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Looking for equivalent to 3.5 "Lasher" whip PRC


Advice

Osirion

Alright all you power-bilding guys and gals!

I'm building a gypsy-type character, and I want to update him to Pathfinder RPG. ... originally, he was a "Lasher", with all of the attendant whip-tricks and such. He was an Agility Fighter/Rogue. The build concept was proving to another player that a fighter was just as viable with an agility build, and he was based specifically on the ability to trip with his whip and then quick-draw a handaxe and hit the tripped foe with it. In 3.5, I used a "Exotic Weapons Master" from the Complete series to simulate a build for him that never got played.

So ... can some of you out there make suggestions for a build in PFS? Especially a PRC? I'd like to have him be able to do some decent DPR, but the primary focus is the gypsy whip-wielder theme, especially being able to do tricks.

Just for fun and reference, *here's* an illustration of the character that I drew. It might help with the theme.

Cheliax

really all you need is the whip mastery line of feats.


I don't have anything much to add to what NV said mechanically (Pathfinder has less total material out that 3.5, and weapon-specific stuff and good PrCs are some of what there's the least of), but I want to say I really like your art.

Cheliax

also thhe trait that lets you use a whip as a grappeling hook

Prehensile WhipP
Source Adventurer's Armory 31
In your hand a whip has a life of its own, wrapping around pillars and beams with ease. You can use a whip as if it were a rope with a grappling hook at the end. Attaching your whip is a standard action, but detaching it is a full-round action.

you could use weapon master or lore warden archetypes for fighter and focus on combat maneuvers

You could do a bladebound magus and use a whip as a blackblade (its a one handed slashing weapon). you could even add kensai to the magus so you can be proficient at first level, and focus more on combat with a few buffs

whip mastery
improved whip mastery
greater whip mastery

Cheliax

also an inquisitor who's god is favored weapon is whip gets prof. i believe. IF you want a "simon Belmont/van helsing" character thats an option

also Bard. Specifically arcane duelist (and maybe a few other archetypes) can be awesome with a whip

Osirion

Joyd wrote:
I don't have anything much to add to what NV said mechanically (Pathfinder has less total material out that 3.5, and weapon-specific stuff and good PrCs are some of what there's the least of), but I want to say I really like your art.

Thank you, so much. I appreciate that. I hope within the next couple of years to be illustrating professionally for Paizo. I'm already working for the next issue of Wayfinder.


Lasher was 3.0, 3.5 people were hurting for such a thing, too. :(

And there is no such thing. The PF whip feats are a pale shadow of the Lasher's glory.

Osirion

Name Violation wrote:

also thhe trait that lets you use a whip as a grappeling hook

Prehensile Whip
Source Adventurer's Armory 31
In your hand a whip has a life of its own, wrapping around pillars and beams with ease. You can use a whip as if it were a rope with a grappling hook at the end. Attaching your whip is a standard action, but detaching it is a full-round action.

you could use weapon master or lore warden archetypes for fighter and focus on combat maneuvers ...

Name Violation ...

Thank you *so* much. This is precisely the kind of thing tha tI was looking for. I didn't have any idea that Pathfinder had these feats. Hm. Pretty awesome, man. It's a prefect fit! It seems as though I will be able to do all of the coolest stuff from that PRC at even earlier levels than before!!

I am a little bit confused though ... Improved Whip Mastery, and Prehensile Whip seem to have a similar effect to me. The PC could use the whip to grab onto things. I've read them, but, could you give me a little specific advice on why they're different, and one would be a free action to detach, whilst the other would be a full round action to detach?

These are right on the money, though!
As a side note, are there whip-daggers in PFRPG, and/or other similar weapons?
Also, I wonder ... how would you simulate the following abilities?

