"Crane style is unbalanced"


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Crane Style is no defense against necroposting.


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KestlerGunner wrote:

Crane Style should have an added sentence that notes that it does not function against a creature more than two size categories larger than you. Can you Crane Style an Ogre? Sure. Can you Crane Style a Storm Giant? Prepare to lose your hand.

Patch it Paizo!

Or rather leave it as it is! Zing!


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They should really put a material component cost on raise thread.


A Melee Class Working At Level 8 and 50,000 GP=BROKEN, BROKEN, BAN!

Arcane Classes Dominating 50 percent of the game=Give them more.

Melee Can't Have Nice Things, Its The Paizo Way.


KestlerGunner wrote:

Crane Style should have an added sentence that notes that it does not function against a creature more than two size categories larger than you. Can you Crane Style an Ogre? Sure. Can you Crane Style a Storm Giant? Prepare to lose your hand.

Patch it Paizo!

A) Storm Giants are only huge, a mere 1 size category larger than ogres.

B) Crane Wing works once a round and not against something like a stomp, or bite, or whatever.
C) There's support for the idea of smaller critters being harder to hit by bigger ones (AC/attack penalties above medium, bonuses below medium). This feat's capability is a logical extension of that.
D) A halfing monk using Crane Wing to smack aside a vital strike from a raging thanatopic titan is both hilarious and awesome.

Conclusion: this feat chain's uses are neither ubiqitous or OP.

Liberty's Edge

Cerberus Seven wrote:
B) Crane Wing works once a round and not against something like a stomp, or bite, or whatever.

Except that it does work against stomps, bites, and whatever.

Quote:
C) There's support for the idea of smaller critters being harder to hit by bigger ones (AC/attack penalties above medium, bonuses below medium). This feat's capability is a logical extension of that.

No, smaller creatures are harder to hit because there is less of them to hit. There's a reason the saying is "broad side of a barn" as opposed to something like "broad side of a flee."

That said, it is funny that people arguing against this feat being OP are doing so from the stance that melee players need nice things since this feat is specifically designed to screw over melee players.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KestlerGunner wrote:

Crane Style should have an added sentence that notes that it does not function against a creature more than two size categories larger than you. Can you Crane Style an Ogre? Sure. Can you Crane Style a Storm Giant? Prepare to lose your hand.

Patch it Paizo!

Yes, and while you're at it, make armor and shield bonuses to AC meaningless against larger creatures, because what good is a shield against a club the size of a house?


I think relative to the investment it is overpowered, however Monks need some love aside from Zen Archers... Snake Style feels more balanced to me.

The Exchange

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It's less OP than vanish and blend. Both are lvl 1 spells. 3+ feats should totally beat a lvl 1 spell.

Ack, I failed my save against this thread again.


Grenouillebleue wrote:

Fighting defensively, my AC (with bracers of armor +3, ring of protection +2, barkskin from ki) was 31.

10 + 3 (dex) + 3 (wis) + 1 (dodge) + 2 (ring) + 3 (barkskin)+ 2 (monk bonus) + 3 (armor) + 4 (defensive).

Most of the mooks could only hit me on a 20, while I had four attacks (+14/+14/+9/+9 for 1d10+7) unbuffed.

Can you post the build?


strayshift wrote:
I think relative to the investment it is overpowered, however Monks need some love aside from Zen Archers... Snake Style feels more balanced to me.

I disagree, at the normal levels you gain access to it crane style sits somewhere from okay to darn good. The only thing that makes it OP is when it's used in conjunction with MoMS to get it at level 2 or 3 that's a bit of a problem but that's always been true of getting the ability to use things that are level locked for free.

That being said the only reason the rest of the party thought it was OP was that:

1) You used the best archetype for a monk ever no seriously Qinggong made the monk's abilities a million times less useless and I love it for it.

2) The DM skipped all of your weak levels aka 1-5ish when you have trouble getting solid AC and damage because you lack access to your good class abilities and magic items, then he compounded it by giving you free WBL choice of your magic items instead of you having to deal with those being dropped items that don't work for you since they're so specific.


