Well... at the end of the day Crane Wing is a good feat, and crane style is a good feat. But it is just a one attack swing in the action economy. I can build a fighter with a 40+ AC, and he will get hit less often than the monk with crane style. So is Armor Class overpowered?Its impossible to run the odds given the available data, but it is worth remembering that the character with Crane Wing has AC, too. So, of the attacks which get past his AC, he blocks one with Crane Wing.
But he invested 2~4 feats in it. And/or gave up his main offensive tool (FoB).
Meanwhile, his martial friend got Power Attack, Iron Will and Combat Reflexes... Or whatever feats he wanted.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can be hit for ten millions points of damage by a fireball...until you save vs Reflex and take none.
Dang them monks/rogues/rings of evasion wearers. Clearly broken!
==Aelryinth
At least you have to roll something, a ref save. My biggest problem with crane style is that ther eis not roll involved. The same reason I have no problwm with snake style.
A CR 25 monster with a one really devastating hit can not touch the level 3 monk, it is absurd, IMHO.
I'd just like to point out that if the creature has one really devastating hit, it is not CR 25. Period.
He only gets to mix 3 styles at 8th level.
MoMS is a good archetype for multiclass Monks... Not so much if they stick to the class.
Snapping Turtle, Panther and Boar Styles are okay, but nothing to write home about.
He only gets to mix 3 styles at 8th level.I forget. Was there a reason we were sticking to 8th level?
Nope. But by the time he can do it, the ability is not that impressive.
Snapping Turtle, Panther and Boar Styles are okay, but nothing to write home about.I don't think I agree. 2d6 bleed on each of the enemy party members is pretty nice. The other two animals are just as nice.
Bleed damage is meh. Trying to cause bleed damage to multiple enemies is far less effective than simply focusing on 1 enemy at a time. Medium BAB and no means of boosting your to-hit is a pretty big hit to your offense, and damage bonuses are not very useful when you can't hit. Just ask Rogues.
Panther styles requires you to provoke lots of AoO to be effective... That's a pretty risky strategy. Snapping Turtles gives some minor defensive bonuses and the ability to make Grapple checks at -2... Which requires yet another extra feat to be useful. And Grappling reduces the effectiveness of other styles. Boar requires 2 successful attacks to deal that meh bleed damage. Which is a problem, seen as you have medium BAB and no FoB.
Oh, and losing FoB also means you're not only using up 1 item slot, but also paying twice as much on your weapon enhancement as everyone else.
Personally, I think Dragon and Snake is the best overall combinations. Crane is pretty good too. Panther, Tiger, Mantis and Boar are okay but not amazing. The other styles don't impress me at all.
A lot of creatures only have one single attack.
Some creatures have multiple weak attacks, and get hosed by damage reduction (which always work). Some othr creatures have a single powerful attack, and get hosed by Crane Wing (which not always work. The creature can get you flatfooted)
As i said I do not know about balance, but certainly the fact that crane style always works bothers me. Imho the ability shoudl work almost all times, but not always.That's the thing. It does not work all the time. It works once per round. Against one type of attack. Here are a few instances where it does not work:
No, no. That is a bad argument.
The feat deflect one melee attack per round, and that never fails. Spells, iteratives, ranged attacks do not affect my assertion casue those are not covered by the feat.
The feat always works for what it does.
There is a spell to counter this feat. It is called beguiling gift. Just hand the crane wing user a shield with beguiling gift and he has no free hand.
Or hand him something else that keeps him from using defensive fighting.
If you do the single dip for crane, MoMS is great
That can be true for a lot of classes.
My Grapple Barb Took 1 level of MoMS/Martial Artist to get Crane Style and improved unarmed strike.
Then 1 level of Unbreakable Fighter for Endurance/Diehard.
As a Human, its pretty nice to have 7 feats at level 3.
Of course that build needs them desperately... the prereqs for Stalwart are brutal.... but as a Grapple Barb you just dont have ANY AC so.. you need the DR. Hence the need to use the invulnerable rager archtype.
Hard to beat a barb grappler though
Hive totem gives +1 CMB/CMD for every 4 levels
Reckless Abandon is +1 CMB for every 4 levels
Best strength of all characters during a rage
Full BAB
Bonus attacks on grapple with animal fury
+40ish CMB by level 13-14
Of course, then someone casts Freedom of Movement and you just bark at them... but whatever.
