Charm Person - How Powerful Is This?

[nosig]

0gre wrote:

nosig wrote:

Just because he's an ally is no sign he's a friend...

Which is ultimately where role-play on the GM's part comes into play. In some situations it might make a lot of sense for an NPC to switch sides in which case it's awesome. In other cases you have NPCs who are fiercely loyal to each other. That's the judges call. Hopefully there is enough information in the scenario to steer him on this issue.

and there is a Judge open to the possibility - with players willing to adapt to what the Judge presents and not one side saying

"It woulds like this!"
and the other saying
"but the RULE says..."

it's more like -
"Please protect me!" says the pretty elf lady
"Sure! I'm glad you asked" says the Barbarian - who steps around one enemy to lay into that scumbag Joe - who he knows just happens to have favored enemy "pretty elf lady", and he owes money...

[McDrax]

I was i a PSF game. 3 players a Wizard, Cleric and a Ranger The Boss fight: First Round Boss charm Wizard, the Wizard was using a wand of magic miss on The cleric and ranger the hole combat 6-7 rounds he did more dam than the "bard" boss.
Is it PVP when the GM is using a Player char to dam/kill the other players with charm person. And can a player kill his frinds char if the GM charm him or is that PvP.
In that fight if we had killed the wizard first less dam to us. the bard boss harder to hit than the wizard and did less dam.

[Eric Brittain]

I have played an infernal sorceress (highly focused around charm / dominate) to level 12 and have found that any of the Charm line of spells will be highly situationally variable.

You will need to be able to read the judge, the other players, their PCs, the situation you find yourself in as well as your opponents.

You need to read the judge to ensure that your actions will even function in the game world. This is best handled by asking them at the beginning of the game.

You need to be able to ensure that the other players will not break or waste your spell. If you charm a baddie only to have a fellow player attack the baddy your spell was effectively wasted.

You need to be able to incorporate your actions in such a way that it does not conflict with the motivations / world views of the PCs being played at the table.

You also need to have awareness of the situation to determine if there is something in the environment that could be useful. This will also be useful in finding out how you can split us the enemy.

You need to be able to have some knowledge about the opponent since the Charm line of spells become much less useful if you can't communicate. This makes the Share Language spell even more useful.

With this character I do not think I ever used a charmed creature against its allies. In a specific combat I would usually take the tactic of charm to remove a creature from combat. Sometimes even removing from the location entirely (go into that room and wait for me. I will make sure you are safe. [you want to either not lie or have a ridiculously high Bluff score for this tactic])

Suggestion is an even more powerful spell for the purpose of completely removing a creature from combat.

Sometimes the Charm spells will be very useful but in other situations they will be completely ineffective.

YMMV but if you read the full situation you are in and have some way to communicate (verbally or non-verbally) they can be extremely useful.

EDITED: To improve clarity

[Shalafi2412]

VRMH wrote:

Shalafi2412 wrote:

Is charm a better spell choice than hypnotism?

Yes and no. Hypnotism only shifts attitudes by two steps, and lasts just a few rounds. But the new attitude persists indefinitely with regards to a single request, and you can cast it from around the corner (it's a burst).

If you have to chose one or the other, go with Charm Person. But the true Enchanter has both in his repertoire.

This is all very true. In the whole time that I have played Pathfinder and D and D from 1st edition to 3.5 I do not think I have ever cast hypnotism with any of my mages.

[grandpoobah]

Eric Brittain wrote:

I have played an infernal sorceress (highly focused around charm / dominate) to level 12 and have found that any of the Charm line of spells will be highly situationally variable.

You will need to be able to read the judge, the other players, their PCs, the situation you find yourself in as well as your opponents.
.......
Sometimes the Charm spells will be very useful but in other situations they will be completely ineffective.

YMMV but if you read the full situation you are in and have some way to communicate (verbally or non-verbally) they can be extremely useful.

EDITED: To improve clarity

Eric makes the important point of getting a feel for the table before going nuts with charm effects. You'll save yourself a lot of heart-ache if you know in advance how the DM is going to react.

I play an urban druid, spamming charm person and suggestion. I've typically used Charm person as a post-combat interrogation tool:

"dear jim! I am so sorry for this mis-understanding. You see, the boss sent us to check up on you, but your buddies must have thought we were enemeies. The Boss forgot to tell us where the MacGuffin was and what guards/traps were there. Can you help me out?"

Coupled with a good Bluff, Charm Person can be useful to get info out of humanoid henchman in Fight #1 to best prepare yourself for the rest of the adventure. It's also an easy way to facilitate talking to non-cooperative NPCs. I've also used it to convince an NPC to do a faction mission task for me.

