Lets create a real "support" character

[Cheapy]

Just a note, Inspire Courage doesn't have a range, so is not affected by Stone Singer. I don't think there's much support for an interpretation that it'd halve the distance penalties of Perception checks that are technically required to hear inspire courage.

Not that anyone makes players roll a perception check every round to get the benefit.

[WalterGM]

Cheapy wrote:

Just a note, Inspire Courage doesn't have a range, so is not affected by Stone Singer. I don't think there's much support for an interpretation that it'd halve the distance penalties of Perception checks that are technically required to hear inspire courage.

Not that anyone makes players roll a perception check every round to get the benefit.

Legit call, thanks!

I was looking for an open feat slot to grab Flagbearer so that when I was doing something else with my performance, some people could still get the morale buff. So that'll slide nicely into that spot.

Do you think a GM will be upset if Tassel's flag is a symbol of the Pathfinder Society? Thus granting all his allies within 30 the bonus? :P

[WalterGM]

Whew, took some time. Used some shorthand, only grabbed items I thought were neat. But here's the list in case others ever want to do the same.

Mundane Items:

Acid (1 flask) 10 gp, 1 lb. – 1d6 points of acid damage, splash weapon
Alchemical Grease 5 gp, 1 lb/15 – +5 bonus to Escape Artist, CMD to escape a grapple, lasts 4 hrs.
Alchemist’s Fire (1 flask) 20 gp, 1 lb.
Alchemist’s Lab, portable 75 gp, 20 lbs. – +1 circumstance bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks
Alkali Flask (1 flask) 15 gp, 1 lb/20 – like Acid flask, double damage against Oozes
Antiplague (vial) 50 gp, -- +5 alchemical bonus on Fort v. disease (1 hour) to prevent infection
Antitoxin (vial) 50 gp, -- +5 alchemical bonus on Fort v. poison (1 hour)
Arrow, Grappling 1 gp, ½ lbs – 30 ft range increment, has a rope attached to the end.

Bag, Waterproof .5 gp, ½ lb. – 10 rounds of immunity to water
Barrel (empty) 2 gp, 30 lbs – capacity: 10 cubic ft./650 lbs.
Barbed Vest 10 gp, 4 lbs – natural/unarmed attackers take 1 damage per hit (DC 15 reflex negates)
Bedroll .1 gp, 5 lbs
Bladeguard 40 gp – weapon immune to damage from oozes/rust monsters for 24 hrs
Blanket, Winter 5 gp, 3 lbs
Block and Tackle 5 gp, 5 lbs -- +5 circumstance bonus on Str to lift heavy objects
Bloodblock 25 gp -- +5 alchemical bonus on Heal checks for first aid, 10 doses
Bodybalm 25 gp -- +5 alchemical bonus on Heal checks for long term care, poison, disease
Book, Pathfinder Chronicle 50 gp, 1 lb -- +2 circumstance bonus on Knowledge XXXX
Book, Footprint Book 50 gp, 3 lbs -- +2 circumstance bonus to identify tracks
Bottle, Glass 2 gp, 1 lbs – capacity ½ pint, +1/5th lbs
Bucket (empty) .5 gp, 2 lbs – capacity 1 cubic ft. / 65 lbs
Butterfly net 5 gp, 2 lbs

Caltrops 1gp, 2 lbs – 5 foot square, +0 to hit, 1 damage, speed halved
Candle .01 gp
Case, Map or Scroll 1 gp, ½ lb
Chain (10 ft) 30 gp, 2 lbs -- hardness 10, 5 HP, burst: DC 26 Str
Chair, Folding 2 gp, 10 lbs – support 250 lbs.
Chalk (1 piece) .01 gp
Chalkboard 1 gp, 2 lbs
Charcoal .5 gp
Chest (empty, small) 2 gp, 25 lbs – capacity 2 cubic ft./200 lbs
Clothing, Cold-Weather Outfit 8 gp, 7 lbs - +5 circumstance v. Cold Weather
Clothing, Doctor’s Mask 50 gp, 2 lbs -- +1 circumstance v. airborne toxins/scent
Clothing, Doctor’s outfit 150 gp, 6 lbs -- +2 circumstance v. diseases
Clothing, Footwear, Cleats 5 gp, 2 lbs – reduce penalty for ice walking
Clothing, Footwear, Snowshoes 5 gp, 4 lbs – reduce penalty for snow walking
Clothing, Hot Weather Outfit 8 gp, 4 lbs -- +2 Fort v. Hot Weather
Compass 10 gp, ½ lbs -- +2 Survival to avoid being lost, +2 dungeoneering to navigate underground

