I was in the process of making a fetchling cavalier 2/bard 3/battle herald 3/shadowdancer 10 when I came across the following conundrum:
Game developers state that you use the Perform skill's total modifier (hereafter referred to as Perform X, or X) in place of the skill modifier of two or three other skills (hereafter referred to as Y Skills, or Y).
They've also clarified that Skill Focus in X will all effect all of Y and that magic items still grant their skill bonuses to the appropriate skills, regardless of the substitutions.
So...
Does that mean I can get a magic item to increase Perform X, thereby increasing all of my Y skills WHILE ALSO getting another magic item to increase one of the Y skills directly? What if both magic items grant the same types of bonus? Does it stack or overlap? Technically, they ARE going to different skills, and the total modifier from Perform X is carried over to Y skills via Versatile Performance without any apparent regard for how it became that number.
Take something like...say...a circlet of Persuasion, for example. Would such a thing grant me a +6 bonus to all of my Charisma-based Y skills?
What about feats? Would Skill Focus in Perform X and Skill Y potentially grant me a +12 bonus to Skill Y?
In short, is it possible to double up on Versatile Performance. Please explain your answer. I'm looking for RAW, RAI, opinions and, if possible, developer input. However, I do not want a simple yes or no. Please explain your reasoning.
|
It is pretty simple really, Versatile Performance allows you to replace the other skill bonus, you use the better of the two bonuses, you don't combine them at any time.
If your Bluff skill has a +10 bonus from charisma modifier, items, ect and your Perform (Act) is a +12 bonus from charisma mod, items, ect you use the better of the two. You use one total bonus or the other, not both.
|
I'd say no,
If you had an item that gives a bonus to perform, you'd get that bonus to perform, from what you said, not its synergy skill Y.
Basically if your Perform is +10, before magic items, your Synergy Y is 10.
If you slap on a Perform boos item, your actual perform goes up, but not your synergy skill. Likewise if you have an item that boosts the synergy skill, you add it to your Synergy 10.
that is the "regardless of substitutions" bit.
If you have skill focus, your perform total before Adding magic items, you'd get Perform 13, so your synergy would also go up to 13.
Circlet of persuasion sounds like it would boost the perform, the actual perform skill. If the synergy skill is Cha based, it would get the Cha bonus as well. If the synergy skill is Acrobatics via perform (dance) for instance, it wouldn't get the bonus from a circlet of persuasion. But an item that boosted acrobatics would. Again that's the "regardless of substitutions" bit.
Just going by what you stated in your question. I haven't read the relevant dev rulings on the subject.
The developers have already confirmed you could take Skill Focus in Perform X, and have it effect Y skills.
Why would a bonus from a magic item work any differently?
|
|
They've also clarified that Skill Focus in X will all effect all of Y and that magic items still grant their skill bonuses to the appropriate skills, regardless of the substitutions.
to me that means if you had Versatile Performance (Dance), to use Perform(Dance) for Acrobatics and Fly, and your total Perform (Dance) was 13, but you had Boots of Elvenkind ( which give a +5 to acrobatics ), your total acrobatics check would be 18. Because you get the skill bonus to the appropriate skill regardless of substitutions.
If you wore a Circlet of Persuasion, for +3 on charisma based checks, it would modify Perform, when you're actually using Perform (dance) or another perform.
If you had Versatile Performance for Intimidate, since Intimidate is a Charisma based check, you'd get the +3. Based on what you said that magic items grant their skill bonuses to the appropriate skills, regardless of the substitutions.
I don't see any magic items that boost Perform skill in the APG or Core.
|
|
if you have links to the thread where the devs discuss this, maybe they expand on it there. could you post those threads?
edit: i take it back. looking into it, i see some dev's opinions, but no FAQ or ruling on it from SKR.
James Jacobs and in this thread
3) Again, as written, you would only get bonuses from the skill being used for Versatile Performance. So a "Headband of Bluff +5" wouldn't help you Bluff if you were using Versatile Performance (Sing), but a "Necklace of Perform (Sing) +5" would. This is also rather silly, and James Jacobs would personally rule otherwise. However, I believe under a strict reading it would work in this way.
which I can get agree with. The Versatile performance description...
Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
...doesn't go into magic items or whether to exclude anything from the Perform skill bonus. By RAW, if you had a Lute of Perform(String) +5, you'd probably apply that to your total perform skill, and then use that to replace the skill completely. By RAW if you had something that boosted Acrobatics like boots of Elvenkind, you wouldn't get that bonus, you'd only get your total Perform(Dance) skill. If you had a Racial bonus to Acrobatics, you'd basically have the option of using your natural skill in Acrobatics ( 0 ranks, + Dex, + Racial, + Boots of elvenkind ) ... or using your Perform (Dance) total ( without your Racial bonus to Acrobatics. etc. )
James Jacob is saying that he wouldn't penalize bards who want to get gear to boost their Acrobatics beyond what the versatile performance gives. I don't think that if you continue his line of thought the other way, he would want you to double stack a bonus onto perform and still get a boost to the skill from another item.
But unless you're custom making a magic item to boost Perform skill, I don't see anything that does that. So you're dealing with how your GM feels in your home game, whether he wants you to be able to stack magic items like that or not. ( and yeah, if they're both Competence bonuses they wouldn't stack anyway )
edit again:
and James Jacobs continues to agree with another poster as to what counts for the perform skill, here
And yeah, the bonus granted by a masterwork tool or instrument would not assist a Versatile Performance check because you're using that tool to enhance an actual performance, not a substituted skill. I'd certainly allow trait bonuses to stack as well; I'd even be tempted to let bonuses from Skill focus or other feats stack.
