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Chelaxian Witch


Advice

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I currenlty have a witch character from Chelaxia. She has a compy familiar. However, I am trying to play up the whole devil worshipping part of her country as well as the fact that she is a witch who gains her powers from less than benevenolent sources. I came across the Wizard archetype for summoners from Chelixia and am thinking of taking levels. She is a 3rd level witch right now and had advanced to 4th level.

Any advice on this? What will happen at 7th level (if I take the archetype) to her regualr familiar when she gets an imp?


Shalafi2412 wrote:

I currenlty have a witch character from Chelaxia. She has a compy familiar. However, I am trying to play up the whole devil worshipping part of her country as well as the fact that she is a witch who gains her powers from less than benevenolent sources. I came across the Wizard archetype for summoners from Chelixia and am thinking of taking levels. She is a 3rd level witch right now and had advanced to 4th level.

Any advice on this? What will happen at 7th level (if I take the archetype) to her regualr familiar when she gets an imp?

Take the Dimensional Occultist (Witch) achytype, and also take a look at the Diobolist PrC.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Only Wizards can take Wizard archetypes. Witches can only take Witch archetypes. Think about it: If an archetype replaces a class feature with something else, then how can you remove a Wizard class feature from the Witch class?


Thanks Nighttree. However, wont the wizard class give me better access to spells and extra feats?


Zoot, if you read the post you would see that I want to take levels in wizard.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I did read the post. And I didn't see it. My apologies.


I am trying to figure out how the witch/wizard thing will work especially if I get a familiar at 7th level. Do I get both? Do I get to keep the compy because of the witch class?


The problem with multi-classing casters? Lots and lots of 1st lvl spells (which can be really cool, don't get me wrong) but your "punch" is going to begin to fall behind.

A 4th lvl Witch has their third Hex.

A 3rd lvl Witch/1st level Wizard ... let's say Enchanting specialist ... has a whole host of new low level abilities and Scribe Scroll.

But you'll be an 8th lvl character before you get your first bonus feat.

Now, that will be Witch 3, and Wizard 5, and Wizard 5 has access to third lvl spells.

On the other hand, a Witch 8 has five hexes and fourth level spells.

A Witch 3 Wizard 5 has BAB 3 F 2 R 2 W 7 and Scribe Scroll and one other Feat, while a Witch 8 has BAB 4 F 2 R 2 W 6.

I don't know if the "pause" in effect is worth gain.

On the other hand, if you love pumping out low level "utility" spell? Then yes, it will pay off.


I have been taking a look at the hexes you get at level 10+ and they also seem kinda meh.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Realize that if you abandon witch as a 3-level dip, you'll be 3 levels behind on your wizard ability. The three levels in witch probably won't make up for the deficit. If you're interested in staying "optimal", mixing arcane base classes, barring a few specific 1-level dips, doesn't tend to work well. If you're interested more in the RP aspect, it's a nifty idea.

Typically, familiars from different classes stack onto one familiar. So, basically, your imp would eat your witch familiar and replace it. The difficulty there is that you lose all of your witch spells accrued. I suppose, since the imp is now your witch familiar, it would have new spells per the "new witch familiar" rules.

As a house rule, I'd be fine with keeping both familiars separately (with separate levels) or with the imp gaining the old familiar's spells (you are what you eat?).


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Shalafi2412 wrote:
I have been taking a look at the hexes you get at level 10+ and they also seem kinda meh.

I must strongly disagree. There are some quite nice ones there. And a three-levels-behind wizard will probably seem pretty "meh" over time. Or maybe not; it may work for you.

Regardless, there's a witch guide on these boards somewhere that may be of help.


The hexes I have right now are misfortune, cackle, fortune, evil eye, slumber.


Shalafi2412 wrote:
Thanks Nighttree. However, wont the wizard class give me better access to spells and extra feats?

If your thinking of mult-classing into Wizard, then you could take that Wizard archetype....but i wouldn't, you will hamstring your spell progression badly.

The Dimensional patron of the Dimensional Occultist gives you access to the planar spells you need for binding outsiders. If there are other spells from the wizard list you feel are "must haves"....take the feat that allows you to choose spells from other classe's spell lists.
Then take the Diabolist at 11th level, when you become eligable, it will give you more bang for your buck than the wizard archetype anyway.


You do loose a hex though.


Shalafi2412 wrote:
I have been taking a look at the hexes you get at level 10+ and they also seem kinda meh.