Darkflare 1 gp – DC 15 Fort or loose darkvision for 1d10 rounds

Eyeglasses 5 gp

Firework, Skyrocket 50 gp, 1 lb/25 – 90 ft range, 2d6 fire damage, 10 ft. burst (DC 15 ref for ½)
Fishook .1 gp
Flag 10 gp, 3 lbs. – Flagbearer feat (CHA 15+): +1 attack, damage, saves against fear + charm
Flask (empty) .03 gp, 1 lbs
Flint and Steel 1 gp
Flotation Device 1 gp, 2 lbs - +1 circumstance bonus to Swim

Goggles, Smoked 10 gp -- +8 circumstance v. Visual attacks, -4 perception, opponents have concealment
Grenade, Fuse 100 gp – move action light, 2d6 bludgeoning, 1d6 fire in a 10 ft. burst (DC 15 ref for ½)

Herb/plant, Allnight 75 gp, -- eliminates fatigue for 8 hours and -2 skill checks, exhausted after
Herb/plant Garlic 1sp, 1 lb
Herb/plant, Shoanti barbarian chew 1 gp -- +1 round of rage, lasts 1 hour
Holy symbol, wooden 1 gp
Holy water ( 1 flask) 25 gp, 1 lb – 2d4 damage, splash weapon
Hourglass (1 hr) 25 gp, 1 lb
Hourglass (1 minute) 20 gp, ½ lb
Hourglass (1 round) 10 gp
Horn, signal

Ink (1 oz. vial) 8 gp
Inkpen .1 gp
Iron spike .05 gp, 1 lb

Jug, clay .03 gp, 9 lbs

Key, skeleton 85 gp – key can disable with a +10, one try, either works or never can
Kit, Disguise 50 gp, 8 lbs -- +2 disguise, 10 doses
Kit, Healer’s 50 gp, 1 lb-- +2 heal, 10 doses
Kite .1 gp, 1 lb

Ladder, folding (10 ft) 2 gp, 16 lbs – standard action to unfold
Liquid Ice (Flask) 40 gp, 2 lb/25 – 1d6 cold damage, splash weapon

Magnifying Glass 100 gp -- +2 circumstance appraise on small or detailed items
Manacles, masterwork 50 gp, 2 lbs – DC 35 escape artist, DC 28 Str, hardness 10, 10 HP
Map, Area 50 gp, 2 lbs -- +1 circumstance survival/knowledge dungeoneering to navigate that area
Marbles .1 gp, 2 lbs – 5 ft square, DC 10 reflex or fall prone
Mirror (small steel) 10 gp, ½ lb
Musical instrument, masterwork 100 gp, 3 lbs -- +2 circumstance to Perform

Paper (sheet) .4 gp
Parchment (sheet) .2 gp
Periscope 20 gp, 4 lbs – look around corners with diminutive bonus to stealth
Piton .1 gp, ½ lb
Plank, collapsible .4 gp, 10 lbs – hold 25lbs, 10 feet long. Standard to unfold
Pole (10 ft.) .05 gp, 8lbs.
Pole, Balancing 8 gp, 12 lbs -- +1 circumstance on Acro to balance
Powder (chalk) 1 cp, ½ lb

Ram, Portable 10 gp, 20 lbs -- +2 to Str to break open doors, allow another person to help (another +2)
Rope, hemp (50 ft.) 1 gp, 10 lbs—2 hp, DC23 burst
Rope, silk (50 ft.) 10 gp, 5 lbs. – 4 hp, DC 24 burst

Sack (empty) 1 sp, ½ lbs – capacity: 1 cubic ft./60 lbs
Scale, Merchant’s 2gp, 1 lb -- +2 appraise for items valued by weight
Sewing needle .5 gp
Sextant 500 gp, 2 lbs -- +4 survival to navigate above ground
Shield Sconce 1 gp, ½ lb – attach a torch to a shield!
Smelling Salts 25 gp – reroll against staggered condition, wake up dying PC. 12 doses
String (50 ft) .01 gp, ½ lb
Sunrod 2 gp, 1 lb – 30 ft. light radius, lasts 6 hrs
Swarmsuit 20 gp, 10 lbs – give you DR against small sized swarms