  • Crack of Fate/Crack of Doom: At 3rd level, a lasher can take one extra attack per round with a whip. At 8th level, a lasher can take two extra attacks per round with a whip.
  • Lashing Whip: At fourth level, the lasher adds a +2 damage bonus to her whip. (Weapon Specialization, right? Seems straightforward)
  • Stunning Snap: A lasher can use a whip or whip dagger to stun a creature instead of inflicting subdual or normal damage.
  • Death Spiral: At 10th level, the lasher gains transcendental understanding of her whip or whip dagger.
    Once per day, she can spin the whip over her head with supernatural speed. All foes within a 15-foot radius of the lasher must make a Reflex save against a DC equal to the lasher’s attack roll. Opponents who fail are stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. Stunned opponents must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 18) or become helpless for 1d4–1 rounds (minimum 1 round).

Cheliax

prehensile whip is a trait, not a feat. every character gets 2 traits (from different categories) at character creation

Cheliax

depends which route you wanna go. casters can just cast haste, or you can get a weapon of speed certain fighter archetypes can get an extra attack at high levels

stunning snap- let me look at some feats...

death spiral- whirlwind attack + some other stuff. I'll get back to you

Osirion

Name Violation wrote:
prehensile whip is a trait, not a feat. every character gets 2 traits (from different categories) at character creation

<eyeroll> D'oh! Wow. I can't believe I didn't catch that. I feel *so* lame! :) Right ... traits. Totally familiar with them, just re-read the line about ten times without realizing it said "trait", not "feat". Far too eager to look things up, I guess!

Hmm ... I'm thinking that a non-caster route is generally best. I hadn't ever planned on him having actual magical abilities.
... I'll check the boards peridoically, with bated breath, seeing what you come up with while I look stuff up too!

Taldor

a monk with a ki-focused whip could deliver his stunning fist thru the weapon. might help for stunning snap.

a monk with 1 level dip of cleric with a favored deity weapon of whip can get you crusader's flurry feat and you can be a whip whipping fool with extra attacks.

death spiral might have some dazzling display correlation.

Quote:

Your skill with your favored weapon can frighten enemies.

Prerequisite: Weapon Focus, proficiency with the selected weapon.

Benefit: While wielding the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus, you can perform a bewildering show of prowess as a full-round action. Make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes within 30 feet who can see your display.

Taldor

would need levels of fighter to get the weapon spec. Magus grants fighter levels at lvl 10. monks can get monk levels at half value of their levels in other classes with Monastic Training feat. not sure who else grants them, or if a fighter arch might be a good match.

Osirion

Nezthalak wrote:

a monk with a ki-focused whip could deliver his stunning fist thru the weapon. might help for stunning snap.

a monk with 1 level dip of cleric with a favored deity weapon of whip can get you crusader's flurry feat and you can be a whip whipping fool with extra attacks.

death spiral might have some dazzling display correlation.

Quote:

Your skill with your favored weapon can frighten enemies.

Prerequisite: Weapon Focus, proficiency with the selected weapon.

Benefit: While wielding the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus, you can perform a bewildering show of prowess as a full-round action. Make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes within 30 feet who can see your display.

Hmm ... I hadn't ever considered a monk dip to get Stunning Fist. It's a bit odd fluff-wise, but, I am sure that I could find a way to justify it by describing it as something that isn't like a traditional monk's monastery.

... the extra attack from Flurry of Blows woud be good to replace the original "Crack of Fate" ability ... but, I don't know if I would take a monk dip just for it. Crusader's Flurry sounds kind of cool, but, I'm not certain about dipping in a fourth class. He's already intended to be a Rogue/Fighter to have a sneak attack. (A whip doesn't do a whole heck of a lot of damage!) I mean, it would solve the issue of replacing the Crack of Fate, and the Stunning Snap abillities, but, I'm not sure if that's worth two levels.

... I'm gonna have to give this more research and thought.

Cheliax

To be honest, sneak attack isnt as powerful of a damage dealer as you think.

2 hand the whip for bonus to power attack damage.

i think blackblade magus works if you take the arcana for swift action haste

keep in mind both magus and arcane duelist bard can add abilities to their weapons to make them more powerful.

also Channel spell + 15 ft reach is nasty.