The way a Monk boosts his BAB is to knock his target prone before hitting them or have his buddy casters buff him. Weapon finesse helps, too.
Monks don't have particularly good CMB, and they can't get the Great versions of maneuver feats. Hell, MoMS can't even get the Improved versions. Weapon Finesse is a trap feat for Monks. And "have his buddy casters buff him" is not a Monk ability, well, except maybe the ability to drain resources that could be used at more useful stuff, like buffing a good martial class, for example.
It is risky, not pretty risky. A lot about playing a monk depends on how tactically you can move him across the mat. He's analogous to the knight in a chess game.
If only moving around wasn't so inefficient. Full attack mechanics make it so that any martial character who can't pounce has to stand still if they want to be relevant. And no, Vital Strike doesn't come even close to fixing that.
But, improved grapple is a nice feat for a monk.
It's okay-ish. Monks are not particularly good at combat maneuvers. Unless you're comparing them to Rogues, I suppose. Maneuvers are also not very good at mid/high levels. Oh, and MoMS can't take Improved Grapple as a bonus feat either.
I'm not convinced 2d6 bleed is meh.
Go ahead and try to use it on a bunch of different enemies, then. See how well it fares compared to simply standing still and killing one at a time. Battles usually don't last long enough for bleed damage to make much of a difference... It's pretty cool, though.
And while Boar requires 2 successful attacks, you get a lot of attacks.
Not without FoB, you don't. And not if you move.
Just popping in to say that Snake Style has it's downfalls too. Like not being able to use two of the feats in the same round because they both use swift actions.
Pro of Crane Style: can stop even natural 20s. Then again, so can Mounted Combat and Deflect arrows...
Except for the Great versions of manuever feats, monks have as good CMB as fighters.
Monks don't have particularly good CMB, and they can't get the Great versions of maneuver feats.
No they don't. They don't get weapon training, duelist gloves or greater weapon focus. They don't get rage, favored enemy or smite evil either. They have the same CMB that *warriors*, not that fighters.
They do have some archetypes with nice perks (like ki throw, ability to do more than 1 grapple maneuver per round, or ability tp trip or grapple creatures huge or larger. But hos cmb isn't as good as full bab chars
I did mention ki throw in my post. However as I said, while they have some nice perks, their CMB is lower than those of Full BAB clases
You can be hit for ten million points of damage critically and in all ways fatally until... a wave of your hand, dismissing it.You can be hit for ten million points of damage critically, shot through the eye until....a wave of your hand, dismissing it.
To be fair, there are a few different factors to consider with Deflect Arrows:
-Multiple highest-iterative attacks are more common with ranged than melee attacks (due to Rapid Shot being more ubiquitous in ranged characters than Two-Weapon Fighting is in melee).
-fewer Bestiary creatures use archery than use melee attacks.
-It's easier to take away a foe's melee iteratives with mobility, e.g. Spring Attack.
It's not quite apples to apples. Overall I think it would be hard to sustain the argument that the ability to deflect a single ranged attack per round is as powerful as the ability to deflect a single melee attack per round.
Does that mean Crane Style is overpowered? I dunno, probably not. It's not like people line up for Deflect Arrows, so being better than Deflect Arrows (which I think Crane Style is) isn't actually a bad sign. I haven't played with a PC using Crane Style yet though.
My Grapple Barb Took 1 level of MoMS/Martial Artist to get Crane Style and improved unarmed strike.
As a heads-up for anyone else reading, keep in mind that MoMS and Martial Artist both alter Perfect Self. Lord Malkov probably got a special dispensation to use both archetypes from his GM, but you couldn't use these two together without asking (or in PFS).
Except for the Great versions of manuever feats, monks have as good CMB as fighters.
No, they don't. Their CMB is as good as Warriors. Maybe. Ki Throw doesn't do anything to raise your CMB and it doesn't work at Large enemies or bigger, and those are very common beyond 6th level.
Hell, MoMS can't even get the Improved versions.I believe they can, just not as bonus feats.
Yeah, try and afford that Int 13 when you already need 4 attributes to work.
Weapon Finesse is a trap feat for Monks.why?