Tanglefoot Bag 50 gp, 4 lbs – thrown to entangle someone
Tent (pavilion) 100 gp, 50 lbs – 10 people, takes 90 minutes to assemble
Thunderstone 30 gp, 1 lb – 20 ft range, DC 15 or be deafened, -4 initiative, 20% verbal spell failure
Tool, Crowbar +2 str to open a door/chest
Tool, Grappling Hook
Tool, Masterwork 50 gp, 1 lb - +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check
Tools, Masterwork Thieves 100 gp, 2 lbs - +2 disable device
Torch .01 gp, 1 lb
Torch, Everburning 110 gp, 1 lb
Trap, Bear 2 gp, 10 lbs. -- Perception: 15, DD: 20, +10 melee 2d6+3 dmg, halve base speed

Waterskin 1 gp, 4 lbs – capacity ½ gallon, 4 lbs
Whetstone .02 cp, 1 lbs – spend 15 minutes to get a +1 dmg on your first hit, nonmagic only

Here's a list of the storage spaces he'll have as well

Storage:

Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath (5 gp) – weight: 1 lbs
- 1 wand sized or smaller item

Masterwork Backpack (50 gp) – weight: 2 lbs
- 60 lbs, 1 cubic ft.

Efficient Quiver (1,800 gp) – Weight: 2 lbs
- Arrow Pouch: 60 arrows
- Javelin Pouch: 18 javelins
- Bow Pouch: 6 spears, staves, etc.

Ammunition Costs
- Silver blanch cost (5 gp per 10 arrows) : 50 arrows = 27.5 gp
- Adamantine blanch cost (100 gp per 10 arrows): 50 arrows = 502.5 gp
- Cold Iron cost: 50 arrows = 5 gp

Handy Haversack (2,000 gp) – weight: 5 lbs
- Side Pouch (2x): 20 lbs, 2 cubic ft.
- Main Pouch (1x): 80 lbs, 8 cubic ft.

Bag of Holding
Type I 15 lbs. 250 lbs. 30 cubic ft. 2,500 gp
Type II 25 lbs. 500 lbs. 70 cubic ft. 5,000 gp
Type III 35 lbs. 1,000 lbs. 150 cubic ft. 7,400 gp
Type IV 60 lbs. 1,500 lbs. 250 cubic ft. 10,000 gp

And my scrolls/wands of interest so far

Scrolls n' Wands:

Wands.
Lvl 1: CLW, Enlarge Person, Grease, Infernal Healing (Lesser), Mage Armor, Reduce Person, Protection from Evil, Shield, Unseen Servant, Vanish (maybe)
Lvl 2: Invisibility, Knock, Align Weapon

Scrolls:
Level 1: Air Bubble, Ant Haul, Lead Blades
Level 2: Lesser Restoration, PFEvil (Communal), Shield Other
Level 3: Resist Energy (Communal)
Level 5: Breath of Life

Next I need some wondrous items and we're almost there!

[Alexander_Damocles]

Will Johnson wrote:

Don't forget a couple of cracked vibrant purple ioun stones. It's one of the few ways to "cast" personal spells on others. For 2,000 GP, you get a spell storage device that will hold a single level 1 spell. Handy for providing shield, Gravity Bow, and other personal spells off to folks who cannot UMD or cast them themselves.

Whoa. Seriously. *WHOA*.

[Mergy]

Keep in mind a scroll of communal PVEvil will only spread it around to three people, and it's a full round action to spread it around your allies, and they must all be adjacent to you.

For wondrous items, I nominate dust of dryness as something that can really put the hurt on water-based encounters.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Will Johnson wrote:

Don't forget a couple of cracked vibrant purple ioun stones. It's one of the few ways to "cast" personal spells on others. For 2,000 GP, you get a spell storage device that will hold a single level 1 spell. Handy for providing shield, Gravity Bow, and other personal spells off to folks who cannot UMD or cast them themselves.

Time to check the bank account and find out how many of these rascals I can afford...

[WalterGM]

Mergy wrote:

Keep in mind a scroll of communal PVEvil will only spread it around to three people, and it's a full round action to spread it around your allies, and they must all be adjacent to you.

For wondrous items, I nominate dust of dryness as something that can really put the hurt on water-based encounters.

Full round action? Standard action for that spell, is it not? Also, I'd probably only be tossing it on whoever is tanking the BBEG (and myself, and one other person if they're nearby), so up to 3 is plenty ;)

[WalterGM]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Will Johnson wrote:

Don't forget a couple of cracked vibrant purple ioun stones. It's one of the few ways to "cast" personal spells on others. For 2,000 GP, you get a spell storage device that will hold a single level 1 spell. Handy for providing shield, Gravity Bow, and other personal spells off to folks who cannot UMD or cast them themselves.

Time to check the bank account and find out how many of these rascals I can afford...

Yup, they're incredibly legit. In other news, I need a new descriptive word, "legit" is getting used way to much...