Andoran

Skip the rogue levels. If you want to do damage, stick with fighter. I wouldn't dip into monk, either, as you can't use a whip with flurry...since it isn't a special monk weapon. Though, I think a Weapon Adept may be able to...not sure since APG isn't in front of me right now.

Two hand the whip, like Name Violation said, power attack. For the extra attack, get Haste from somewhere. Maybe a whip of speed? With Power Attack and a ridiculous strength, you're whip will do plenty of damage. When you're adding +40 from bonuses, does it really matter if you roll a d4 or a d12?

Cheliax

if you plan on using fighter

DAwnflower dervish lets you move and make full round attacks, and extra attacks. Mobile fighter does similar. Lore wardens are the combat masters. you humiliate your opponent by tripping him, disarming him when he tries to get up, and smacking the crap outta them

weapon master is good, but i wouldnt recommend it for this build. a lot of the abilities are based on crits, too circumstantial


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This product has a Black Snake archetype that's all about whip mastery. It's different from Paizo archetypes in that these archetypes can be taken by any class for giving up a set package of class abilities.


W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:

Alright all you power-bilding guys and gals!

Bits to consider/weigh:

Fighter (lore warden archetype)
Magus (kensai)
Monk (maneuver master)

Traits: prehensile whip, blade of mercy
Feats: EWP: whip, WF: Whip, Whip mastery, Improved & greater Whip mastery; Improved Trip/Disarm/Sunder, Greater Trip, weapon finesse, Combat Reflexes, Quickdraw, Fury's snare & fury's fall, Combat Expertise, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Whirlwind (eventually).
Side feats: enforcer & something to boost intimidate (if you have something free).

A human Fighter7/Magus3/Monk3 can come close to all of the above and that list can be paired down if needed.

Stat buy (for the above):
STR 07
INT 14
WIS 14
DEX 19
CON 14
CHA 07
With level bumps to DEX.

-James

Cheliax

james maissen wrote:
W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:

Alright all you power-bilding guys and gals!

Bits to consider/weigh:

Fighter (lore warden archetype)
Magus (kensai)
Monk (maneuver master)

Traits: prehensile whip, blade of mercy
Feats: EWP: whip, WF: Whip, Whip mastery, Improved & greater Whip mastery; Improved Trip/Disarm/Sunder, Greater Trip, weapon finesse, Combat Reflexes, Quickdraw, Fury's snare & fury's fall, Combat Expertise, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Whirlwind (eventually).
Side feats: enforcer & something to boost intimidate (if you have something free).

A human Fighter7/Magus3/Monk3 can come close to all of the above and that list can be paired down if needed.

Stat buy (for the above):
STR 07
INT 14
WIS 14
DEX 19
CON 14
CHA 07
With level bumps to DEX.

-James

7str? yikes. better grab a bag of holding and the agile enchantement asap

Osirion

Yeah, I don't think I wanna take a -2 to damage.

The other stuff here is looking great. I kin of like the idea of making him a monk/clreic for the sake of Stunning Fist and Flurry of Blows with a whip ... I don't think that I really know enough about a magus to play one. But both of those don't really fit the concept of the character.

I originally took the level of rogue for the skills, I think. I'm gonna look up the Arcane Duelist Bard, because that would fix the thing about skills, certainly, but again, the whole spellcasting thing. Although, that does sound more interesting than the others. He is a gypsy after all. But, I feel I would be doing the character a great disservice. He actually has had ranks in Perorm(flute) when I made him back in 3.0. But, I can't see him really doing that in combat in lieu of fighting.
The Dawnflower Dervish doesn't get the cool stuff that applies to full attacks until 11th level, so that's kind of out.

Name Violation ... The Channel Spell thing sounds mighty interesting. Especially at 15'. [Edit: although, now that I've gone to look for it, I can't figure out what it is, or where it comes from.]

