Changing the clerical fluff


Advice


I love casters though I primarily play Wizards. I like the clerical power set, but I have a hard time with rites, devotion, prayer, and other of the clerical class fluff. I don't like the idea of my personal power to be dependent upon another being's whim. I am, however, fine with the druids whole spiritual schtick. They are guardians of something primal and pure and that understanding gives them powers, etc etc.

So i'm wondering if anyone has ideas about how to change the fluff of a cleric so that they don't actually have a deity? It may be domain specific or it may not. If you were playing a character who was mechanically identical to a cleric, but who didn't have a deity how would you do it?

P.S. PLEASE do not turn this into a real life religious debate. Please Please Please 1000X Please, don't go that route. It's not productive.


Well it says in the rules that with GM permission, you can just worship an idea and pick two domains.

Quote:
A cleric's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies.


That is a balancing factor since the cleric gets all of their spells up front.

If I were your GM I would let you play it similar to an archivist(3.5) class. They get a prayer book which is similar to a wizard's spell books. They don't get access to all the divine spells, but they don't have to worry about a deity getting mad at them either. I have to go. I will post something more detailed when I get back home.


Odraude wrote:

Well it says in the rules that with GM permission, you can just worship an idea and pick two domains.

Quote:
A cleric's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

How though? I mean role-play wise. Take travel and trickery for example. I draw my power from the night?


Odraude wrote:

Well it says in the rules that with GM permission, you can just worship an idea and pick two domains.

Quote:
A cleric's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

I don't think he wants any of the cleric restrictions though. At least that is how I read it. He wants to be able to cast whatever he wants to cast, and act how he wants to act.


Well roleplay-wise, I'd imagine you could more of an animism route like the druid, but expand it out to these domains. Maybe make the deities more chthonic and down to earth. Perhaps more of a primal, Pagan kind of feel to it. Like for travel, maybe every town you meet, as part of your worship, you leave behind a straw-man fetish in honor of the the World Traveler, a spirit that blesses adventurers.

I find that removing the name of a deity and just giving them an epithet makes them seem more grounded in the natural world.


wraithstrike wrote:
Odraude wrote:

Well it says in the rules that with GM permission, you can just worship an idea and pick two domains.

Quote:
A cleric's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
I don't think he wants any of the cleric restrictions though. At least that is how I read it. He wants to be able to cast whatever he wants to cast, and act how he wants to act.

I'm not sure what restrictions you're talking about. If I take the Good domain then obviously I need to be good, etc. Also an "evil" descriptor spell is still evil. Is that what you're talking about?


Yes


Odraude wrote:
Yes

I would take that into account with character alignment as opposed to God/goddess alignment. Similar as one does with mage casting. Cast enough spells with a specific descriptor and your alignment tends to shift that way. Again, this is a fluff discussion not so much a mechanical one.


Fair enough. Honestly, if you just give each domain a basic epithet, it really helps to make them seem more primal and mystical. So we have the Traveler and the Trickster. Or maybe a better name, like the Journeyman or Wayfarer. And the... uh... Sly Fox?

I'm going to need some more coffee.


The 'philosophy' version of the cleric is handy; you can basically take domains that fit your already-extant character concept, and they don't have to be a domain combination provided by an existing deity. So there's little restriction so long as you can come up with a half-assed reason why your philosophy would acquire such domains. Given that, you simply have a spiritual connection to the domains. No real 'worship' required beyond that which you define for yourself.

The tradeoff for such freedom is that you don't get a free favored weapon proficiency. This may or may not be a big deal.

All of this is subject to GM approval. Some campaign settings don't make sense with this sort of cleric.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I'm not sure what restrictions you're talking about. If I take the Good domain then obviously I need to be good, etc.

Actually. . . .

I have a pair of concept characters that deconstructs/reconstructs the "true neutral is NEUTRAL" trope from old school, "keeper of the balance" AD&D druids and applies it to Pathfinder clerics. Both have N alignment; one has the Good and Evil domains, and the other has the Law and Chaos domains. Naturally, they're siblings, and alternate between closest friends and bitterest enemies.