[Alexander_Damocles]

WalterGM wrote:

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Will Johnson wrote:

Don't forget a couple of cracked vibrant purple ioun stones. It's one of the few ways to "cast" personal spells on others. For 2,000 GP, you get a spell storage device that will hold a single level 1 spell. Handy for providing shield, Gravity Bow, and other personal spells off to folks who cannot UMD or cast them themselves.

Time to check the bank account and find out how many of these rascals I can afford...

Yup, they're incredibly legit. In other news, I need a new descriptive word, "legit" is getting used way to much...

You could always borrow Painlord's "piddlespottingly awesome" (and no, I'm not sure of the spelling there...).

[Mergy]

WalterGM wrote:

Mergy wrote:

Keep in mind a scroll of communal PVEvil will only spread it around to three people, and it's a full round action to spread it around your allies, and they must all be adjacent to you.

For wondrous items, I nominate dust of dryness as something that can really put the hurt on water-based encounters.

Full round action? Standard action for that spell, is it not? Also, I'd probably only be tossing it on whoever is tanking the BBEG (and myself, and one other person if they're nearby), so up to 3 is plenty ;)

I will find the rule for it now, but I'm pretty sure when passing any touch spell out to multiple targets, it becomes a full round action to do the touching.

They couldn't make it a full round action to cast communal spells just in case the caster wished to cast it only on himself.

Spell Range wrote:

Touch

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.

That's pretty oddly worded. I would interpret it as touching more than one target takes a full round, but I suppose it could also be interpreted as touching 5 creatures is a standard action, but 6 bumps it up to a full round.

[WalterGM]

Yeah, it is oddly worded. I dunno how I feel about it, but I'll keep that in mind. Maybe also keep some non communal scrolls for the clutch "need to cast it as a standard" fights and avoid any sort of table derailment.

Edit:
Thinking about swapping the 14 str for 14 dex and giving him a heavy crossbow, for the whole "KILL IT NOW, TASSEL!!" moments. Thoughts?

A UMD casting of true strike should help out the low chance to hit, especially when firing into combat :P

[Mergy]

If you want better saves, go with a cloak of resistance instead of muleback chords, and instead utilize a wand of ant haul.

[TetsujinOni]

A bard support character? Save or die spells and inspire courage seems "good enough". ;) Whip to aid another at 15 feet.

[khazan]

Perhaps I missed it, but have you stated how the character will be able to quickly or correctly locate a specific item in his voluminous inventory?

I'm wondering because I really like the idea of this character (thinking about making a Bard or Archaeologist for my next PC, and your idea adds a whole new dimension to consider...) and I'd want to be ready to 'prove' to my GM that my character can indeed find that single smokestick buried in his bags, packs, pockets and pouches.

Thanks for the ideas btw!

[Cheapy]

khazan wrote:

Perhaps I missed it, but have you stated how the character will be able to quickly or correctly locate a specific item in his voluminous inventory?

I'm wondering because I really like the idea of this character (thinking about making a Bard or Archaeologist for my next PC, and your idea adds a whole new dimension to consider...) and I'd want to be ready to 'prove' to my GM that my character can indeed find that single smokestick buried in his bags, packs, pockets and pouches.

Thanks for the ideas btw!

Handy haversack.

[WalterGM]

Cheapy's got it. For stuff you won't need in combat (bucket, ladder, etc) it'll go into the bag of holding. And for the stuff that you might need in combat (flasks, chalk, ammo) it'll go into a handy haversack / efficient quiver

[Cheapy]

How is chalk used in combat?

[khazan]

Well that is quite Handy then, isn't it? Thanks for the clarification guys!

[TeaMinion]

Cheapy wrote:

How is chalk used in combat?

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I've found some great uses for chalk in combat! (Okay, so it was actually just after combat.)

In a recent game, my tiefling witch was interrogating a reluctant captive. He refused to answer the question, so my witch shoved a piece of chalk in his mouth and made him chew it up.

Sadly, the good-aligned bard gave him a waterskin and undid my efforts.

The witch also played catch with a piece of chalk and her toad familiar, used chalk to clean out her ears, and got a crowd to copy her chalk-related actions.

[Glav]

For the support bard, why not a little Discordant Voice at 11th? Allies deal an extra 1D6 sonic damage each hit. Combine that with haste and everything else...Hooyeah.