Just an odd thing: would it be a problem,
(especially for PFS) to say that it is a coachman's carriage whip rather than a bullwhip? I can't imagine that it would, but, I'm just looking for RP options.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Whips aren't for damage--they're for control. Try out enlarge person, Lunge, and duel-wielding scorpion whips with the full TWF chain--as soon as you and your DM can agree on the reach and threatened range of a Large creature with a Large whip using Lunge. (Whirlwind Attack is also fun with this, as mentioned earlier, only more so due to the crazy reach.)

Edit: Forgot, scorpion whips are light, whips are not. Would have to go two weapon archetype to use the regular whips, and I'm not certain you get the extra reach with even a scorpion whip without bumping it to One-Handed Weapon-land due to the "as a whip" clause.

Osirion

Alright ... I've looked up a couple of things, now, and I am certain that I am likely to avoid the Rogue, even for skills and sneak attack.
... and I can clearly see why the Magus is being recommended. Because, it's fraught with awesome, and made of win.
I kind of like the idea of a Hexcrafter, since he's a gypsy (Varisian?), and that's more thematically right, but, the Kensai looks awesome, too. Fighter/Mages happen to be my favorite multiclass ... er, um, Fighter/Arcane Spellcaster, in contemporary parlance. Now, I just have to justify re-imagining the PC's RP to allow for magic. But, still ... that would create quite a loss of feats, there.

Blahpers ... I originally made him with TWF (whip and handaxe). But, that was back when a whip was a ranged weapon, and he needed something for close-quarter fighting. I absolutely have to concede that the TWF archetype is awesome. Especially as you pointed out with enlarge and the whip, and Whirlwind Attack if it could be had. (Is that really possible? 10' natural reach, with 20' more for the weapon? Threatening 30'! Holy crap!)

See ... now I have to start filtering all of these suggestions! There's so much here, it can't possibly all fit into one character concept/build!!


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Whip master says "get down", everybody gets down. : D


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You are clearly looking for Pain Taster. Enjoy.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Holy crap. Sneak attack damage without having to set up sneak attack? O_O And with a whip's reach?

Edit: Aww, too bad it caps at 2d6. Still, makes a whip that much better for whirling.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

the entry pre reqs are scary though :)

Unbreakable makes a good entry.

Cheliax

Glutton wrote:
You are clearly looking for Pain Taster. Enjoy.

DAmn it. i knew i forgot somethhing


Name Violation wrote:


7str? yikes. better grab a bag of holding and the agile enchantement asap

He won't carry much, but PF has many things to improve carrying capacity.

And frankly the whip build is not about dealing damage, but rather tripping.. and this build will trip anything without an exemption.

Moreover 7STR and 14WIS or 14STR and 7WIS? If you prefer the WILL save that lowered go for it.

Sure you can pick up the agile enhancement for when you want to deal some damage (say to sunder later on), but the build is more tripping everything and disarming a large number of them in the process.

-James

Cheliax

james maissen wrote:
Name Violation wrote:


7str? yikes. better grab a bag of holding and the agile enchantement asap

He won't carry much, but PF has many things to improve carrying capacity.

And frankly the whip build is not about dealing damage, but rather tripping.. and this build will trip anything without an exemption.

Moreover 7STR and 14WIS or 14STR and 7WIS? If you prefer the WILL save that lowered go for it.

Sure you can pick up the agile enhancement for when you want to deal some damage (say to sunder later on), but the build is more tripping everything and disarming a large number of them in the process.

-James

why do we have to have a 14 and 7? whats wrong with 10 and 11?

i'd go with 11 str, 10 wis, get an item of +2 str so i could pick up power attack


Name Violation wrote:


why do we have to have a 14 and 7? whats wrong with 10 and 11?

i'd go with 11 str, 10 wis, get an item of +2 str so i could pick up power attack

For this build I don't see power attack being all that useful. But for low strength builds like this there's always 2 levels of ranger if you really *have* to have power attack.

But frankly I'm overspent on feats as it is.

If the potential to have power attack and 15lbs more light encumbrance is worth losing 2WILL save, perception and the like then go for it.