Because it makes Monks even more MAD and reduces their damage output. It's not a good build, unless you get an Agile AoMF, but you'll have to survive 6~7 levels without that, and you are now depending on a very specific item.
Full attack mechanics makes it so that any martial character who can't pounce has to stand still if they want to be relevant. And no, Vital Strike doesn't come even close to fixing that.Panther does and Dimensional Dervish just demolishes that problem.
Dimensional Dervish is a terrible feat chain. It comes into play way too late to make any difference. Panther still means you're provokin lots of AoO. That's not a very good tactic.
Not without FoB, you don't. And not if you move.the extra attacks from Panther, Snap Turtle Clutch, Snake Fang, etc. all work while moving and can activate Boar bleed. That's probably the main reason I prefer MoMS even though it sacrifices FoB.
Too bad no FoB means your to-hit is about as good as a Rogue's. Which is to say, not good at all.
My Grapple Barb Took 1 level of MoMS/Martial Artist to get Crane Style and improved unarmed strike.As a heads-up for anyone else reading, keep in mind that MoMS and Martial Artist both alter Perfect Self. Lord Malkov probably got a special dispensation to use both archetypes from his GM, but you couldn't use these two together without asking (or in PFS).
That's correct... this was really about flavor... 1 level of martial artist didn't give me anything... I jyst wanted to write it down to use the fluff concept that the character was not a traditoonal neditative sort of monk... but just a fist fighter.
Taking MoMS for 1 level at first level would have the same effect and enable the build. You don't lose anything for being an ex monk.
You can also avoid monk altogether and take 2 levels of unarmed fighter. At first level you then have endurance diehard IUS and crane style. At second you take imp grapple. You also don't gimp your BAB. That way is only 6 feats by third level but still works very well.
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Weapon Finesse makes Monks even more MAD and reduces their damage output. It's not a good build, unless you get an Agile AoMF, but you'll have to survive 6~7 levels without that, and you are now depending on a very specific item.
It's not quite that bad - you can get an Agile AoMF without having to put a base +1 enchantment on it first, so it only costs 4000GP. I bought mine (back when it cost 5000GP) on my 11th chronicle sheet; by that time I had the requisite 18 fame, and had earned enough gold that 5000GP was still within the 'not more than 50% of wealth on a single item' guideline. Fortunately monks don't have many other expenses - in fact I bought a Belt of Dexterity +2 at about the same time.
Wasn't the boss fight in Jurassic Park a pack of velociraptors while the T-Rex saved the humans (albeit not intentionally)?That's why I restricted it to "solo boss fights". Because if your solo boss fight in a Jurassic Park campaign is not a motherf@*@%ing T-Rex, you're doing it wrong! ^^Then good for him. The PC is really good against a T-Rex. So...? Unless the campaign consists of solo boss fights in Jurassic Park, Crane Wing won't be a problem. At all.Actually, Crane Wing would be terrible in that campaign.
Velociraptors have pounce and three primary and one secondary attacks.
Nah... The velociraptors were the PCs. That's why they are so... Clever. And so much more interesting than the human characters,
The campaign ended in a TPK.
:(
This reminded me of the old Jurassic Park game for the Sega Genesis where you could play as either Dr. Grant the human or a velociraptor. :D
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It's not a good build, unless you get an Agile AoMFWhy do you believe that?
Because floating like a butterfly and stinging like a butterfly is not very useful.
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The truth of the matter of people thinking a single melee class feat or ability being OP is that they really don't understand the mechanics of the game. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat so to speak and something like Crane Style being unbalanced is laughable at best and outright being totally clueless at worst.
It's funny because there are so many people on these forums who immerse themselves in the rules and do know the truth of this. We get too many trolls on the forums and too many people who are too proud to admit when they are wrong that they hang on and supply unsound arguments to the contrary even though 99% of the others agree they are wrong.
Ki Throw doesn't do anything to raise your CMB and it doesn't work at Large enemies or bigger, and those are very common beyond 6th level.A monk with this feat can affect creatures larger than his own size by spending 1 ki point per size category difference.So, you seem to be in error.
Because spending 1 ki point per size category is such a great deal, huh? It still doesn't make your CMB any better.
You really only need two; Dex and Wis. Damage can be obtained from elemental fist, Boar Style, archetype specials such as Drunken Strength, and other non-strength sources.