[Callarek]

Missing spells/wands:
Abundant Ammunition (awesome sauce)
Gravity Bow (with that Ioun Stone thing, ya know)
Create Water (this can, literally, break encounters)
Overland Flight (hours, not minutes)
Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider
Protection from Evil
Endure Elements
Dancing Lights (put that mobile light source out in front of the party, so you can see what is ahead, break ambushes, not good for a stealthy party/situation)

Mundane items:
Ghost Salt weapon blanch (200 gp for 10 arrows, but ghost touch!)
Silversheen weapons (+750 gp, masterworked, silver, immune to rust)
Miscellaneous herbal concoctions, like wolvesbane & garlic

Useful (inexpensive (relatively) magic items:
Rings of Feather Falling
Hats of Disguise
Boots of Striding & Springing (up your speed)

[WalterGM]

Cheapy wrote:

How is chalk used in combat?

Dust of the chalk variety, rather. Quite handy against invisible foes ;)

[WalterGM]

Callarek wrote:

Missing spells/wands:

Abundant Ammunition (awesome sauce)
Gravity Bow (with that Ioun Stone thing, ya know)
Create Water (this can, literally, break encounters)
Overland Flight (hours, not minutes)
Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider
Protection from Evil
Endure Elements
Dancing Lights (put that mobile light source out in front of the party, so you can see what is ahead, break ambushes, not good for a stealthy party/situation)

Mundane items:
Ghost Salt weapon blanch (200 gp for 10 arrows, but ghost touch!)
Silversheen weapons (+750 gp, masterworked, silver, immune to rust)
Miscellaneous herbal concoctions, like wolvesbane & garlic

Useful (inexpensive (relatively) magic items:
Rings of Feather Falling
Hats of Disguise
Boots of Striding & Springing (up your speed)

Good stuff, added to the ever expanding list.

In other news, I took the "be sure you can do some damage" to heart and moved some feats around (including Glav's boss level 11 suggestion). I also decided to do a single level dip to gain proficency with my weapon of choice: the Reloading Heavy Crossbow. A dwarf bard, perform (oratory), and a sweet crossbow, does Tassel remind you of anyone yet?.
New feat spread:
1. EWP (Reloading Heavy Crossbow)
1. PBS
3. Precise Shot
5. Rapid Shot
7. Lingering Performance
9. Steel Soul
11. Discordant Voice

The 1 level of fighter makes the class progression look like this:
Lore Warden 1
Bard 5
Pathfinder Chronicler 6

So all I miss out on is calling down some barbarians. The feat swap exchanges the + + skills for the chance to deal damage if ever needed. Also, a bard with Zest for Battle is pretty sweet. :D

[GeneticDrift]

None of this requires you to be a bard, why not cleric for channel energy? A summoner could probably make a nice sapient pear wood trunk to follow him around (like in the color of magic). http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/The_Luggage . The summoner also benefits from having a loyal slave to do dangerous things with.

[Cheapy]

Bard spell list is better for in combat support.

[Mergy]

An evangelist with the glory (heroism) domain would be a sound argument actually.

[WalterGM]

Mergy wrote:

An evangelist with the glory (heroism) domain would be a sound argument actually.

Looked into it, and it just doesn't "feel" right. I'm also nervous about getting pigeon-holed (apologies to any pigeons).

For example, I recently got to play in Year of the Shadow Lodge. It was epic. But the problem was we were incredibly low on divine casters, in fact, casters of any kind. So my witch (that is build around debuffing and battlefield control) and to spend all of his turns doing triage on everyone else. Out of maybe 20 or 30 turns in a single fight I cast Dispel Magic once, and used a total of 4 hexes. The rest of the turns were spent healing everyone else.

If I make a cleric, evangelist or otherwise, I know that I'll get slotted into running around healing everyone, instead of running around buffing everyone. Sure, I want to be able to heal when really needed, but I don't want that to be the norm.

[ZomB]

Scroll of create treasure map for when you "accidentally" killed someone you needed something important off.

[Mergy]

WalterGM wrote:

Mergy wrote:

An evangelist with the glory (heroism) domain would be a sound argument actually.

Looked into it, and it just doesn't "feel" right. I'm also nervous about getting pigeon-holed (apologies to any pigeons).

For example, I recently got to play in Year of the Shadow Lodge. It was epic. But the problem was we were incredibly low on divine casters, in fact, casters of any kind. So my witch (that is build around debuffing and battlefield control) and to spend all of his turns doing triage on everyone else. Out of maybe 20 or 30 turns in a single fight I cast Dispel Magic once, and used a total of 4 hexes. The rest of the turns were spent healing everyone else.

If I make a cleric, evangelist or otherwise, I know that I'll get slotted into running around healing everyone, instead of running around buffing everyone. Sure, I want to be able to heal when really needed, but I don't want that to be the norm.