ShadowcatX wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
B) Crane Wing works once a round and not against something like a stomp, or bite, or whatever.
Except that it does work against stomps, bites, and whatever.

Yeah, I looked that up afterwards. My bad!

ShadowcatX wrote:
Quote:
C) There's support for the idea of smaller critters being harder to hit by bigger ones (AC/attack penalties above medium, bonuses below medium). This feat's capability is a logical extension of that.
No, smaller creatures are harder to hit because there is less of them to hit. There's a reason the saying is "broad side of a barn" as opposed to something like "broad side of a flee."

The feat essentially says that you are using your own agility and motion to move an incoming attack just slightly away so it doesn't hit. Since a smaller thing is harder to hit in the first place, or as you put it "there is less of them to hit", it's easier to find a place to move the incoming attack that isn't occupied by you. That's the point I was trying to make. Sorry for not explaining better.

ShadowcatX wrote:
That said, it is funny that people arguing against this feat being OP are doing so from the stance that melee players need nice things since this feat is specifically designed to screw over melee players.

How do you figure? The ONE monk enemy I remember using a style feat chain on us in the 5-6 years my extended group has been playing Pathfinder was a vampire using Panther Style. If he had had the ability to negate a single melee attack against one of our melee members, it would have made the fight go on maaaaayybe another two rounds. If anything, this seems to be something nice that was tossed the way of monk PCs.


gnomersy wrote:
strayshift wrote:
I think relative to the investment it is overpowered, however Monks need some love aside from Zen Archers... Snake Style feels more balanced to me.

I disagree, at the normal levels you gain access to it crane style sits somewhere from okay to darn good. The only thing that makes it OP is when it's used in conjunction with MoMS to get it at level 2 or 3 that's a bit of a problem but that's always been true of getting the ability to use things that are level locked for free.

That being said the only reason the rest of the party thought it was OP was that:

1) You used the best archetype for a monk ever no seriously Qinggong made the monk's abilities a million times less useless and I love it for it.

2) The DM skipped all of your weak levels aka 1-5ish when you have trouble getting solid AC and damage because you lack access to your good class abilities and magic items, then he compounded it by giving you free WBL choice of your magic items instead of you having to deal with those being dropped items that don't work for you since they're so specific.

No matter how good my sense motive I can be hit/critical hit OR...

I can dismiss this utterly. Something no one else can do...

That is not overpowered?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
strayshift wrote:
I can dismiss this utterly. Something no one else can do...

Except those dudes with Deflect Arrows.

strayshift wrote:
That is not overpowered?

Nah.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
strayshift wrote:
I can dismiss this utterly. Something no one else can do...

Except those dudes with Deflect Arrows.

strayshift wrote:
That is not overpowered?
Nah.

Or Snake Style.


Apologies - multitasking - I was referring to Snake Style.

And yes, it is overpowered.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Nah. Not really.


Oh man I negated one attack from the seven headed hydra. So broken. This is really only a bit more useful than deflect arrows and nowhere near as cool as Snake Style.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Nah. Not really.

HUGE respect for your ability from your previous posts where we often agree BUT in this respect I personally think you are wrong.

Namaste.


strayshift wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
strayshift wrote:
I think relative to the investment it is overpowered, however Monks need some love aside from Zen Archers... Snake Style feels more balanced to me.

I disagree, at the normal levels you gain access to it crane style sits somewhere from okay to darn good. The only thing that makes it OP is when it's used in conjunction with MoMS to get it at level 2 or 3 that's a bit of a problem but that's always been true of getting the ability to use things that are level locked for free.

That being said the only reason the rest of the party thought it was OP was that:

1) You used the best archetype for a monk ever no seriously Qinggong made the monk's abilities a million times less useless and I love it for it.

2) The DM skipped all of your weak levels aka 1-5ish when you have trouble getting solid AC and damage because you lack access to your good class abilities and magic items, then he compounded it by giving you free WBL choice of your magic items instead of you having to deal with those being dropped items that don't work for you since they're so specific.