Generally, I use Suggestion in combat - it's a much more powerful spell, and depending on the GM, my standard "surrender to us and answer all our questions truthfully" is a great way to take out a tough combatant AND get good information on the rest of the module.

Charm is great, I love it - but I try not to take it too far. I never use it in combat (to avoid DM/Player arguments), and mostly use it for information and to speed things along.

[Shalafi2412]

I have a 3.5 telepath that is fashioned after Emma Frost, the White Queen of the X-MEN and the Hellfire Club, and she uses Charm Person as a telepathic power all of the time.

[Shalafi2412]

grandpoobah wrote:

Eric Brittain wrote:

I have played an infernal sorceress (highly focused around charm / dominate) to level 12 and have found that any of the Charm line of spells will be highly situationally variable.

You will need to be able to read the judge, the other players, their PCs, the situation you find yourself in as well as your opponents.
.......
Sometimes the Charm spells will be very useful but in other situations they will be completely ineffective.

YMMV but if you read the full situation you are in and have some way to communicate (verbally or non-verbally) they can be extremely useful.

EDITED: To improve clarity

Eric makes the important point of getting a feel for the table before going nuts with charm effects. You'll save yourself a lot of heart-ache if you know in advance how the DM is going to react.

I play an urban druid, spamming charm person and suggestion. I've typically used Charm person as a post-combat interrogation tool:

"dear jim! I am so sorry for this mis-understanding. You see, the boss sent us to check up on you, but your buddies must have thought we were enemeies. The Boss forgot to tell us where the MacGuffin was and what guards/traps were there. Can you help me out?"

Coupled with a good Bluff, Charm Person can be useful to get info out of humanoid henchman in Fight #1 to best prepare yourself for the rest of the adventure. It's also an easy way to facilitate talking to non-cooperative NPCs. I've also used it to convince an NPC to do a faction mission task for me.

Generally, I use Suggestion in combat - it's a much more powerful spell, and depending on the GM, my standard "surrender to us and answer all our questions truthfully" is a great way to take out a tough combatant AND get good information on the rest of the module.

Charm is great, I love it - but I try not to take it too far. I never use it in combat (to avoid DM/Player arguments), and mostly use it for information and to speed things along.

I have tried to do that but with some of my group members it does not work. They will kill prisoners rather than allow me to get information out of them.

[ciretose]

The chart in this link didn't get carried over from 3.5 to Pathfinder core, but since it is the basis for the current, it is useful in informing intent.

Friendly meant, and I would argue means "Wishes you well" and you can expect a friendly character "Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate."

This makes sense for the spell to be balanced.

[Charlie Bell]

Charm person can cause charmed targets to attack their former allies, but not by default. Some groups are just prone to backstabbing and infighting and it's plausible that the members would suddenly attack each other.

The better way to accomplish it is through skillful Bluff checks or perhaps illusions. Bluff: "that's not your ally, it's really a doppelganger! Quick, help me kill it before it gets you!" Admittedly, that should probably involve a negative modifier on the Bluff check.

The bigger issue with combat use of charm person is the +5 on saves in combat. That effectively makes the save DC 10 flat for a caster whose prime stat is 18. 10 is trivial for most non-mook monsters to make.

Also protection vs. X spells completely block exercise of mental control from charm person.

[Shalafi2412]

The person that is charmed would remember being charmed wouldn't they?

[Eric Clingenpeel]

Chaosthecold wrote:

in 3.5 it was an issue....but not nearly as bad as it is now since putting an ioun stone in a wayfinder 'grants you protection from mental control'....

Going to more gamedays I see people more and more who think they are immune to almost all enchantment spells and effects and it actually hurts my enjoyment of the game that some people abuse these rules in this fashion....

The biggest two components I have to defend why these people are wrong is... READ THE BOOK.....and ARE YOU FLIPPING KIDDING ME?!

Under the enchantment school in the core rulebook:

Charm: A charm spell changes how the subject views
you, typically making it see you as a good friend.
Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act
in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some
compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the
effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the
subject’s actions when you cast the spell, AND STILL OTHERS GIVE YOU ONGOING CONTROL OVER THE SUBJECT.

The other glaringly obvious one is the spell Mind Blank. You know that eighth level spell that used to grant you immunity to all mind effecting spells and effects? What is that you say? It doesn't even do that anymore? What makes you think a first level spell does?

Please god.... If anything... I volunteer to be the official 'slap you in the face for thinking the rules work like that' person for PFS...

I believe this is supposed to go here. I didn't write it, just putting it where it was supposed to go, AFAIK

[Matthew Pemrich]

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

I believe this is supposed to go here. I didn't write it, just putting it where it was supposed to go, AFAIK

Was just about to do this very same thing.