Personally control builds will draw will saves like two-handed damage builds as they both are fighters that get DM attention, so since I have trouble fitting in iron will I thought I'd go with a natural version of it.

-James

Osirion

Alright ... so, Here's what I'm thinking by 3rd level (FTR3-Lore Warden). (5 feats if he's human)

  • Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip
  • Weapon Finesse
  • Weapon Focus
  • Whip Mastery
  • Combat Expertise Free from Lore Warden)
  • Improved Trip

I would also like to take up the following:

  • Quickdraw
  • Weapon Specialization
  • combat Reflexes
  • Improved Whip Master, and Greater Trip
  • Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two weapon Fighting

The only thing is that I don't know if I should try and get this second set in at the same time, or work on these after I have the first set, specifially the Two-Weapon Fighting.

What say you? Is a Dex-Fighter/Lore Warden a good build for a "Lasher"?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Why quickdraw?

Osirion

Hmm ... It's mostly because of the original build I had in mind. Because I want him to use Light Axe in his offhand so that he has the option to throw it, and if he does, I want him to be able to pull another at will.


Have you considered making a bard who uses whips? Looking at the pictures your PC is good at using a flute. Since Bards have a decent charisma score, it just screams using dazzling display.

Treamonk has a great Bard guide (although it only covers core material). If you go the controller bard route, your essentially the face of the party who walks around looking real threatening, disarming people, intimidating them, using bard spells to Battlefield control, bardic music to inspire.

edit: Here's the link scroll down to the controller bard to see how it plays out.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test2

Osirion

Sub_Zero wrote:
Have you considered making a bard who uses whips? Looking at the pictures your PC is good at using a flute. Since Bards have a decent charisma score, it just screams using dazzling display.

I had briefly considered making a bard ... but, the PC wasn't ever really concieved as a spellcaster. The flute is basically for "Day Job" checks. It's just a fun little way to sink skill points for RP, and make the character a little more interesting.

I did look up Dazzling Display, though, and it looks really rather cool. I hadn't seen that before, and it really does seem interesting. Though the "Death Spiral" ability of the Lasher mentioned earlier in the thread is far more powerful, Dazzling Display goes a little way toward being a low-grade replacement. It makes me consider Whirlwind Attack" for use in combination with the Dazzling Display. :D THere's another one for consideration! Ugh! Too many!

The only thing that I don't get, however, is why you are saying that it has to do with Charisma. I can't find that Dazzling Display is screamed by having a high Charisma score. ??? Is it just because Intimidation is a Charisma skill?


W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:


The only thing that I don't get, however, is why you are saying that it has to do with Charisma. I can't find that Dazzling Display is screamed by having a high Charisma score. ??? Is it just because Intimidation is a Charisma skill?

If you will use a full round action you want to succed. The highrer the charisma the better.


W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:

Alright all you power-bilding guys and gals!

I'm building a gypsy-type character, and I want to update him to Pathfinder RPG. ... originally, he was a "Lasher", with all of the attendant whip-tricks and such. He was an Agility Fighter/Rogue. The build concept was proving to another player that a fighter was just as viable with an agility build, and he was based specifically on the ability to trip with his whip and then quick-draw a handaxe and hit the tripped foe with it. In 3.5, I used a "Exotic Weapons Master" from the Complete series to simulate a build for him that never got played.

So ... can some of you out there make suggestions for a build in PFS? Especially a PRC? I'd like to have him be able to do some decent DPR, but the primary focus is the gypsy whip-wielder theme, especially being able to do tricks.

Just for fun and reference, *here's* an illustration of the character that I drew. It might help with the theme.

Wow! That is some good art work!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

"If" you went bard I'd go with dervish dancer.
I'd go fighter1(for whip proficiency)/bard rest.

Rain of Blows (Su): At 6th level, a dervish dancer can use his battle dance to speed up his attacks. When making a full attack action, he may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding, as though under the effects of a haste spell. He also gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and on Reflex saves. At 9th level, and every three bard levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. These bonuses do not stack with the haste spell. This ability replaces suggestion and mass suggestion.