No matter how good my sense motive I can be hit/critical hit OR...

I can dismiss this utterly. Something no one else can do...

That is not overpowered?

You state here that no one else can do it, when literally every character has within them the capacity of doing so. What is overpowered? It is slightly bothersome at low levels if you as a DM do nothing but target the MoMS who invested in it with one attack a round instead of swarming him or attacking other party members. Later levels it retains a small degree of usefulness against foes with iterative attacks but almost completely drops off when fighting foes with multiple natural attacks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
strayshift wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Nah. Not really.

HUGE respect for your ability from your previous posts where we often agree BUT in this respect I personally think you are wrong.

Namaste.

I figured that if you've read the thread you've already heard my view on it, so there's no reason to rehash it all when you already aren't convinced. :)


You can be hit for ten million points of damage critically and in all ways fatally until... a wave of your hand, dismissing it.


strayshift wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Nah. Not really.

HUGE respect for your ability from your previous posts where we often agree BUT in this respect I personally think you are wrong.

Namaste.

Definitely NOT OP. This doesn't make them hit harder or kill better than a PC optimized to do so. So what if they can deflect an attack and hit for a 1d10+7 one time per round? That's child's play dude.

You think that's strong? Look at a dazing assault barbarian at level 12-13 who has the Come and Get Me rage power with combat reflexes. THAT is a much more powerful build which some could genuinely call OP.

Now compare any melee class vs a spellcaster at higher levels. You think that one deflect with an immediate piddly 1d10+10 even compares to the the dreaded 20d6 fireball, disintegrate, or power-word kill?

I always find it soo funny what people find OP in this game, especially when you have god-wizards out there and someone complains about a lowly monk being OP. Nope, they are actually underpowered when compared to some of the other classes out there. Period.

Grand Lodge

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strayshift wrote:
You can be hit for ten million points of damage critically and in all ways fatally until... a wave of your hand, dismissing it.

You can be hit for ten million points of damage critically, shot through the eye until....a wave of your hand, dismissing it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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You can be hit for ten millions points of damage by a fireball...until you save vs Reflex and take none.

Dang them monks/rogues/rings of evasion wearers. Clearly broken!

==Aelryinth


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Necessary investment:

- 3 feats or one specific archetype that loses the class' main offensive tool.
- Has to fight defensively. Which hurts even more when you lost Flurry of Blows!

How to defeat the "OP" Crane Style...

- ranged attacks
- spells
- iterative attacks
- natural attacks (blocking the first claw attack of the Dire Tiger who can attack 2 or 3 times with claws and bite is not that helpful)
- multiple enemies
- area effects

All of these are extremely common.

Seriously, what the hell is OP here? If you want to complain about OP sutff, complain about SoL spells and so many others that can completely derail the campaign.


Aelryinth wrote:

You can be hit for ten millions points of damage by a fireball...until you save vs Reflex and take none.

Dang them monks/rogues/rings of evasion wearers. Clearly broken!

==Aelryinth

Aelrynith likewise: respect but ... yeah he rest. Although rogues? do they get less love than monks?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

:)

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
All of these are extremely common.

You forgot one:

- ignore the crane and murder his allies

Grand Lodge

Query: Could a level 5 monk use crane style to slap away a charging Tarrasque's +39 to hit bite with the swallow whole ability?


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Hey, Rangers get Evasion, too.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
KestlerGunner wrote:
Query: Could a level 3 monk use crane style to slap away a charging Tarrasque's +39 to hit bite with the swallow whole ability?

Answer: Yes.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
KestlerGunner wrote:
Query: Could a level 3 monk use crane style to slap away a charging Tarrasque's +39 to hit bite with the swallow whole ability?
Answer: Yes.

And then he dies the very next round.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KestlerGunner wrote:
Query: Could a level 3 monk use crane style to slap away a charging Tarrasque's +39 to hit bite with the swallow whole ability?