Grand Lodge

I don't see the issue. Aside from playing in Golarion (Which James Jacobs has explained is because of a story issue in the campaign setting) you do not have to pick a deity. I hardly ever have players do that when I GM since usually the domains they want aren't covered by the same god/dess.

So, if for instance, one of your domains is Fire, you could say your soul is particularly bonded to the plane of fire and through deep meditation for an hour a day you are able to 'bring' a piece of it to the material plane. The very element itself calls to you and connects with you. Very much like a Druid, without the nature fluff.


EntrerisShadow wrote:

I don't see the issue. Aside from playing in Golarion (Which James Jacobs has explained is because of a story issue in the campaign setting) you do not have to pick a deity. I hardly ever have players do that when I GM since usually the domains they want aren't covered by the same god/dess.

So, if for instance, one of your domains is Fire, you could say your soul is particularly bonded to the plane of fire and through deep meditation for an hour a day you are able to 'bring' a piece of it to the material plane. The very element itself calls to you and connects with you. Very much like a Druid, without the nature fluff.

I like that. It's a quasi-evolved thing.


Could a cleric who follows those concepts instead of deities take the godless healing feat?


Umbranus wrote:
Could a cleric who follows those concepts instead of deities take the godless healing feat?

RAI I would say no. While they do not worship a Deity, they still have Faith in a power/concept beyond themselves. Godless in this case do not.


EntrerisShadow wrote:
I don't see the issue. Aside from playing in Golarion (Which James Jacobs has explained is because of a story issue in the campaign setting) you do not have to pick a deity.

I never quite understood that take on Golarion. The Inner Sea World Guide mentions that the Vudrani have thousands of gods, and there are plenty of other cultures on Golarion with deities other than the standard Inner Sea deities. Surely with that many gods to choose from, a player could essentially invent one as a backstory.

The reason Aroden worshipers are screwed is that they worship Aroden. There's no external reason they couldn't move on to a new god (and many did). They'd just have to find one with the same portfolio and/or domains. I propose a massive pilgrimage of Aroden worshippers to the Impossible Kingdom to find a new god. Anything to stop their whining. : D

Silver Crusade

I don't get why you would want to play a cleric without a god. Isn't that part of the attraction?


FallofCamelot wrote:
I don't get why you would want to play a cleric without a god. Isn't that part of the attraction?

Re-read the first post.

Grand Lodge

blahpers wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
I don't see the issue. Aside from playing in Golarion (Which James Jacobs has explained is because of a story issue in the campaign setting) you do not have to pick a deity.

I never quite understood that take on Golarion. The Inner Sea World Guide mentions that the Vudrani have thousands of gods, and there are plenty of other cultures on Golarion with deities other than the standard Inner Sea deities. Surely with that many gods to choose from, a player could essentially invent one as a backstory.

The reason Aroden worshipers are screwed is that they worship Aroden. There's no external reason they couldn't move on to a new god (and many did). They'd just have to find one with the same portfolio and/or domains. I propose a massive pilgrimage of Aroden worshippers to the Impossible Kingdom to find a new god. Anything to stop their whining. : D

It actually is not related to Aroden. The reason why:

Spoiler:
In the Golarion campaign setting there is Razmiran, which is a theocracy dedicated to Razmir, a high-level wizard claiming to be a deity. Clerics who pray in his name can't receive blessings or spells, and J. Jacobs explained he felt that not requiring clerics to have a deity made that storyline makes absolutely no sense. After all, if no deity were required, why couldn't the clerics still grant spells as a matter of faith?


EntrerisShadow wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
I don't see the issue. Aside from playing in Golarion (Which James Jacobs has explained is because of a story issue in the campaign setting) you do not have to pick a deity.

