the normal lighting conditions. Daylight is still going. DD is still going from two locations. Where DD and Daylight overlap, it's normal lighting conditions. The only way a second casting of DD makes the room unnaturally dark again is if they ready to cast/use DD as a counterspell or use dispel magic to target the already on-going daylight.

That's how it SHOULD happen but usually it goes:

Suprise round: Critter casts deeper darkness from hiding
Round 1a: PC casts daylight (room returns to original lighting conditions)
Round 1b: NPC uses at-will Deeper Darkness as a counter spell to the expected daylight.

Same amount of time has gone by and PC's are just as hosed on round 2.
I know since this is what killed my very first (and last) Cleric. (well it was the greataxe wielding rogue who did the killing immediately after but same thing).

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

That's how it SHOULD happen but usually it goes:

Suprise round: Critter casts deeper darkness from hiding
Round 1a: PC casts daylight (room returns to original lighting conditions)
Round 1b: NPC uses at-will Deeper Darkness as a counter spell to the expected daylight.

Same amount of time has gone by and PC's are just as hosed on round 2.
I know since this is what killed my very first (and last) Cleric. (well it was the greataxe wielding rogue who did the killing immediately after but same thing).

Unless that NPC specially readies an action to counterspell (thus not acting in the surprise round), they can't "counter" the daylight spell. The result should be that the second deeper darkness in 1b does nothing.

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