Those feats do not compensate for low Str. Neither does the damage scaling from IUS. Even if they did, you'd still need a huge feat investment and the spending of limited resources to keep up with a Str-based build. And you'd still deal less damage. And you also need Con to survive melee. And Int (and a bunch of feats, which MoMS can't take as bonus feats), if you plan to use combat maneuvers.
It's not a good build, unless you get an Agile AoMFWhy do you believe that?
Because it's true. With an Agile AoMf, your damage output is terrible.
Dimensional Dervish is a terrible feat chain. It comes into play way too late to make any difference.The monk can have dimensional dervish at 17th level. That's not too late to make a difference. But, dimensional dervish demolishes the problem you're referring to with full move. Dimensional Agility is enough to kill that problem.
You honestly think a feat that comes at 17th level doesn't come too late to make any difference? Okay, then... Enjoy your 4 levels of not standing still. Dimensional Agility allows you to make 1 attack after using DD, since you used a Move Action teleporting. That's about as good as walking by the creature. It also costs 2 points of his precious Ki.
Panther still means you're provokin lots of AoO. That's not a very good tactic.Its a very good tactic as long as you're dishing out more than you're taking (which the monk is) and can stop the AoO attacks when you need to (which the monk can).
Not really. You're still taking a lot of damage, and you d8 and lowish Con won't keep you alive for long.
Too bad no FoB means your to-hit is about as good as a Rogue's. Which is to say, not good at all.At 10th level, you're only -1 to hit relative to your FoB. Not really a big problem.
Except you're making half as many attacks and spending just as much gold. Because you lost FoB.
You can be hit for ten million points of damage critically and in all ways fatally until... a wave of your hand, dismissing it.You can be hit for ten million points of damage critically, shot through the eye until....a wave of your hand, dismissing it.To be fair, there are a few different factors to consider with Deflect Arrows:
-Multiple highest-iterative attacks are more common with ranged than melee attacks (due to Rapid Shot being more ubiquitous in ranged characters than Two-Weapon Fighting is in melee).
deflect arrows also deflect two shots in one with manyshot
Just popping in to say that Snake Style has it's downfalls too. Like not being able to use two of the feats in the same round because they both use swift actions.
Combat Style Master is a damn good Feat mmmhmmm.
The monk can have dimensional dervish at 17th level. That's not too late to make a difference. But, dimensional dervish demolishes the problem you're referring to with full move. Dimensional Agility is enough to kill that problem.
The vast majority of campaigns end at or before 16th level, either because they're running an AP, the campaign collapses beforehand, the homebrew adventure ends, or the GM doesn't want to deal with the hair pulling nature of post-16th combat (by the by, this is the stated reason WHY APs end at 16th, they're too hard to design after that).
So, you have exactly 1 level to play with Dimensional Agility, and never quite achieve Dervish in most campaigns you're likely to ever play.
Just popping in to say that Snake Style has it's downfalls too. Like not being able to use two of the feats in the same round because they both use swift actions.Combat Style Master is a damn good Feat mmmhmmm.
One that shouldn't be necessary, IMHO.
You were wrong. As for accessibility of ki points, my current drunken master MoMS quingong seems to be having no shortage.
Good for ya. I still doubt he has that many ki points. And Ki Throw still doesn't make your CMB any better.
There are ways to increase damage without needing strength. Elemental fist and Drunken Strength are two.
Oh, there are ways to increase your damage. They just aren't nearly as effective as having a good Str score.
No, you don't. You just need to take little damage relative to your total hit points.
"Little damage relative to your total hit points" is a very low number when you have d8 HD and low Con. Especially when you're provoking AoO all the time.
So, you're unable to articulate your reason. Yeah, that's convincing.
Lol. Wut? Are you complaining because of a typo? Or do you simply like to ignore my arguments?
None of the "ways to increase your damage" you suggested are very good. They are ineffective and/or require that you spend limited resources. You are the one suggesting a guy with medium BAB and no way to buff his own accuracy can compensate having low Str because he can cause 2d6 bleed damage when he hits 2 attacks in the same round.You know what... I don't care. This conversation is boring. Go on and believe whatever you want.
As for accessibility of ki points, my current drunken master MoMS quingong seems to be having no shortage.
...
