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Tripping than power attack


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Power Attack

.. can you trip a guy than use power attack when making an opportunity attack?


Morris Chan wrote:

Improved Trip

Greater Trip
Power Attack

.. can you trip a guy than use power attack when making an opportunity attack?

No. Tripping a guy is an attack, and thus you would need to use power attack from the start.

-James

Silver Crusade

james maissen wrote:
Morris Chan wrote:

Improved Trip

Greater Trip
Power Attack

.. can you trip a guy than use power attack when making an opportunity attack?

No. Tripping a guy is an attack, and thus you would need to use power attack from the start.

-James

Yes, you can.

Power Attack is an ability you may switch at any moment before doing an attack roll, lasting until your next round.
So you can strike a guy down and power attack on your next attack - you'll just get the penalty and benefits of power attack rolls until the beginning of your next round.


Quote:


No. Tripping a guy is an attack, and thus you would need to use power attack from the start.
-James

The wording of Power Attack changed in Pathfinder. In 3.5, it specified that you had to declare Power Attack before you rolled any attack roll in that round.

3.5 Power Attack wrote:
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

That wording is not in Pathfinder, so nothing stops someone from making an attack without Power Attack, then activating Power Attack and making a second attack.

Pathfinder Power Attack wrote:
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.

Nothing about needing to activate it before your first attack roll, just that it needs to be activated before an attack roll.


Quote:
Nothing about needing to activate it before your first attack roll, just that it needs to be activated before an attack roll.

Well, for me that would be enough to say that you can't. If you make an attack roll without PA that means you've chosen to not use it.

But if that's still to vague to you let us read the whole PA description:
Quote:

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

It's either all or none, I'm afraid.


Jeraa wrote:


Nothing about needing to activate it before your first attack roll, just that it needs to be activated before an attack roll.

I guess I don't read it that way, but that could be my thinking more in 3.5 than in PF. Makes a nice FAQ question, as really does every change that they've made to make sure we're seeing where it's a change and where it's just a wording change. (i.e. that fun Monk flurry surprise a bit ago)

-James


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I believe this has been answered. I will search.

Silver Crusade

It has been answered, and the answer is yet that you can activate it whenever you want, as long as you do it as part of an attack roll and you are ready to suck the feat until the beginning of your next round.

So yes, you could even do it on the last attack of a full-round attack, and it would apply to eventual attacks of opportunity made before your next round.

EDIT : Let's hear it from a better source than myself.


ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
Nothing about needing to activate it before your first attack roll, just that it needs to be activated before an attack roll.

Well, for me that would be enough to say that you can't. If you make an attack roll without PA that means you've chosen to not use it.

But if that's still to vague to you let us read the whole PA description:
Quote:

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

It's either all or none, I'm afraid.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Read the link, ImperatorK.


I read it. Is it FAQ? Errata? Or just opinion?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No FAQ or errata required; SKR just told you how it works.


My lawyer would say that "before making an attack roll" is different than "during any attack roll". "before making an attack roll" mean that the moment you do an attack roll you get disqualifyed for using that feat for the current round. Anyway, if SK say it should work that way, really don't see any point arguing aside from nothing that once again the writing skills at paizo seems to fail yet again.


Mergy wrote:
No FAQ or errata required; SKR just told you how it works.

I don't care about SKR's opinion.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ImperatorK wrote:
Mergy wrote:
No FAQ or errata required; SKR just told you how it works.
I don't care about SKR's opinion.

I would assume the feeling is mutual. However, as he is the guy in charge of the rules, if I wanted a rules question answered, I would go with him over you.


Because devs never make mistakes and are always right. /sarcasm
I'd rather go with what I think then what he or you think, thank you very much.

Taldor

Power Attack is an on/off switch decision made on your turn every round, and also applies to AOO's.

The penalty would apply to your trip attempt, but not to your damage roll unless you have some ability letting you roll damage with a trip.

Silver Crusade

ImperatorK wrote:

Because devs never make mistakes and are always right. /sarcasm

I'd rather go with what I think then what he or you think, thank you very much.

They are probably less likely to make mistakes than "n°327 random weekly guy seemingly knowing more about the rules than the devs", actually.


I would agree if not for what I've experienced so far.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:

Power Attack is an on/off switch decision made on your turn every round, and also applies to AOO's.

The penalty would apply to your trip attempt, but not to your damage roll unless you have some ability letting you roll damage with a trip.