Evangelists don't play as healers though. They have stunted channelling and they don't spontaneously cast cure spells.

At the start of the game, explain that you're not a healbot, and that you won't be preparing all of your spells as heals. If they complain, ask them to play as a cleric to keep themselves up.

[WalterGM]

Mergy wrote:

WalterGM wrote:

Mergy wrote:

An evangelist with the glory (heroism) domain would be a sound argument actually.

Looked into it, and it just doesn't "feel" right. I'm also nervous about getting pigeon-holed (apologies to any pigeons).

For example, I recently got to play in Year of the Shadow Lodge. It was epic. But the problem was we were incredibly low on divine casters, in fact, casters of any kind. So my witch (that is build around debuffing and battlefield control) and to spend all of his turns doing triage on everyone else. Out of maybe 20 or 30 turns in a single fight I cast Dispel Magic once, and used a total of 4 hexes. The rest of the turns were spent healing everyone else.

If I make a cleric, evangelist or otherwise, I know that I'll get slotted into running around healing everyone, instead of running around buffing everyone. Sure, I want to be able to heal when really needed, but I don't want that to be the norm.

Evangelists don't play as healers though. They have stunted channelling and they don't spontaneously cast cure spells.

At the start of the game, explain that you're not a healbot, and that you won't be preparing all of your spells as heals. If they complain, ask them to play as a cleric to keep themselves up.

If I did go Evangelist, you're right. I'd end up with 2d6 of channeling , cleric spells, and no bardic knowledge / awesome skillness. Or I could have no channeling and bard spells. It's a real question of if I want bard or cleric spells. And I think I'd rather have bard spells.

[Sarta]

I'd personally be more tempted to go halfling bard with a couple levels of paladin (divine hunter for the halfling warsling). The halfling trait helpful makes all aid others result in a +4. Lucky Halfling can also prove clutch given the high saves a halfling bard / paladin is likely to have.

However, I have a fondness for playing halfling's and gnomes.

[Mergy]

WalterGM wrote:

If I did go Evangelist, you're right. I'd end up with 2d6 of channeling , cleric spells, and no bardic knowledge / awesome skillness. Or I could have no channeling and bard spells. It's a real question of if I want bard or cleric spells. And I think I'd rather have bard spells.

It's true, you'd lose out on the skills of a bard for five levels, and that sucks. The loss of loremaster is a tragedy (bardic knowledge would be merely delayed until the first level of chronicler); however, I would certainly argue for three levels of cleric spells over only two levels of bard spells. Level three cleric gives access to a great number of remove _______ spells, and much more versatility than the bard as a prepared spellcaster. As a bonus, you could add pearls of power to your list of items to acquire.

[nosig]

Not to try to change Walters mind, but for anyone else thinking of a support character - IMHO cleric is best. and Dwarf Cleric the best cleric...
and one great aspect of it...
In the Dwarf book there is a 1st level Shield Other spell ... The name of it escapes me right now (anyone?).
it's range is a little less, duration is a little less - but picture the first buff spell cast is on the party tank, and you say to him "+1 deflection to AC, +1 resistance to saves, and pass me half of all the damage you take" - and you do this as a 1st level character (and with pearls of power 1st at 1K gp you, you can do it every combat). If he get's hit, you channel to heal him and yourself. And you start doing this at 1st level - you don't have to wait to 5th level or 6th level to be "the support guy".

anyway - returning you to your regularly sched.....

[WalterGM]

Mergy wrote:

WalterGM wrote:

If I did go Evangelist, you're right. I'd end up with 2d6 of channeling , cleric spells, and no bardic knowledge / awesome skillness. Or I could have no channeling and bard spells. It's a real question of if I want bard or cleric spells. And I think I'd rather have bard spells.

It's true, you'd lose out on the skills of a bard for five levels, and that sucks. The loss of loremaster is a tragedy (bardic knowledge would be merely delayed until the first level of chronicler); however, I would certainly argue for three levels of cleric spells over only two levels of bard spells. Level three cleric gives access to a great number of remove _______ spells, and much more versatility than the bard as a prepared spellcaster. As a bonus, you could add pearls of power to your list of items to acquire.

So I guess the question I need to ask is would I rather have cleric or bard spells. Ultimately, my goal is to be the best utility I can be. Clerics have removal spells on lock. No question. But bards are going to get the glitterdust, the grease, feather fall, saving finale, heroism, invisibility, allegro (self haste), and versatile weapon. Those are the kind of spells I want to see more of in PFS (when was the last time someone actually cast feather fall or versatile weapon?). For the handful of cleric spells that I'm missing and "need" my ranks in UMD (with the bardic bonus on skill ranks) let me cast them via scrolls or wands.