There are ways to increase damage without needing strength. Elemental fist and Drunken Strength are two.
So, you're relying on these?
Let's say you're a 10th level Monk.
You have 18 Wis, so you've got a solid 9 Ki, with a possible 4 Drunken Ki (that last for 1 hour).
You want to rely on Drunken Strength and Elemental Fist for your damage. So we're assuming you're not TWFing for the moment.
On a single strike, you're dealing 1d10+1d6 [elemental]+2d6 [Drunken Strength].
So, there's your attack. An average of about 25 for that single hit. Assume you have 22 Dex and a +2 Agile amulet, that bumps up to 32 on that single hit, and then you have one iterative at an average of 13. Because you can't use Elemental Fist more than once per round, and Drunken Strength takes a Swift.
So you've got one attack at +16 or so (+6 Dex, +7 BaB, +2 amulet, +1 Weapon Focus?), then one at +11, for an average of 45 per round if both attacks hit. This consumes resources. If you have Dragon Style (which is a bit of a waste without a Str focus, but whatever), you bump that up by another 2d6, for an average of 52 per round if both attacks hit.
Meanwhile, let's compare to a Str based character. 3/4 BaB as well to be fair, let's say an Inquisitor wielding a Greatsword.
22 Str, +3 weapon (equivalent to yours, but half the price), weapon focus, +7 BaB. So he has +17 to-hit on the first swing, and +12 on the second.
Average of 19 damage a swing, 38 per round if both hit. No consumables used, no Power Attack.
Power Attack drops his to-hit to 1 below yours (+15/+10), but boosts his damage to +25 per swing, for +50 total per round. 2 below yours. Still no consumables used. Should we bring in Judgement, Bane, and the like? Maybe assume he has the Destruction (Rage) Domain? Its a good one. Any buff spells?
On top of that, the Inquisitor brings more to the table OUT of combat than your Monk does, with his extra skills, skill boosts, and spells. With similar or superior damage output, not using any consumables.
And your Ki still can't last forever. If you're using Elemental Fist and Drunken Strength EVERY round, you're using 2 Ki a round, and one ability you only have 10 of per day.
Average 3 round combat, 4 combats a day, by the end of the day you're out of Elemental Fists. But hey, not Ki. No, lessee.
3 round combats, means you probably don't have Drunken Strength for the last round each combat (since I know you don't have Fast Drinker...your Con isn't high enough from what you said).
So you're using an average of 4 Ki per combat, minimum, just to keep up in damage. Not factoring in any Ki powers you might wanna use, like Barkskin, True Strike, or what have you.
But no, you're right, your Ki isn't likely to run out before the end of the day. It just isn't helping you that much to begin with.
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...if your solo boss fight in a Jurassic Park campaign is not a motherf@*@%ing T-Rex, you're doing it wrong!
....The velociraptors were the PCs. That's why they are so...clever. And so much more interesting than the human characters...The campaign ended in a TPK.Moral of the Thread:
If you play the Jurassic Park adventure path, make sure your party includes a velociraptor monk with Crane Wing.
Make it dragonstyle and you have a deal.
Charge pounce claw claw bite talon talon!
With the retraining rules and the FAQ based on them you can get the whole dimensional dervish line at level 12 for 1800 gold and 15 days. ;)
You want the Crane Style workaround? Use a creature with reach. Monk can't get in there to fight defensively until the big baddy gets his swing.
You can fight defensively without being in melee with a creature you know. You just need to spend the appropriate action and make an attack. That attack doesn't have to be against a creature.
I see it done all the time.
As for accessibility of ki points, my current drunken master MoMS quingong seems to be having no shortage.
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There are ways to increase damage without needing strength. Elemental fist and Drunken Strength are two.
So, you're relying on these?
Let's say you're a 10th level Monk.
You have 18 Wis, so you've got a solid 9 Ki, with a possible 4 Drunken Ki (that last for 1 hour).
You want to rely on Drunken Strength and Elemental Fist for your damage. So we're assuming you're not TWFing for the moment.
On a single strike, you're dealing 1d10+1d6 [elemental]+2d6 [Drunken Strength].
So, there's your attack. An average of about 25 for that single hit. Assume you have 22 Dex and a +2 Agile amulet, that bumps up to 32 on that single hit, and then you have one iterative at an average of 13. Because you can't use Elemental Fist more than once per round, and Drunken Strength takes a Swift.
