The risks of playing certain classes. Part 2


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Quote:
An enemy can get around that by just readying an action to attack the horse with intent to trip it as it comes closer, thus invalidating the rest of its turn and getting a full round of attacks on it.

Depends on the monster, the rider, and the "horse".

Most monsters will have a hard time readying actions to trip a horse when its rider has Lunge and Pushing Assault. And things get very hairy for the monster indeed if the mount they just tried to trip is the party Synthesist.


TarkXT wrote:
Quote:
An enemy can get around that by just readying an action to attack the horse with intent to trip it as it comes closer, thus invalidating the rest of its turn and getting a full round of attacks on it.

Depends on the monster, the rider, and the "horse".

Most monsters will have a hard time readying actions to trip a horse when its rider has Lunge and Pushing Assault. And things get very hairy for the monster indeed if the mount they just tried to trip is the party Synthesist.

Yes medium monsters would have quite a lot of trouble especially if you have feats stacked towards getting that much reach. Though I guess one of the things a medium creature could do is bait the rider into attacking him and ready and action to move out the way before he gets there. If I remember correctly at that point the rider can't redirect the charge. Although as I said before though larger monsters would have less of an issue. Though if the party horse is the synthesist, well you've tricked the monster into getting themselves into a jam, that's fine in my book.


Davachido wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Quote:
An enemy can get around that by just readying an action to attack the horse with intent to trip it as it comes closer, thus invalidating the rest of its turn and getting a full round of attacks on it.

Depends on the monster, the rider, and the "horse".

Most monsters will have a hard time readying actions to trip a horse when its rider has Lunge and Pushing Assault. And things get very hairy for the monster indeed if the mount they just tried to trip is the party Synthesist.

Yes medium monsters would have quite a lot of trouble especially if you have feats stacked towards getting that much reach. Though I guess one of the things a medium creature could do is bait the rider into attacking him and ready and action to move out the way before he gets there. If I remember correctly at that point the rider can't redirect the charge. Although as I said before though larger monsters would have less of an issue. Though if the party horse is the synthesist, well you've tricked the monster into getting themselves into a jam, that's fine in my book.

That's a perfectly valid tactic if a touch risky. A rider may see a dude "bracing himself for it" and decide to go do something else. It's sort of like readying yourself to counterspell. You may succeed but it's still a zero sum game.

Quote:

Well Cav's weren't designed with dungeons in mind, they were designed for open fields with lots of room.

Yes and no. Mounted cavaliers thrive on an open field leading a charge there's no doubt. But they were designed to follow the trope of the classic questing knight. A cavalier actually functions best as a part time rider, full time badass with a mane eating horse (or wolf if you go the halfling router and if you can't get beast rider should).


Quote:

That's a perfectly valid tactic if a touch risky. A rider may see a dude "bracing himself for it" and decide to go do something else. It's sort of like readying yourself to counterspell. You may succeed but it's still a zero sum game.

Maybe a bit risky but I'd like to think most medium humanoids fight as a cohesive whole especially intelligent ones. Bait down the charger down a charge lane that has more than enough of his friends to help out. Or maybe because he wants to get into a better position without getting hit, after all if you move first you will just be chased down. However if you wait to move at the last possible moment you have possibly gained safety. Also in your example the rider will go off to do something else if he seems the guy bracing. Ok good on him, the monster has successfully stopped the rider from attacking him and on his next turn might now do something else like run to a vantage point or counter charge to help his other friend that the rider might have attacked. Though now I'm getting OT.

Liberty's Edge

ciretose wrote:

A few quick points

1. It isn't like a Cavalier without a mount is useless. They are still a full BaB class that can buff others.

2. The Cavalier can get another mount.

Is it better that they are on a mount. Yes. Are they useless without a mount? No.

I don't think a lot of people have played the Cavalier. The mount is nice, but they aren't useless without it.

This was actually my original point, and why targeting the horse should be the exception not the rule (speaking logically). The cavalier is vastly more effective than his horse and while the two combined are even more effective, the Horse is...call it 3/4 as tough as the Cavalier and maybe half as good offensively (which, let us not forget, makes the Cavalier 1.5 times as good offensively with it as without it). That makes targeting it instead of the Cavalier himself an extremely poor tactical choice (as you're getting a lower reduction of effective combat prowess per hit).

Should it happen? Sure.

Should it be the norm? Probably not, no.