Osirion

mage4fun wrote:
Wow! That is some good art work!

Why, thank you!

I just finished doing a little work for the Paizo magazine Wayfinder, as well. So, a little giving back into the community, as it were. Look for it to come out around PaizoCon. (July 6th - 8th, i believe.)

Osirion

Nicos wrote:
If you will use a full round action you want to succed. The highrer the charisma the better.

Well, were I to use Intimidate, and the Dazzling Display feat, I would take the "Bad Reputation" Sczarni Trait. That way I don't have to tank an abililty score to get a high Charisma, and I still get a +2 to the Intimidation check.

Also, on the topic of other feats and such that would make for a good "Lasher", I just found these two (from the Rival Guide):

Holy crud, but those are cool! Imagine being able to Trip someone, *AND* place them wherever you want within a 49-grid-square (7x7)area! I bet that the other players wouldn't mind finding a way to use this like placing the BBEG in charge distance, instant flank, pulling him from behind a rank of minions, or even dropping them off a cliff or something! And they can be gotten by 4th level! Holy cow!

Qadira

WKristophNolen wrote:
Blahpers ... I originally made him with TWF (whip and handaxe). But, that was back when a whip was a ranged weapon, and he needed something for close-quarter fighting. I absolutely have to concede that the TWF archetype is awesome. Especially as you pointed out with enlarge and the whip, and Whirlwind Attack if it could be had. (Is that really possible? 10' natural reach, with 20' more for the weapon? Threatening 30'! Holy crap!)

I'm playin a whip fighter now (jasper boswell) and i think your doin all right.

Just one thing on range and threaten...
Reach and threaten are two separate things.
-normal unarmed ATT (+unarmed strike)=range and theaten 5'
-lunge+unarmed ATT(+unarmed strike=range and theaten10'
-normal whip (no whip mastery)=threaten 0' range 15'
-whip with whip mastery= threaten 5' range 15'
-whip with whip mastery and lunge= threaten 5' range 20'
-whip with imp. whip mastery= threaten 10' range 15'
-Whip with imp. whip mastery and lunge=threaten 10' range 20'
And thats not even going into Large range and theatend areas...
As i understand it when you prevoke an AoO (ie greater trip) you can only take advantege of that AoO if you threaten them, thus a greater range isnt all that great if you cant take advantage of that greater range.
But also remember, enlarge person dosent lengthen your whip it just extends your natrual reach by 10'. "-whip with imp. whip mastery= threaten 10' range 15' " turns into T 20' R 25'.

Andoran

A couple of things:

Human Lore Warden Fighter 3:
Feats: Human, Level 1, Fighter 1, Fighter 2, Lore Warden bonus COmbat Expertise, Level 3.

SO: 1st level - 3 feats
2nd level - 2 feats (including Combat Expertise)
3rd level - 1 feat

@Jasper: Whip Mastery doesn't allow the whip to threaten yet. It takes Improved Whip Mastery at BAB+5 to get a threatened area with a whip, which is, as you stated, 10'.

However, if his PC holds that handaxe in addition to the whip, he can take any AoOs he gets with the handaxe, since it does threaten.

Essentials for a Dex-based combat maneuver build:
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Weapon Finesse or Agile Maneuvers (depending on weapon)
EWP: Whip (Bard gives this for free)
Weapon Focus: Whip (required for Whip Mastery chain)
Whip Mastery (requires BAB +2, as well)
Improved Whip Mastery (BAB +5, gives AoO ability)
Power Attack or Piranha Strike (Str 13 allow PA, which is the better one of the two, especially once you can generally two-hand your whip)

Agile (weapon enhancement from Pathfinder Society Field Guide, allows the use of Dex for damage instead of Str, note that you will, at some point, be making damaging attacks on your targets, when prone and disarmed, for example)
Dueling (two versions, one from APG, one from PSFG, both good for combat maneuver types)

Optional:
Improved/Greater Trip
Improved/Greater Disarm

Why optional? Because you only need them for two reasons, neither terribly strong for a Lore Warden with a whip: a bonus to the maneuver, and being able to perform the maneuver against a foe who threatens you.