Not to shoot down your argument, but where are you getting 25 damage?
The average of d10+3d6 is, like 16. Not 25. All those dice look impressive, but they really aren't. It bumps up to 25 IF you somehow manage to invest 36k GP at 10th level in ONE item (your +2 Agile Amulet of OMFGhowmuchdiditcost?).
That's a +4 Sword for a non-monk, with 4k left in change for a Str belt+2.
So now not only is the inquisitor hitting much harder then you, he's also hitting more because his weapon bonus is +2 higher then yours. And, yes, he ignores cold iron, silver and adamantine DR.
==Aelryinth
You want the Crane Style workaround? Use a creature with reach. Monk can't get in there to fight defensively until the big baddy gets his swing.You can fight defensively without being in melee with a creature you know. You just need to spend the appropriate action and make an attack. That attack doesn't have to be against a creature.
I see it done all the time.
i.e. I declare defensive fighting and charge!
I declare fighting defensively and retreat!
I declare...you get the picture. Fighting defensively is a style of combat. You don't actually have to be fighting 'fighting' to be defensively fighting, but you must be READY to fight, i.e. not spellcasting.
And since it does no good when you are flat-footed anyways, no reason to be defensive fighting out of combat.
-==Aelryinth
As for accessibility of ki points, my current drunken master MoMS quingong seems to be having no shortage.
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There are ways to increase damage without needing strength. Elemental fist and Drunken Strength are two.
So, you're relying on these?
Let's say you're a 10th level Monk.
You have 18 Wis, so you've got a solid 9 Ki, with a possible 4 Drunken Ki (that last for 1 hour).
You want to rely on Drunken Strength and Elemental Fist for your damage. So we're assuming you're not TWFing for the moment.
On a single strike, you're dealing 1d10+1d6 [elemental]+2d6 [Drunken Strength].
So, there's your attack. An average of about 25 for that single hit. Assume you have 22 Dex and a +2 Agile amulet, that bumps up to 32 on that single hit, and then you have one iterative at an average of 13. Because you can't use Elemental Fist more than once per round, and Drunken Strength takes a Swift.
Not to shoot down your argument, but where are you getting 25 damage?
The average of d10+3d6 is, like 16. Not 25. All those dice look impressive, but they really aren't. It bumps up to 25 IF you somehow manage to invest 36k GP at 10th level in ONE item (your +2 Agile Amulet of OMFGhowmuchdiditcost?).
That's a +4 Sword for a non-monk, with 4k left in change for a Str belt+2.
So now not only is the inquisitor hitting much harder then you, he's also hitting more because his weapon bonus is +2 higher then yours. And, yes, he ignores cold iron, silver and adamantine DR.
==Aelryinth
I...can't remember. I'd have to look at my post again.
I also felt crane style was OP when I first saw it, because I compared it to the similar parry-ability of the duelist PrC. Crane style does pretty much the same, but without skipping your attack, and without rolling. I think they should both be similar and made as an attack of opportunity to counter the attack (and with riposte follow through with the same AoO, or maybe roll again to hit against AC).
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I also felt crane style was OP when I first saw it, because I compared it to the similar parry-ability of the duelist PrC. Crane style does pretty much the same, but without skipping your attack, and without rolling. I think they should both be similar and made as an attack of opportunity to counter the attack (and with riposte follow through with the same AoO, or maybe roll again to hit against AC).
The duelist feature sucks big time. Making Crane Wing dump into dust to balance them is like burning everybody's money to balance the wealth gap between rich and poor people.
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I think that this might be one the most entertaining threads I've read in a while. I just got my PFS-legal Aldori Swordlord to level 12. The Crane Style chain is fun, but it's not all that. For monks it's taking up quite a few of their feats. For fighters, it's not as bad.
With my character, I was focused on high AC and disarming opponents. In some scenarios, I could jump in the middle of the fight, disarm my enemies and let my allies mop up. My overall damage output was rather low. I could hit often but not hard. However, when the BBEGs sword is 15' behind me thats not going to be a big issue.
However, when we were up against beasties I would often become the backup fighter. With the low damage output, I would usually set up flanking for the more direct damage fighters or serve as a blocker for the archers and casters.
