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mid air colision, any spell or object that is roughly the same size or shape as the flying creature will cause it to need a dc 25 fly check to stay in the air.
summon monster is a very good way to do this. summon a dire bat + enlarge animal can knock a huge sized dragon out of the air.
as for weapon attacks, every time a flying creature gets hit they have to make a fly check.
"You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature’s movement "
they have a few spells for this like sorrocco (i think thats how you spell it).
I would say, use a net, they should be pretty good at this.
Shame you can't trip fliers.
You know, I would murder for an official Paizo supplement that details three-dimensional combat, complete with things that deal with these situations--considering that flight is available at level 5.
Speaking of fly
does magical flight have to roll dice at all for many of the situations winged fliers are put through? After all, it is magical flight, no wings needed and the spell mentions it is as effortless as walking.
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Nemitri, if the rule specifies that it only affects winged fliers (like the weapon attack rule quoted by TheSideKick), then it only applies to winged fliers. Otherwise, it applies to everyone.
Other things that are effective for grounding fliers, depending on the nature of their flight:
Paralysis
Anything that causes them to become entangled (like a tanglefoot bag or a net).
Dispel Magic
Knocking them unconscious (ok, moot point usually)
Magical sleep
Magical manipulation of the wind
Causing them to exceed their maximum weight while flying, whether that's by draining Strength or dropping an enlarged tyrannosaur on their back.
If you're able to, important these awesome 3E rules for tripping other types of creatures:
The trip attack covers almost any situation in which one combatant tries to make another fall down, from sticking out a foot to cause a character to stumble to yanking a rider out of the saddle.
Who Can Be Tripped: Any creature that is subject to gravity and somehow holds itself off the ground is subject to trip attacks. Incorporeal creatures can't be tripped -- even by other incorporeal creatures -- because they can't fall down. A prone creature has already fallen down and can't be tripped. (This can prove significant when you've tripped a foe and wish to keep him down; see the section on being tripped [below].) Limbless creatures pretty much just lie on the ground (at least while using their normal land speeds or just standing around on a fairly level space) and usually can't be tripped unless they're climbing or in some other precarious situation. This includes creatures with the ooze type, snakes, and anything else that wiggles and slithers. The rules don't give any guidance on creatures whose body types make them immune to trip attacks, so you'll have to rely on your common sense here.
Tripping Climbers: When you make a trip attack against a creature using the Climb skill or using a climb speed, you literally dislodge the climber from the surface she is ascending (or descending). You resolve the trip attack just as you would any other trip attack, except that if you succeed the climber falls. The climber, however, can make a Climb check to catch himself as noted in the Climb skill description. If the climber doesn't catch herself, she falls to the bottom of the slope or wall she was climbing and takes the appropriate amount of damage. The climber is prone after falling.
Tripping Flyers: A creature flying with wings can be tripped. If the attempt succeeds, the creature stalls and falls 150 feet. See Rules of the Game: All About Movement for details (and a few unofficial additional rules about tripping flying creatures).
Creatures that fly without wings (and any creature with perfect maneuverability) can't be tripped while flying. If the creature is still in the air after stalling, it must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover and resume flying. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it lands prone and takes falling damage.
Tripping Swimmers: Since water tends to hold creatures up, you can't trip a swimmer.
Tripping Riders: You can pull a rider out of his seat with a trip attack. If you win the opposed check, the rider falls off his mount and takes 1d6 points of damage if the mount is moving or standing on the ground. If you make someone fall off a flying mount, she could take considerably more damage, depending on the mount's altitude.
The rider on a mount that isn't flying can attempt a Ride check (DC 15) to soften the fall and take no damage. The rider lands on his feet if he successfully softens his fall. If he takes damage, he falls prone.
The referenced link for unofficial additional rules for tripping fliers is actually found in Part 5 of that series:
Most creature using wings or other appendages to fly can be tripped. Incorporeal creatures with perfect maneuverability, and creatures that don't rely on their limbs to fly cannot be tripped when in flight.
Resolving the Trip Attempt: The attacker makes a Strength check. The defender can oppose the attempt with a Strength check or a Dexterity check. Each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows: perfect +12, good maneuverability +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.
Stability bonuses do not apply in aerial overruns.
Trip Results: A successful trip forces the defender to stall (even if the tripped creature doesn't have a minimum forward speed) rather than knocking the defender prone.
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So somethign like a young black draogn who has +13 fly is impossible to knock out of the air, yes?
"You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature’s movement "
a young black dragon has to make a dc 25 if a colission is invloved, but if you attack him with a normal attack, yes.
so a 60% chance on a colission or a 0% chance on damage.
Speaking of fly
does magical flight have to roll dice at all for many of the situations winged fliers are put through? After all, it is magical flight, no wings needed and the spell mentions it is as effortless as walking.
yes they do, magical flight only gives perfect maneuverability, usually, so they get a +8. the major difference between normal flight with wings and magical flight (no wings) is that any form of antimagic attack,( dispell magic, mages disjunction, ect..) will cause an auto fail for trying to resist falling damage.
basically you want mundane flight over magical (SP,SLA or SU) if you can get it.