I'd suspect that for less worldwise but otherwise intelligent types, targeting the Cavalier's horse for an arrow or two would be fairly common. Then their eyes would go wide staring at the barely wounded murderhorse, who doesn't even flinch as it drives a lance into their faces. : D


ciretose wrote:
Davachido wrote:


Just going to say here that fireball does not require an attack roll so you can't roll above it when using mounted combat. Though I would suspect you could try to avoid spells with a touch attack as they require attack rolls. This ability is powerful but don't overestimate it, everyone is talking about focus firing here and this will only really prevent one of those hits. If your ride check is good enough.

Which is part of why Animal Companions get evasion at 3rd level.

Lets say you get a horse. You start with 2 hit dice and a 15 con. Your con gets bumped +2 at 4th. Your natural AC is 15 before you add barding.

The horse isn't any more vulnerable than most players. It is probably less vulnerable than the caster a lot of the time as far as damage.

I hate to derail the discussion but this caused me to remember an old argument we had at our table one day. We had a halfling Druid that used her Cat animal companion as a mount. They got hit by a fireball. The halfling failed her save. The Cat passed and had evasion.

Our question was... since the Cat evaded and the halfling was riding the Cat... did she take damage? We discussed it back and forth and the DM finally ruled that yes the halfing took the damage... Said the cat turned and used the halfing as a shield which was hilarious in its own right.

So was that right. Does the rider still take damage if the mount evades? What if its the other way around and the rider has evasion?

Silver Crusade

Dragonamedrake wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Davachido wrote:


Just going to say here that fireball does not require an attack roll so you can't roll above it when using mounted combat. Though I would suspect you could try to avoid spells with a touch attack as they require attack rolls. This ability is powerful but don't overestimate it, everyone is talking about focus firing here and this will only really prevent one of those hits. If your ride check is good enough.

Which is part of why Animal Companions get evasion at 3rd level.

Lets say you get a horse. You start with 2 hit dice and a 15 con. Your con gets bumped +2 at 4th. Your natural AC is 15 before you add barding.

The horse isn't any more vulnerable than most players. It is probably less vulnerable than the caster a lot of the time as far as damage.

I hate to derail the discussion but this caused me to remember an old argument we had at our table one day. We had a halfling Druid that used her Cat animal companion as a mount. They got hit by a fireball. The halfling failed her save. The Cat passed and had evasion.

Our question was... since the Cat evaded and the halfling was riding the Cat... did she take damage? We discussed it back and forth and the DM finally ruled that yes the halfing took the damage... Said the cat turned and used the halfing as a shield which was hilarious in its own right.

So was that right. Does the rider still take damage if the mount evades? What if its the other way around and the rider has evasion?

Evasion only works for the Cat. If a rogue was riding a horse and they got hit with a Fireball then the rogue would only get to use Evasion.

The Exchange

blahpers wrote:
Then their eyes would go wide staring at the barely wounded murderhorse, who doesn't even flinch as it drives a lance into their faces. : D

I don't understand, how does a horse, even a murderhorse, drive a lance into someone's face from that distance? It don't got no arms.


At the moment I'm trying to figure out if a blink dog can voluntarily turn off his blinking so I can put a saddle on it and call it a Master of Many Styles.

-Well they manage to reproduce somehow so I'm going to guess yes.


RE: Not attacking the mount:
A good reason - fairness (slightly NSFW)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

What series is that?


History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi.
Very good manga. Read it.


ImperatorK wrote:

History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi.

Very good manga. Read it.

I prefer berserk. But thank you.


Berserk. That anime had me craving for a second season and it got me into the manga.


TarkXT wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:

History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi.

Very good manga. Read it.
I prefer berserk. But thank you.

I like it too. Kinda D&D-like.


Tirq wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Then their eyes would go wide staring at the barely wounded murderhorse, who doesn't even flinch as it drives a lance into their faces. : D
I don't understand, how does a horse, even a murderhorse, drive a lance into someone's face from that distance? It don't got no arms.

MURDERHORSE!

The Exchange

blahpers wrote:
Tirq wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Then their eyes would go wide staring at the barely wounded murderhorse, who doesn't even flinch as it drives a lance into their faces. : D
I don't understand, how does a horse, even a murderhorse, drive a lance into someone's face from that distance? It don't got no arms.
MURDERHORSE!

IT DON'T GOT NO ARMS!


Tirq wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Tirq wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Then their eyes would go wide staring at the barely wounded murderhorse, who doesn't even flinch as it drives a lance into their faces. : D
I don't understand, how does a horse, even a murderhorse, drive a lance into someone's face from that distance? It don't got no arms.
MURDERHORSE!
IT DON'T GOT NO ARMS!

That's because the Murderhorse ripped them off you. Duh.

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