Being able to deflect one attack per melee is cool, but when you have 4 or 6 attacks coming at you per round do you just deflect the first one that hits you, or do you hold out for the critical that's going to pop up? It's up to the GM to assess the combat at hand and utilize the monsters with some basic tactics. If the enemies see me deflect and disarm some of there buddies, they should obviously start targeting other PCs and let there archers and casters deal with me.
So as with most things, Crane Style isn't overpowered, it's just different. Most things that aren't normal tend to be misunderstood.
Except archers, they should be BANNED FOREVER!!!!
ok, for those of you who are saying that Monks are unable to do damage and are bad fighers even if built properly, I would like to point you over to the thread "Monks are better than fighters at higher levels" and find any of Lormyr's builds....
People are still arguing about this? What's the point? I'll tell you, Crane Style isn't OP. Period. See how easy that is?
I don't see it as OP on a PC at all, but it doesn't fit that well with how I view the pathfinder metaverse. I really enjoy it being a system where NPCs strictly speaking have almost the same options as PCs, and if our group meets a group of fighters where everyone can deflect a melee attack per round, and maybe even one ranged, it's really no fun playing the fighter or barbarian of our group. They can focus fire casters, we can focus fire one at a time, but if it ends in a draw, with a low level hard melee hitter vs the low level deflect arrow and crane stylist, the rest of the fight is not even up to the dice. A major deity of swordplay still misses on that one attack. I don't like that. The same goes for deflect arrows, but I have never seen it used. When Corellon Larethian fires his bow of awesome on a level 2 monk, he hits. What I'm saying, I guess, is that there should really be a way of overcoming it, although on the other hand, in the universe where every fighter and monk has this, I guess feint finally becomes useful.
The earliest even a monk can get the Crane Style feat Crane Wing to just deflect is level 5 as a monk or BAB +5. The earliest you can get Crane Riposte is level 7. This is the one that deflects and allows for an attack.
SMDH :/ I will never understand the people in these forums whining over every little thing and not even trying to think of other things that can overcome what they perceive as OP.
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The earliest even a monk can get the Crane Style feat Crane Wing to just deflect is level 5 as a monk or BAB +5. The earliest you can get Crane Riposte is level 7. This is the one that deflects and allows for an attack.
Actually a human MoMS can get the entire chain of crane style by level 2, if all your feats are burned into this.
l1dodgeh1crane style
m1crane wing
m2crane riposte
Still, it isn't OP.
I don't see it as OP on a PC at all, but it doesn't fit that well with how I view the pathfinder metaverse. I really enjoy it being a system where NPCs strictly speaking have almost the same options as PCs, and if our group meets a group of fighters where everyone can deflect a melee attack per round, and maybe even one ranged, it's really no fun playing the fighter or barbarian of our group. They can focus fire casters, we can focus fire one at a time, but if it ends in a draw, with a low level hard melee hitter vs the low level deflect arrow and crane stylist, the rest of the fight is not even up to the dice. A major deity of swordplay still misses on that one attack. I don't like that. The same goes for deflect arrows, but I have never seen it used. When Corellon Larethian fires his bow of awesome on a level 2 monk, he hits. What I'm saying, I guess, is that there should really be a way of overcoming it, although on the other hand, in the universe where every fighter and monk has this, I guess feint finally becomes useful.
This is the sort of thing I don't get. I mean, from a theatrical perspective, that God of Swordplay can still roll a 1 on his or her attack roll right? I mean, the example I gave before was a 46 AC, but a stalwart defender could easily get over 50-55. A Hekatonkheires Titan... which arguably IS a Battle God and has +38/+33/+28/+23 on its attacks.
So my fighter has a 46 AC at level 15 up against a CR 24 Battle God. The fighter chooses to fight defensively to get up to 49. This Battle Titan will need rolls of 11, 16, 20, 20 to hit the fighter.
A monk at 15 with +5 bracers of armor, a good +4 RoP, who is dex based (say 28 dex, why not) fighting defensively with full crane and wearing monks robes has an AC of 37. The battle god hits him on 2/4/9/14
Run the math and you get an average number of hits per round of 0.75 against the fighter and 2.55 against the monk. Crane takes 1 of those off the top, so 1.55
The monk still gets hit twice as often as the fighter