If the hexes after 10th don't do anything for you, then you loose nothing by taking the Diabolist PrC.

Just have the Imp companion you get eat your existing familiar, and take over as your familiar.


I like the archetye. However, how would the levl pgoression of the Diabolist work with the witch progression?


Shalafi2412 wrote:
I like the archetye. However, how would the levl pgoression of the Diabolist work with the witch progression?

you would miss out on hexes, which would be replaced by the existing class features....

Spell progression and such would stay the same.


So I would get 2 new spells per level?

Since the imp is a companion and not a familiar I g et to keep my familiar?


Shalafi2412 wrote:

So I would get 2 new spells per level?

Since the imp is a companion and not a familiar I g et to keep my familiar?

Your spell progression would stay the same, as the PrC simply add's +1 "existing", it also has the same BA and skill points per level, so it literally changes nothing.

I always assumed the Imp companion was just the equivelent of gaining Improved Familiar....but after looking at it again, it doesn't really say anything about replacing your existing familiar....so I guess RAW you would have both your witch familiar, and the Imp companion.


nighttree wrote:
The Dimensional patron of the Dimensional Occultist gives you access to the planar spells you need for binding outsiders.

Unfortunately, while it does give you all three Planar Binding spells, it doesn't give you the Magic Circle spells required to actually cast them, and they're not on the Witch spell list.

Quote:

If there are other spells from the wizard list you feel are "must haves"....take the feat that allows you to choose spells from other classe's spell lists.

I am really curious as to what feat you're thinking of here.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

I do not know of a feat that allows a witch to use spells outside of the witch+patron list.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Shalafi2412 wrote:
So I would get 2 new spells per level?

No.

faq wrote:

Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?

No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.

—Jason Bulmahn, 11/24/10

You can cast more spells as if you had gained a witch level, but your familiar won't get the usual two bonus spells. You'll have to learn them the old fashioned way: hunt down a friendly caster and borrow their spellbook/familiar, or find or buy a scroll.

Shalafi2412 wrote:
Since the imp is a companion and not a familiar I g et to keep my familiar?

For Diabolist, yes; familiars and companions are different creatures. Theoretically, you could have an Imp companion and an Improved Familiar (imp), and they'd be completely different in terms of statistics and capabilities. I'm not sure where I got the "imp eats your existing familiar" text; it must have been from some other archetype or prestige class.


from the book of vile darkness diabloist


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Ah, ok. I was going off of the Book of the Damned.


The imp eating the other familiar was in the Book of Vile Darkness if I remember correctly.


All I would need to do is buy a scroll of magic circle and roll a UMD though wouldn't I?


I would suggest Pathfinder Savant levels to get the few spells you need instead of a dip of wizard. Also I would take one diabloist level (from book of the damned).


Pathfinder savant, however, means that the spells are +1 level if not on my spell list.


blahpers wrote:
I do not know of a feat that allows a witch to use spells outside of the witch+patron list.

My bad....I was thinking of Expanded Arcana...but it only applies to your existing spell list, and you must have a "spells known" aspect to your casting.

Now I have to rethink my Chelaxian Witch.....damn


Benly wrote:
Unfortunately, while it does give you all three Planar Binding spells, it doesn't give you the Magic Circle spells required to actually cast them, and they're not on the Witch spell list.

Bloody heck....how did I miss that....back to the drawing board..:(


Well Nightree, a scroll of those spells should work out just as well.


Or just UMD a lesser planar binding after a friend casts the appropriate magic circle for you, no need for any dips or horrible patrons. Your only issue then would be aquiring new spells for your familiar after you've entered the prc.


Shalafi2412 wrote:
Pathfinder savant, however, means that the spells are +1 level if not on my spell list.

It would -- but in my humble opinion a +1 spell level is better than not having it or having to 'dip' for an ungodly number of levels (pardon the slight pun).


I am thinking that going straight witch for 10 levels with the change in the patron and then 10 in diabolist will be best.


20 straight levels in witch would be better than 10/10, so it's not really "best". :P


For the character concept I have, I think it would be.

Cheliax

Shalafi2412 wrote:
For the character concept I have, I think it would be.

Just remember doing so will pretty much kill your hexes. If you stop progressing in witch levels the DC's, duration & effect on all your Hexes stop increasing (unless you bump your Int score) and just about everything you run into at the higher levels will either make the saves or shake the effect off.

Switching classes at 3rd level pretty much means you wasted those 3 levels and doing it at 10th means you give up the 3 most powerful witch only effects in the game (one of which lets you do EXACTLY what you are trying to do now).