I dunno, to each their own, but clerics with hampered channeling and bardic performance just seem weaker than either a straight cleric or a bard for those levels.

[WalterGM]

nosig wrote:

Not to try to change Walters mind, but for anyone else thinking of a support character - IMHO cleric is best. and Dwarf Cleric the best cleric...

and one great aspect of it...
In the Dwarf book there is a 1st level Shield Other spell ... The name of it escapes me right now (anyone?).

Dwarves of Golarion? No such thing.

[nosig]

Ok... failed that darn Will save again.

Partly I think this falls down to personal taste - and maybe you like your BBQ KC style vs. Southern... but here goes again.

I've played both a support Bard and a support Cleric in PFS. They progressed from 1st level to 6th level at much the same pace (I like to keep my PC options open). To keep the Bard at the same level as the cleric I had to put DM credits to her (only 3 or so).

While the Bard is often more fun - and tends to be the best Face at the table, she is not the best support character. The Cleric wins that hands down. We can match spells/skills/gimmicks all day and it still comes back to at the table play. And when I sit at the table, people ask me to play the cleric, cause he supports them (the free beer doesn't hurt either)...

Anyway - I wish you luck!

[WalterGM]

But... why? If you're equating healing to support, I'd agree that a cleric is superior. I see that as triage though, not support. If you're equating spells to support, I'd agree -- except a bard can UMD to cast whatever a cleric can, thus giving a bard more spells. I don't want to beat a dead horse, and we can both have our opinions, but my goal is to honestly have a great supporting character, so if you can serve me up a reason to play a cleric that's appetizing I'll scarf it on down, BBQ or Southern, ;)

[nosig]

Walter - I'm not sure if I can point at one thing and say "this - this is why a cleric is better than a bard as a support character". I play both - and I kind of enjoy my bard more than my cleric (need to say that softly - so they don't hear). Perhaps it's just the cleric is 2nd best in most everything, bute just seems to be the most helpful. If my Giamo was playing with your Tassel - Giamo would be right in there, able to help Tassel get the job done - and never be upstaging him in anything he did.

When I play with people that know both characters - they ask for the cleric. Even when there's another cleric at the table. UNLESSS they think the adventure will need a Big Face character. Want to slip into town un noticed? I need to run the Bard. Otherwise it's the cleric.

You might try test building your character at each odd level - and see what he brings to the table. Say at 1st, 3rd, and 5th. Now build a support cleric the same way. Pull your existing characters and see which "helper" they would rather have at the table with them. I'll lay odds it's the Cleric (and not for the healing).

[WalterGM]

nosig wrote:

Walter - I'm not sure if I can point at one thing and say "this - this is why a cleric is better than a bard as a support character". I play both - and I kind of enjoy my bard more than my cleric (need to say that softly - so they don't hear). Perhaps it's just the cleric is 2nd best in most everything, bute just seems to be the most helpful. If my Giamo was playing with your Tassel - Giamo would be right in there, able to help Tassel get the job done - and never be upstaging him in anything he did.

When I play with people that know both characters - they ask for the cleric. Even when there's another cleric at the table. UNLESSS they think the adventure will need a Big Face character. Want to slip into town un noticed? I need to run the Bard. Otherwise it's the cleric.

You might try test building your character at each odd level - and see what he brings to the table. Say at 1st, 3rd, and 5th. Now build a support cleric the same way. Pull your existing characters and see which "helper" they would rather have at the table with them. I'll lay odds it's the Cleric (and not for the healing).

Good suggestions, I'll do some builds for both and see which I like. Sorry if it sounded like I was riding you about "why," I was just curious :P

[TetsujinOni]

My bard 6 just barely afforded a ring of lesser reveleation (channel) before starting his latest outing....

Having an 80%+ chance of channeling at least 1d6 nine times per day is pretty nice.

Appears to only require a UMD check once per hour to set your effective oracle level.

Still not as dumb as crackbead antics, either.

[Rogue Eidolon]

TetsujinOni wrote:

My bard 6 just barely afforded a ring of lesser reveleation (channel) before starting his latest outing....

Having an 80%+ chance of channeling at least 1d6 nine times per day is pretty nice.

Appears to only require a UMD check once per hour to set your effective oracle level.

Still not as dumb as crackbead antics, either.