I never quite understood that take on Golarion. The Inner Sea World Guide mentions that the Vudrani have thousands of gods, and there are plenty of other cultures on Golarion with deities other than the standard Inner Sea deities. Surely with that many gods to choose from, a player could essentially invent one as a backstory.

The reason Aroden worshipers are screwed is that they worship Aroden. There's no external reason they couldn't move on to a new god (and many did). They'd just have to find one with the same portfolio and/or domains. I propose a massive pilgrimage of Aroden worshippers to the Impossible Kingdom to find a new god. Anything to stop their whining. : D

It actually is not related to Aroden. The reason why:

** spoiler omitted **

Hmm. That's tricky.

Silver Crusade

Yeah I get that but surely being religious is a central tenet of the class? If you remove that then the class is just numbers and abilities.

Basically if you take away the god part of cleric then it loses it's mystique. For me one of the best reasons to play a cleric is that every faith is different and as such you can play the same mechanics for a half dozen characters and have them have a completely different outlook each time. And that's just for NG gods...


Maybe the reason why the Clerics who worship a concept gain spells and those who worship a false or dead god do not is because the Gods sponser causes that benefit ideals they themselves hold to (much like in the case of Oracles), and the other clerics are trying to forge a specific spiritual connection to something that is not there.

Dark Archive

You could go a more polytheistic route. Maybe a shinto type of cleric that calls upon multipul kami for blessings. This way not limited to one diety, but still maintain core cleric concept.

Silver Crusade

Why don't you play an Oracle?


FallofCamelot wrote:
Why don't you play an Oracle?

Because I like the clerical mechanics, just not some of the fluff. As was described in the first post.

Silver Crusade

Well isn't the god bit all the fluff?

Grand Lodge

FallofCamelot wrote:
Well isn't the god bit all the fluff?

Yes, that's the part he wants to change.


FallofCamelot wrote:
Well isn't the god bit all the fluff?

Yes. So the question is how do you play a cleric without a god. Mechanically it's fine, but I was referring more to replacing the "god fluff" with some other fluff. So what "other fluff" have you used/can you think of?

Silver Crusade

Incidentally I'm not trying to be hostile here. I just don't see how you can remove the god bit from the cleric.

Hmmm...

I suppose you could play it as a miracle healer who has no idea where his powers come from. That way you could leave it up to the GM to decide if these powers are spontaneous or if they truly are divine in origin. In that way perhaps the god chooses the character rather than the other way around.

Not sure if that's what you are looking for though...


FallofCamelot wrote:

Incidentally I'm not trying to be hostile here. I just don't see how you can remove the god bit from the cleric.

Hmmm...

I suppose you could play it as a miracle healer who has no idea where his powers come from. That way you could leave it up to the GM to decide if these powers are spontaneous or if they truly are divine in origin. In that way perhaps the god chooses the character rather than the other way around.

Not sure if that's what you are looking for though...

For example the "Connection to the plan of fire for a fire cleric" was rather good. I would play it as he channels aspects of the plane over praying for spells. Unless someone collapses the plane of fire (in this example) he is free of the divine connection, but still has a flavorful replacement.

Grand Lodge

Perhaps magic powered by the spirits of the dead.


Call it psionic powers instead of spells. Channeling psionic energy. Etc.

The character is a magician and meditates on what spells he will cast that day.

Tactician domain with the Crusader archetype could be used for a super-soldier. The spells and channeling are just his 'superpowers'.

Fluff it as a battle-mage but you are using the cleric spell list. Once again, meditation every morning to channel the powers of the universe.


Could just call it "white mage" and "black mage".

...

Nah, that's just silly.


blahpers wrote:

Could just call it "white mage" and "black mage".

...

Nah, that's just silly.

Ok, Final Fantasty.


blahpers wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
I don't see the issue. Aside from playing in Golarion (Which James Jacobs has explained is because of a story issue in the campaign setting) you do not have to pick a deity.

