The question came up after game last night about advancing monsters on the summoning list.
Basically, the mage in my group just hit ninth level and received Summon Monster V. He asked if instead of summoning a CR 5 Dire Lion or CR 5 Bearded Devil, he could instead summon a stronger Hound Archon which is on the Summon Monster IV list.
So for now it doesn't seem like a problem, but then again I have never actually had anyone in a campaign do this. If I did let him advance the Hound Archon, I would only advance racial hit dice because I could really see how adding class levels could be insanely game breaking.
The character already has SF: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, and the feat that lets you summon one additional creature when summoning multiple creatures.
Optimization aside....
Will this have unforeseen consequences in the future? Should I limit the advancement of creatures to only one or two levels?
The summoning spells are really good. I would not let him modify them. You will have a hard time hurting the party, and encounters will be easier(maybe by a lot) if those spells get any stronger.
I understand what you are saying about making the spells stronger, but keep in mind that is not the intention.
My question, I guess, is not "Can I make the spell stronger?" so much as "Will advancing a CR 4 creature to a CR 8 creature make it more powerful than other CR 8 creatures?"
Thematically the player just wants to stick with Hound Archons because he likes the color of it and based on that reasoning alone I want to oblige. I plan on allowing it with the stipulation that I can rule 0 this if it becomes OP. I was really just looking to see if anyone has seen or heard of this being done and what the potential outcome might be.
Its not so much that it will be stronger. The wizard will be able to pick the most optimal monster for every situation. This will probably make summon monster spells too versitile.
AWESOME point Mojorat!
So could this perhaps require the House Ruling of a feat?
Summoner's Bond
Prerequisite: Augment Summoning
You form a close bond with a specific type of creature on your Summon Monster list. You can summon advanced versions of this creature.
Summoned Monster Advanced to CR 1 is cast as SM 2
Summoned Monster Advanced to CR 2 is cast as SM 3
Summoned Monster Advanced to CR 3-4 is cast as SM 4
Summoned Monster Advanced to CR 5-6 is cast as SM 5
Summoned Monster Advanced to CR 7-8 is cast as SM 6
Summoned Monster Advanced to CR 9-10 is cast as SM7
Summoned Monster Advanced to CR 11-12 is cast as SM 8
Summoned Monster Advanced to CR 13-14 is cast as SM 9
This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time the feat is taken it applies to a new creature found on the Summon Monster list.
I'd be ok with it thematically, but I'd remove other options from the list in exchange. At the very least it is way cooler than a celestial or fiendish animal.
I wouldn't give the player free reign (read: any change in the summoning list should be ok'ed by the GM).
However, I have no problems with players modifying their summoning lists, permanently swapping out a couple of monsters in favor of CR-equivalent other monsters.
Of course, you can create corner cases with grossly under-CR'ed monsters (demon antipaladins, anyone?) ... but that's why I stated I require the GM's approval.
I understand what you are saying about making the spells stronger, but keep in mind that is not the intention.
My question, I guess, is not "Can I make the spell stronger?" so much as "Will advancing a CR 4 creature to a CR 8 creature make it more powerful than other CR 8 creatures?"
Thematically the player just wants to stick with Hound Archons because he likes the color of it and based on that reasoning alone I want to oblige. I plan on allowing it with the stipulation that I can rule 0 this if it becomes OP. I was really just looking to see if anyone has seen or heard of this being done and what the potential outcome might be.
If it is just thematic he can take the monsters the spell give him and just reskin them. He does not need an advantage if it RP only.
ever think this archon might have better things to do then fight for you? what if right you you where plucked from where you where sitting having some wizard forcing you to fight for him. I don't Think that its over powered or anything to give it extra hd or advance it, but I'd make him learn its true name, and give it something to compensate it for fighting for him. I can't imagine that outsiders like being "killed". have you ever asked it how it feels about fighting for you?
Class levels are tricky things to use, having a single paladin level for a hound archon can be quite much, better ability scores, +9 armor from a fullplate, better hitpoints, better saves and smite evil once per.. summon ?
At it's base it is easier to add the advanced template, possibly a giant template and/or increase HD/grant additional special abilities, but the GM should ok the final result if not outright advancing the creature himself.