The right add-ons, like the PSFG Dueling, and the Lore Warden's innate bonus to CMB, make the extra bonus form the feats unnecessary. Nice, but not that needed.

And, with a 15' reach, you can do a lot of tripping and disarming outside of the threatened area of your opponent. And, as a light armor wearer, you don't weant to be in easy attack range.

Indeed, when Improved Whip Mastery kicks in, it gets a bit absurd, if done right. Trip foe at 15' mark. They can stand up without provoking from you, but, in order to attack you, they have to spend their Standard to move next to you, provoking when trying to leave the 10' range. Pow, tripped again.

Your next turn, you full attack them while they are prone, then 5' step back to do it again. No real need for the actual combat meneuver feats, in my experience.

I did a Strength build Lore Warden, using a whip, and the 11th level version has a +31 to disarm, and a +29 to trip. Wiuthout the combat maneuver feats.

Osirion

Alrighty ... so ... between those last two posts, I had a lot to read and whatnot.

Jasper Boswell wrote:
Just one thing on range and threaten... [awesme reach dissertation].

Well, aside from that being more than "one thing", I really appreciate the breakdown. I hadn't really realized that a weapon doesn't technically get more reach, even though it is enlarged. That's not so much of an issue for the whip, but it is really important for another of my PCs, so thanks.

Nevertheless, your item by item breakdown is handy to read.

Kinevon wrote:
Essentials for a Dex-based combat maneuver build: [... and a bunch of other cool stuff]

... thanks for the specifics. There were several things I looked up in your post that I hadn't seen before. I think that you're generally right about the feats for improved combat manuevers, but, I think that I may be giong with reposition, maybe in addition to trip.

That dueling enchantment is absolutely awesome. I hadn't any idea that there was something like that. And it specifically mentions that it can be used to do reposition manuevers! Even better!I'm certain that I like the PSFG a whole lot better, so, I'm glad that it's the more recent source, and there can't be any variance on which version of the weapon enchantment to use. I'm breaking these down, and looking at planning what I want to have for the character, because there's just too much to get. ... and it seems if I get one thing, I have to sacrifice another.
I'm looking at these combinations at 4th level and beyond:
  • Two Weapon Fighting/Improved two Weapon
  • Improved/Greater Trip
  • Improved/Greater Disarm
  • Improved/Greater/Quick Reposition
  • Improved/Greater/Quick Dirty Trick
  • Serpent Lash/Greater Serpent Lash
  • Dazzling Display, Whirlwind Attack (with three 3 feat chain)

In looking at other threads, I like the idea of an Achaeologist Bard, but I wish there was some way to be a non-spellcasting bard, with fighter feats. I think that the biggest reason that I am having difficulty with this biuld is that I want to do too many things with it. I mean, I could fit everything in by about 13th to 15th level, but, I kind of want him to be strong in the 5th to 10th range.

Osirion

What would be the next best thing to a Bard without the spellcasting?

But, still a viable option for two-weapon fighting?

But not without many skill choices?

That isn't going to die without more than light armor?

That's a decent Dex-based build?

Andoran

W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:
What would be the next best thing to a Bard without the spellcasting?

Do you mean a class with good Knowledge skills, but doesn't have spellcasting?

Lore Warden Fighter
Ranger using a non-spellcasting archetype

W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:
But, still a viable option for two-weapon fighting?

Both of the above

W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:
But not without many skill choices?

Both of the above

W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:
That isn't going to die without more than light armor?

Both of the above get good hit dice, and can spend a feat or two for heavier armor choices.

W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:
That's a decent Dex-based build?

Both of the above.

For social skills, you'll probably want to look at the spellcasters, since most builds that make Charisma useful for more than 3-4 skills are also Charisma-based casters. Like Bards. ;)

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