I agree with you that it's an on/off switch, but as the developers have already stated, it does not have to be turned on at the start of your turn.

Take your first attack, fell the opponent; you five-foot step to another opponent who you know has DR and turn on Power Attack to punch through it for your remaining iterative attacks.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
ImperatorK wrote:
I would agree if not for what I've experienced so far.

Then what difference would it make if it were official FAQ/errata? It's the same people making the decision.

If you don't like the ruling, ignore it.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ImperatorK wrote:

Because devs never make mistakes and are always right. /sarcasm

I'd rather go with what I think then what he or you think, thank you very much.

So make house rules. Don't, however, recite them as gospel truth on the rules forum.


blahpers wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:
I would agree if not for what I've experienced so far.

Then what difference would it make if it were official FAQ/errata? It's the same people making the decision.

If you don't like the ruling, ignore it.

I would assume that when something goes to the FAQ that at least a second set of eyes looks over it.

Everyone makes mistakes (not saying that this is one way or the other) but really the more interesting question is when they reworded power attack was this intended as a change or just a consequence of the rewording.

If you read SKR's post it doesn't speak towards that at all, just 'hey it seems like you don't have that restriction'.

-James


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

What difference does it make what they intended? If you're the GM, go with what you intended.


Mergy wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:

Because devs never make mistakes and are always right. /sarcasm

I'd rather go with what I think then what he or you think, thank you very much.
So make house rules. Don't, however, recite them as gospel truth on the rules forum.

SKR's opinion doesn't make it RAW. I make no houserules.

Address my argument instead of hiding behind irrelevant opinions.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
ImperatorK wrote:
Mergy wrote:
ImperatorK wrote:

Because devs never make mistakes and are always right. /sarcasm

I'd rather go with what I think then what he or you think, thank you very much.
So make house rules. Don't, however, recite them as gospel truth on the rules forum.

SKR's opinion doesn't make it RAW. I make no houserules.

Address my argument instead of hiding behind irrelevant opinions.

Everybody makes house rules. It's a requirement of the game.


Nothing in the feat itself says you have to activate it at the beginning of your turn. The developer quote admits there is nothing preventing you from activating it later in your turn.

Yes, the feat says "all attacks take a penalty to hit, and gain a bonus on damage." That does not mean every single attack in the round. It only applies to attacks made after activating power attack.

Maybe is bad wording, and the change was unintended. But the way the feat is written in Pathfinder, it allows you to activate it before any attack, not just the first attack in a round.


blahpers wrote:
Everybody makes house rules. It's a requirement of the game.

Sure I make houserules, but not in this case.


Or for pure-cheezy-funtimes.

A Trip is not an attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

d20pfsrd wrote:


Trip
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.

In place of...

d20pfsrd wrote:


Power Attack (Combat)

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Attack roll.

So as long as I use the Trip BEFORE making any other attacks I haven't made an 'attack roll' only a Combat Maneuver check. If I have attacked THEN trip maybe not so much.


Quote:


Attack roll.

So as long as I use the Trip BEFORE making any other attacks I haven't made an 'attack roll' only a Combat Maneuver check. If I have attacked THEN trip maybe not so much.

Except as I quoted above:

Quote:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

It is an attack roll. Attempting to use any combat maneuver is an attack roll.

Silver Crusade

Trip is an attack roll.

For lots of fun with a TWFing ranger and his tripping animal companion, menacing weapon and teamwork feats, try Dazing Assault, only activating it on your attacks of opportunity. Normal full-round attack on your round, and Dazing attacks at your best BAB -5 in-between.


Shifty wrote:

Or for pure-cheezy-funtimes.

A Trip is not an attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

Which is an attack which will pop you visible from an invisibility spell. Much like casting magic missile is an attack.

-James


Oh I'd laugh at anyone trying it too, but I figure as the conversation was on I'd bring along some cheeze dip for the argument.

As it is, I read SKR's rules explanation and I have to agree with him that the rules are the way he says they are. They don't line up with how I thought they should/did play out, but thats my problem - 'the RAW is the RAW', not 'the RAW is what I reckon' :)


Shifty wrote:
'the RAW is the RAW', not 'the RAW is what I reckon' :)

But it still begs the question- is the RAW a mistake, or a purposeful change?

From reading SKR's post it certainly wasn't originally intended by him to have been a change.. so who changed it a person or happenstance?

Now do they accept it, or go with it being an error for errata?

Personally it doesn't seem like a needed change, so I lean towards happenstance.

-James

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