Basically... I think of it as basically transplanting your ranks in the perform skill directly into the two other skills as "phantom" ranks that overlap with any ranks you currently have in those other skills. You take the higher of the two and go from there.
if that helps.
James Jacobs also said the following:
A bard can do a lot worse than taking Skill Focus (perform) rather than one of the +2/+2 to skills feats.
But for magic items, I would rule that something like boots of elvenkind WOULD grant you the bonus even if you were using versatile performance by using your Perform skill. The boots are supposed to make your Acrobatics work better, and it makes no sense at all for a character specialized in being all Acrobatic to suffer just because the rules allow her to use a different skill check.
Versatile performance is supposed to widen a bard's skill selection, in other words, not to have stealth punishments that prevent you from using items.
|
|
yes, yes he did .
and like everyone on the boards says, no offense to mr. Jacobs, he's known somewhat as the rules advice, but not the RAW guy.
his opinion is great and perfectly valid, and if thats the way you want to go, then it should work like i outlined in my first post, before i tracked down multiple threads on versatile performance.
if however, you want to go by the rules as written, then no bonus to the synergy skill would count, no matter the source, as the perform skill is all that matters.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either way, you do not get to double stack magic items to increase your skills. Decide whether you want the RAW interpretation or JJ's interpretation and be done with it.
I'm with Seraphimpunk on this. It makes perfect sense that the boots of elvenkind wouldn't improve your skill in this case--because another extraordinary effect is replacing the usual rules.
Also, it's much simpler this way--look at your total bonuses for the two skills and pick the higher one. Otherwise, you have to go and figure out which bonuses to your Acrobatics skill would or would not apply to Perform, etc.
So you are all choosing to ignore the game developers?
That's fine for your games, but it doesn't really help me in this thread.
|
|
So you are all choosing to ignore the game developers?
That's fine for your games, but it doesn't really help me in this thread.
They're making reasonable conclusions about unexpected situations that particular developer probably did not account for when he gave what was most likely an off-the-cuff response in a Q&A thread.
My opinion is also that magic item bonuses to two different skills do not stack with each other when one is projected through the prism of Versatile Performance. They are too similar in source and effect and allow higher skill bonuses than most GMs and adventures would be prepared for.
In the specific circumstance of a Circlet of Persuasion, I would allow it to stack with any magic item that grants a bonus other than Competence.
So you are all choosing to ignore the game developers?
That's fine for your games, but it doesn't really help me in this thread.
Hey, it happens. I cheerfully ignore the FoB ruling as well, and for the same reason--I feel that they didn't really think through the ramifications of the ruling (or, in the case of FoB, if they did think it through, they didn't communicate it to the writers of any of their module writers nor to the writers of Ultimate Combat, with disastrous results). In this particular case, James Jacobs said it didn't make sense to him that the boots wouldn't boost your ability. It makes sense to me, at least unless it boosts your Acrobatics above your Perform check.
But it sounds like you've already made up your mind on the subject, so play it your way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
RD: I'd simply look at the bonus types that end up modifying the final skill check. The Circlet of Persuasion grants a +3 competence bonus on Perform (Dance), and the Boots of Elvenkind grant a +5 competence bonus on Acrobatics — that would be two bonuses of the same type on the same d20 check. Therefore I'd have them overlap and not stack per the general rules on how bonuses of the same type work when modifying a die roll.
In terms of Skill Focus, the bonus there is untyped. Therefore I would have bonuses from Skill Focus (Acrobatics) stack with Skill Focus (Dance).
Grey Area: In terms of the escalating bonus for having 10+ ranks, that's somewhat tricker IMO. However, I'd probably scale the bonus for both Skill Focus feats since the character has already devoted some fairly significant advancement resources towards doing that one thing exceptionally well... +6/+6 isn't going to significantly break things more than +6/+3.
Edit: Also, if the character had Skill Focus in both Sing and Act, I would NOT allow them to get a cumulative +6 bonus on Bluff checks. This is because they are making ONE perform check for the bluff check and therefore only that one perform skill's Skill Focus benefit should apply. (SF Sing and SF Bluff would still stack though.)
If you get a magic item to increase Perform, you increase your versatile performance skills. If you get an item to increase a skill directly, that does NOT increase your perform skill. In fact, only if that increase bonus bumps the actual skill modifier up above your perform modifier would it matter. A circlet of persuasion is an EXCELLENT item for a bard, but things like boots of elvenkind are increasingly not all that great (assuming you have a versatile performance that can be used for Acrobatics in that case).
Same goes for feats and spell effects.
You can't double up on versatile performance, in other words.
No doubling up. Got it. Still it seems like you are now contradicting one of your earlier statements.
James' Earlier Statement:A bard can do a lot worse than taking Skill Focus (perform) rather than one of the +2/+2 to skills feats.But for magic items, I would rule that something like boots of elvenkind WOULD grant you the bonus even if you were using versatile performance by using your Perform skill. The boots are supposed to make your Acrobatics work better, and it makes no sense at all for a character specialized in being all Acrobatic to suffer just because the rules allow her to use a different skill check.
Versatile performance is supposed to widen a bard's skill selection, in other words, not to have stealth punishments that prevent you from using items.
So which is it? If I the boots do they increase my skill WHILE using versatile performance? If I have a different item that increase just my perform skill, might that improve Acrobatics if it is an associated skill?
If both are true, than how come doubling up isn't allowed?
If anything, I think I might be more confused.
You're confusing the way the rules work with the way I wish they worked, basically.
In my games, I'd let boots of elvenkind boost a Versatile Performance because that makes sense to me... but if you're into playing the game specifically rules as written, that doesn't work that way.
*sighs* Oh well.