From a strict reading of UMD, you can emulate a class feature but not emulate being that class. Thus, since the Ring of Revelation is very weirdly worded to explicitly require being an oracle (in addition to needing the Mystery class feature), it would seem that an oracle of Lore can get the effect of a ring of lesser revelation (channel), whereas a non-oracle could not. d20pfsrd has an official FAQ in that direction, though the wording on that FAQ is even more confusing.

In the end, considering that it's something that will at least look abusive (leaving out any value judgments here as to whether it is abusive), and considering that there is room to disallow it by a RAW reading, plus an unofficial JJ FAQ, I would expect table variation with a weighting towards not being able to use the ring as a bard.

Now, this is still an absolutely amazing trick with an actual oracle if you build heavy in UMD, as it seems that you should be able to do 10d6 healing channels if you can roll a 39+ on UMD, which is not impossible by level ~5 if you build to it and roll high.

[Cheapy]

By the rules, a non-oracle cannot use UMD to use ring of revelations.

[TetsujinOni]

Rogue: I'd rather have this around as a back pocket choice to provide the needed healing on tables than not... I was unaware of that interpretation disagreement. That said, do you really think it's abusive at a 10K item and a significant skill investment? If so, what's your reasoning?

Cheapy: Would you please care to moderate the tone of that statement to educate instead of confront? I'm looking specifically at the total effect of Use Magic Device:

PRD wrote:

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Emulate a Race: Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a member of a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time.

Based on the fact that the next item in the functions is UMD:Emulate a Race, it appears that UMD:Emulate Class Feature should provide the "I am an Oracle" on a sufficient check.

If this becomes an official item clarification rather than a board thread post, I'll visit what my options for course correction are with my local VO. I'd hate to have the answer be "Thats 7K you just wasted (sold off a cloak of resist +2 to afford it to balance a shaky looking table for Carrion Hill) or add a level of oracle to make it work", but I'll cross that bridge if it becomes one. That character really doesn't want to be an oracle.

I had been ignoring that JJ thread since it's been too spammy to be worth the time investment until now, guess I've got a few hundred pages to catch up.

[Mergy]

There is a UMD ability to emulate a class feature, but no UMD ability to emulate being the class. That's why it doesn't work.

EDIT: Forgot this is on the PFS board. You're likely out of luck.

[Jiggy]

TetsujinOni wrote:

Cheapy: Would you please care to moderate the tone of that statement to educate instead of confront?

Cheapy wrote:

By the rules, a non-oracle cannot use UMD to use ring of revelations.

Did I miss an edit or something? Because that statement is in no way confrontational.

[WalterGM]

Breaks some awkward posting

So how about them support characters? Isn't having stacking bonuses great? Also, look at this neat combo.

1. At level 7 a bard can start bardic performance as a move action.

Which means you can either start this:
2. Inspire Courage: use of bardic performance to buff attack, damage, and other stuff.
or this:
3. Inspire Action: use of bardic performance to give one ally each round an additional move action.
But what if you could do both?

4. Virtuoso Performance: "While this spell is active, you may start a second bardic performance while maintaining another."
So that means that my Bard/Pathfinder Chronicler would need to succeed a DC 11 UMD (caster level 10+1 to cast a spell on your list, but with lower caster level) to use a scroll of Virtuoso Performance, which would also cost 1000 gold, which is sad. But dang, what a few glorious rounds it would be.

[Sarta]

I've found that inspire courage and then either Good Hope or Haste seems to be a better combo for the party as a whole.

[Jiggy]

WalterGM wrote:

So that means that my Bard/Pathfinder Chronicler would need to succeed a DC 11 UMD (caster level 10+1 to cast a spell on your list, but with lower caster level)

Caster level check, not UMD.

[WalterGM]

Jiggy wrote:

WalterGM wrote:

So that means that my Bard/Pathfinder Chronicler would need to succeed a DC 11 UMD (caster level 10+1 to cast a spell on your list, but with lower caster level)

Caster level check, not UMD.

Good call. So a DC 11 caster check (with a +5 from bard), or a DC 30 UMD (with less than a +25 probably). So you're looking at a 75% (6 or better on a d20 to succeed) success rate I suppose.

[WalterGM]

Will Johnson wrote:

I've found that inspire courage and then either Good Hope or Haste seems to be a better combo for the party as a whole.

Yea, looks pretty silly. What about Haste, Inspire Courage and Inspire Action? :D

Summary of effect on your big scary barbarian-killbot 2000
1. +2 competence bonus on attacks and damage
2. +2 morale against charm and fear
3. +1 reflex saves
4. +1 AC
5. +30 ft. move speed
6. +1 extra attack when making a full attack
7. +1 bonus on attack rolls
8. +1 move action

Gross.