Honestly, the DC for suffering damage should be the damage suffered rather than just DC10 which almost all winged fliers can auto-make. Falling 10feet is not that large of a penalty. - Gauss
SideKick, dispelling a fly spell does not (immediately) result in falling damage. It results in the end of the spell which then allows the flier to float safely to the ground at a rate of 60feet per round for 1d6rounds. After that duration then yes, falling damage may occur. - Gauss
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i think they just wanted to make flying a scray thing to fight against. if i could just shoot you out of the air with my bow every time, there would be no advantage to flying.
idk if a colossal red dragon was 50 feet up, and a level 10 archer with 6 attacks knocked him to the ground every round, that dragon wouldnt be scary at all.
just a inane example, not trying to get into the probabilities of blah blah blah.
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gauss it was on example of an atimagic attack, i was being broad. anyone who read the spell would know that, the one example listed wouldnt work.
was it really necessary to point out that one incorrect instance, which isnt necessarily wrong since you were only talking about the fly spell, with a post?
SideKick, people respond with corrections all the time. There was no malice in my response. I am corrected all the time when I am overly broad. - Gauss
i think they just wanted to make flying a scray thing to fight against. if i could just shoot you out of the air with my bow every time, there would be no advantage to flying.
idk if a colossal red dragon was 50 feet up, and a level 10 archer with 6 attacks knocked him to the ground every round, that dragon wouldnt be scary at all.
just a inane example, not trying to get into the probabilities of blah blah blah.
Level 10 fighter with a bow does on average 21.50points per arrow. Same level 10 fighter has 5arrows per round IF hastened. An Adult Red Dragon would need to make DC21 check which is only a 9. Factor in the fact that many of these arrows wont hit and I fail to see a problem.
- Gauss
i think they just wanted to make flying a scray thing to fight against. if i could just shoot you out of the air with my bow every time, there would be no advantage to flying.
idk if a colossal red dragon was 50 feet up, and a level 10 archer with 6 attacks knocked him to the ground every round, that dragon wouldnt be scary at all.
just a inane example, not trying to get into the probabilities of blah blah blah.
You want to make fighting flying monsters scary, remove flight magic from your game world and see how scary they become.
Now your melee characters can't get into range of them to take them out.
With fly by attack they can just harass the party one by one and take them out. For dragons, launching some breath attacks, darting to and fro. Now you have to rely on archers and casters to take them out. Of course, I don't think this is a real solution because now you're just making things difficult for melee characters, which doesn't really help.
Also, not every flying creature should be all the scary.
Drgaons should be scary, but they are scary for reasons beyond flight. Old enough dragons should probably open combat by casting antimagic field (which extends 10ft beyond their space) and then proceeding to be a dragon while immune to your magic. Also turning off your magical armor and weapons when they get in range. Now that's scary.
Big creatures and centered effects: If a Large or larger creature has up an effect “centered on you,” does that mean that sometimes the emanation doesn’t even affect the creature’s entire space, let alone anything else?
No, when such a creature uses an emanation or burst with the text “centered on you,” treat the creature’s entire space as the spell’s point of origin, and measure the spell’s area or effect from the edges of the creature’s space. For instance, an antimagic field cast by a great wyrm red dragon would extend 10 feet beyond her 30x30 foot space, for a total of a 50 foot diameter.
I once tried to throw a grappling hook at a harpy. I thought it was pretty clever, but the GM didn't allow it to knock the harpy out of the air, just damage.Lame, I would allow a maneuver with this, maybe taking the -4 for using a improvised weapon, but I liked it.
Technically the GM followed the rules.
Taking damage while flying results in a DC10 fly check to not drop 10ft. Under no circumstances does hitting a flying target with an attack automatically result in knocking them to the ground, unless you have a special ability which explicitly states that. Unfortunately for Theconiel Harpy's have a +12 to fly, so they cannot fail the check.
Now, if you had one of these then you could have a good argument for having a rope connecting you to them, that you could use to control them.
Unfortunately the rules for grappling hooks as a base don't really seem to account that you might try to do this. Weirdly, there is another weapon though does this sort of thing, but only if you score a critical hit with it. Can't remember which weapon it is though.
Pirates of the Inner Sea has the grappling hook as an exotic weapon with the "grapple" special quality. Unfortunately that only allows you to grapple the foe if you score a critical hit. Harpoons are similar and only have a crit range of 20, something which seems pretty disappointing to me since I wouldn't expect somebody using a harpoon to need to try 10 or 20 times on average to get it to stick. Maybe the typical harpooner is a 15th level Samurai though...
One time some players used a net to catch a flying foe. I'm not sure what sort of distances that could work at, but it might at least be an option.
I mean, a net with a readied action would work once a flier gets closer.
Bull rush them down. :)