I never quite understood that take on Golarion. The Inner Sea World Guide mentions that the Vudrani have thousands of gods, and there are plenty of other cultures on Golarion with deities other than the standard Inner Sea deities. Surely with that many gods to choose from, a player could essentially invent one as a backstory.

The reason Aroden worshipers are screwed is that they worship Aroden. There's no external reason they couldn't move on to a new god (and many did). They'd just have to find one with the same portfolio and/or domains. I propose a massive pilgrimage of Aroden worshippers to the Impossible Kingdom to find a new god. Anything to stop their whining. : D

It actually is not related to Aroden. The reason why:

** spoiler omitted **

Hmm. That's tricky.

Not really. It's not as if the Razmiran 'faith' has any tenets aside from "obey Razmiran." There's no coherent philosophy, no beliefs beyond some empty rituals, nothing that actually has any connotations of a divine caster. Combine that with a lack of, well, anything to prop it up and it actually makes sense that Razmirans have to fake it.

I certainly wouldn't let someone play a cleric with a belief system that poorly defined, anyway.


Chris Kenney wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
I don't see the issue. Aside from playing in Golarion (Which James Jacobs has explained is because of a story issue in the campaign setting) you do not have to pick a deity.

I never quite understood that take on Golarion. The Inner Sea World Guide mentions that the Vudrani have thousands of gods, and there are plenty of other cultures on Golarion with deities other than the standard Inner Sea deities. Surely with that many gods to choose from, a player could essentially invent one as a backstory.

The reason Aroden worshipers are screwed is that they worship Aroden. There's no external reason they couldn't move on to a new god (and many did). They'd just have to find one with the same portfolio and/or domains. I propose a massive pilgrimage of Aroden worshippers to the Impossible Kingdom to find a new god. Anything to stop their whining. : D

It actually is not related to Aroden. The reason why:

** spoiler omitted **

Hmm. That's tricky.

Not really. It's not as if the Razmiran 'faith' has any tenets aside from "obey Razmiran." There's no coherent philosophy, no beliefs beyond some empty rituals, nothing that actually has any connotations of a divine caster. Combine that with a lack of, well, anything to prop it up and it actually makes sense that Razmirans have to fake it.

I certainly wouldn't let someone play a cleric with a belief system that poorly defined, anyway.

True, but you'd think there would be at least some philosophy clerics in the mix--the ones using the situation to their own personal gain as defined by their philosophy. Like a cleric of Greed or Duplicity.


EntrerisShadow wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
I don't see the issue. Aside from playing in Golarion (Which James Jacobs has explained is because of a story issue in the campaign setting) you do not have to pick a deity.

I never quite understood that take on Golarion. The Inner Sea World Guide mentions that the Vudrani have thousands of gods, and there are plenty of other cultures on Golarion with deities other than the standard Inner Sea deities. Surely with that many gods to choose from, a player could essentially invent one as a backstory.

The reason Aroden worshipers are screwed is that they worship Aroden. There's no external reason they couldn't move on to a new god (and many did). They'd just have to find one with the same portfolio and/or domains. I propose a massive pilgrimage of Aroden worshippers to the Impossible Kingdom to find a new god. Anything to stop their whining. : D

It actually is not related to Aroden. The reason why:

** spoiler omitted **

Wouldn't the other reason be Rahadoum? Because if you could be a cleric in Golarion who draws power from a philosophy rather than from a deity, then even Rahadoum could have clerics despite having outlawed any worship of the gods.

I rather appreciate the fact that despite the obvious fact in-game that there are gods and all the benefits (healing, cure disease, power against or over undead) the Kingdom of Man chooses to forego all those benefits because they figured the gods are more trouble than they are worth. That stance would have no drama if they could still draw divine power from a source other than the gods. So I see that as a good campaign reason why Golarion clerics are required to have gods.

But in other campaign worlds I could certainly see using philosophy/contemplation rather than devotion to a deity/prayer being the source of divine magical ability. It really all comes down to the GM and the type of campaign they want to run I think.


Almost three years. Nice necro ;)

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