It is not a big deal, run with it dont be a RAW junkie..
did you learn what its called, or its true name, theirs a differences.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/outsider-categories
read through ^ it may give you and your dm some ideas
I'd switch out one of the monsters that can be summoned at that level for this one. However not one that's opposed to his alignment.
There is a mechanic for people who want to use higher-level spells to get lower level monsters... You just get additional monsters.
SM5 would get you 1d3 Hound Archons.
That being said, I think the feat is solid. Just as long as you OK the changes and make sure they fit thematically. A Hound Archon for example would take Paladin levels, not barbarian.
One thing you could do, is make the wizard an archetype for this. Pick a theme cats dogs bats elemwntals or whatever. And use the model presented by the druid archetypes that can do this.
Its pretty strong and he needs to lose something if its too broad.conversely a feat to do it with a specific monster like say dolphins, be cause advanced giant dolphins I am sure needed by everyone...
in regards to the poster a bit above me about summon monster being weak. Once you hit summon monster 5 the monsters get more useful.. the one outsider can five a lightning bolt heal flies at 100 perfect and can whirlwind.
I would think rather then using summon monster you use those rules. I think it would make a richer role playing experience, I'd even ask if you could take leadership and have him as an actual companion. I think of outsiders as having a lot their doing, if I had a pc who summoned the same outsider over and over I would have the outsider summon that pc to help it in a fight on occasion. probably as a plot hook.
I would think rather then using summon monster you use those rules. I think it would make a richer role playing experience, I'd even ask if you could take leadership and have him as an actual companion. I think of outsiders as having a lot their doing, if I had a pc who summoned the same outsider over and over I would have the outsider summon that pc to help it in a fight on occasion. probably as a plot hook.
Sam you had me until "...I would have the outsider summon that pc"
Unless you are talking epic godlike scale..... even then it seems a bit railroaded.
Either way, there are a bunch of good points in what you suggest.
Summon
Verb:
Authoritatively or urgently call on (someone) to be present, esp. as a defendant or witness in a law court.
Urgently demand (help).
Synonyms:
call - convene - convoke - invite - cite
I should have elaborated a bit more. you could have it ask for assistance in some matter that would help it, maybe a trip to heaven to help out this archon, or something that its superiors need done on the material plane.
Summon
Verb:
Authoritatively or urgently call on (someone) to be present, esp. as a defendant or witness in a law court.
Urgently demand (help).
Synonyms:
call - convene - convoke - invite - citeI should have elaborated a bit more. you could have it ask for assistance in some matter that would help it, maybe a trip to heaven to help out this archon, or something that its superiors need done on the material plane.
Similar story: I can't say the phrase " turns and runs" without my players thinking they each get a free AoO against a flat footed opponent, I have to say 'withdraw.'
Since you have been summoning this particular hound archon for a while, perhaps you could summon an archon from a higher level list and say he got promoted? Keep the color so the connection could be made.
This scenario sounds like a great time to research a new arcane spell called Planar Ally, Lesser then you can research the two higher level versions as well.
As an example, there is already a similar mechanic in place for druids. A shaman druid can add advanced and/or giant templates to a summoned natures ally. Each template adds +1 to the summon level. Alternately, they can apply the young template for -1 to the summon level.
The shaman druid is limited to his shaman type when doing this (example: bear shaman can only do this with bears).
I would compare any mechanic you create to this one.
- Gauss
It should be fine. Just don't let the player stat the summon himself. The difference between a critter from the MM and the same critter that has had optimal selections of feats and stats made can be as much as 1 or 2 points of CR.
Summon Monster V allows you to get 1d3 hound archons. Instead of buffing the one archon, why not just say he brought some friends along?
It's actually potentially messier than just buffing the archon though because you have to run three archons instead of one.
If you do advance the archon, I'd advance him either by hitdice or paladin levels.
Summoning an advanced hound archon is less powerful than summoning 1d3 hound archon, so I would allow it.
Remember, rule zero is the rule of kewl and should be used if it makes the game better for everyone around the table. In my game one of the PCs is a cleric of Orcus, the Demon Prince of Undeads, so I allowed him to summon undead creatures instead of typical summoned monsters without asking him to spend a feat or anything, because it fits his character thematically without making him stronger. If your wizard is lawful, then it makes more sense for him to keep summoning archons than switching to large elementals just because he gained a level.