- Can a level 3 Monk even have Crane Style (Didn't you first post it as "Level 1 Monk?")?

- Doesn't the Tarrasque have a fear aura?
- How did the Monk get into melee range to fight defensively? Did he tumble against the Tarrasque's CMD?
- Even if all those things aligned in favor of the Monk, the Tarrasque has more than one melee attack.


I've played a Tengu Hexcrafter Magus with Deflect Arrows and Crane Style/Crane Wing/Crane Riposte.

I'm now 14th level in Shattered Star.

I've used Crane Riposte's ability to counter-attack once in four levels. Most often I'm flying and shooting arrows, or flying and Evil Eyeing someone and then flanking them for the two weapon fighter.

There have been encounters (creatures that use Move By Attack that I deflect) where I've been largely invulnerable...but:

If you double move, you lose Crane Style (you're not making an attack roll, you're not fighting defensively)

If you cast a spell that doesn't have an immediate attack roll with it, you lose Crane Style.

It does make closing with a held charge of Intensified Shocking Grasp entertaining...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
And then he dies the very next round.

I didn't want to state the obvious. :)


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Why are we even talking about this? Don't discussions like these invite 'he who shall not be named' to come over and nerf the Monk?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

magnuskn wrote:
Hey, Rangers get Evasion, too.

damn! Rangers are broken, too?

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

You can't reduce negative infinity any further.

Grand Lodge

Magnuskn:
1. No.
2. No.
3. He's not fighting defensively against the Tarrasque, he is in the Total Defense action as soon as he sees Rovagug's Chosen appear on the horizon 300 feet away.
4. Next round he dies, assuming the Tarrasque is not just going to slay a team member instead. For the moment though, the monk can sit amazed that he just slapped away the charge attack of a colossal terror lizard birthed from the God of Destruction itself.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
And then he dies the very next round.
I didn't want to state the obvious. :)

You probably should, though... At least in this thread.

I mean, none of the ways I listed to bypass Crane Style is some underhanded dirty trick hidden in the footnotes of some ancient 3pp splat book. They are things like "ranged attacks" and "attack more than once".

If we have to give that sort of suggestion, stating the obvious is probably necessary.


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At this point there is a dramatic pause and the god wizard deigns to save humanity yet again and the players go home content that the normal order of things means that their mortgage payments at least match 1/100000th of a politicians appearance fee.


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Sorry was I being political?


Dabbler wrote:
Well with a shocking grasp it's like being attacked with a taser: block it and you get shocked anyway!

?? You can block a taser the same way you can block a knife


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strayshift wrote:
You can be hit for ten million points of damage critically and in all ways fatally until... a wave of your hand, dismissing it.

Question - this somehow strains credulity for you more than a 1st level human commoner being able to block bullets with his bare hands (i.e. Deflect Arrows)? Or say another commoner who despite not having trained with weapons a single day in his life is able to automatically stop a bite from the almighty tarrasque with a piddly little frame of leather and wood (i.e. Tower Shield)?


I don't feel it is overpowered at such a high feat cost. Indeed it is the very thing for a Mythic Vital Strike


ShadowcatX wrote:
That said, it is funny that people arguing against this feat being OP are doing so from the stance that melee players need nice things since this feat is specifically designed to screw over melee players.

This is a feat that help a melee class against 99% of the monsters in the bestiary, while hurting melee characters against 1 specific build.

Let's compare it with Mirror Image, and now tell me again that Crane Wing screw melee players...


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Fun is when your Magus uses Mirror Image and has Crane Wing queued and Deflect Arrows.

Sovereign Court

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8th level? you think -1 for +4AC is good? Make that caharacter 1 lvl of Monk (MoMS) and 7 levels of Fighter (Aldori Swordlord) and he is taking -0 to attack and gaining +8 AC while doing a full attack, plus having the free negate hit from Crane Wing. Add in Combat Expertise with the Threatening Defender trait and now your taking -1 to hit for +10 AC :)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Good, he might even be able to do his job then.

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