Are sure you really want to nerf yourself this hard?


Mathwei, I am not sure what you mean about the 3 effects that will let me do what I am talking about?

Cheliax

When I said 3 most powerful witch only abilities I was referring to specific major and grand hexes that are obscenely powerful and one of them will let you do all the devil summoning/controlling you want (as well as give you full access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list).

The grand hex I'm referring to is the summon spirit hex. For a single standard action and a Temporary negative level feel free to summon an 18th level sorcerer (or oracle, or Diabolist) ghost and have them serve you for as long as you want. If you really want to have fun summon 18 of them and have each one summon a demon/devil for you at the same time to do your bidding.
I'd rather have that power then ANYTHING the diabolist PrC can give me.

Now, while you are waiting to get that power you'll be a force to fear with your Scarred, accursed, Icy Tomb Major hex. With a snap of your fingers ANYONE within 30 feet of one of your Scars will be knocked unconscious, paralyzed and frozen in a block of ice for as long as you want.

Finally, if you invest in the Beast-Bonded archetype you get a character who can NEVER DIE or lose their spellbook/familiar. Add to that you get the power to possess and become any Demon/Devil/Angel or outsider you want.

You'd actually give this up for... an Imp?


Benly wrote:
nighttree wrote:
The Dimensional patron of the Dimensional Occultist gives you access to the planar spells you need for binding outsiders.

Unfortunately, while it does give you all three Planar Binding spells, it doesn't give you the Magic Circle spells required to actually cast them, and they're not on the Witch spell list.

Quote:

If there are other spells from the wizard list you feel are "must haves"....take the feat that allows you to choose spells from other classe's spell lists.

I am really curious as to what feat you're thinking of here.

I don't know about the Dimensional Occultist (because it's not in the straight PRD), but one option would be to get Improved Eldritch Heritage (arcane bloodline), which could give you 1 or 2 sorcerer/wizard spells...such as dimensional anchor and magic circle against evil. The downside is...Eldritch Heritage (arcane bloodline) for a witch is a waste (unless Dimensional Occultist replaces your familiar with something else...which I doubt), and to get those two spells you kinda have to wait until 15th level.


Ohako, the familiar remains since that is the way that a witch learns their spells.

Mathwai, I am going to have to look deeper into that hex. Thanks for pointing it out. What book is it in?


Mathwai, if I go with the Dimensional Occultist all the way I get:

The Dimensions patron provides the following bonus spells: 2nd—hold portal, 4th—rope trick, 6th—blink, 8th—dimensional anchor, 10th—lesser planar binding, 12th—planar binding, 14th—banishment, 16th— greater planar binding, 18th—gate.


If you're going with a witch you must have had a look at this right?

I agree with Math either way. Retribution and Ice Tomb are the two heavy-hitters among Major hexes. Add in worse DCs because of you not getting more Witch levels and it adds up because your hexes won't stick as much (10 + witch lvl/2 + intmod already is a bit low, especially when saves start to pick up).

Cheliax

Shalafi2412 wrote:

Mathwai, if I go with the Dimensional Occultist all the way I get:

The Dimensions patron provides the following bonus spells: 2nd—hold portal, 4th—rope trick, 6th—blink, 8th—dimensional anchor, 10th—lesser planar binding, 12th—planar binding, 14th—banishment, 16th— greater planar binding, 18th—gate.

Yup, but you don't get Magic Circle so you have no way of holding the critter in place so it doesn't eat you. This is going to force you to rely on someone else to actually hold the devil in place, either another caster or a low DC scroll.

Witches aren't really designed to summon and bind outsiders even with this patron, you can do it but it's really tricky. We are more focused on forcing someone else to summon it for us and then feeding them to the outsider as a bargaining chip.

Also follow that link Raje gave you and be awed by the power of a high level witch.

P.S. if you take that Patron to the end you will get maybe 2 Gates and a Wish/Miracle a day.
Take the summon spirit hex and you can get 36 Gates and 18 Wishes every day (minimum 54 9th level spells per day not including your own).
You know what I choose to take.


This is all good stuff to think about, Math and Raje.


So would it be worth taking Improved Familiar (imp)?


Much more than worth it. Your spellbook being able to alter shape and go invisible at will? And commune once a week? And some DR? All good stuff.

Cheliax

Raje wrote:
Much more than worth it. Your spellbook being able to alter shape and go invisible at will? And commune once a week? And some DR? All good stuff.

Oh gods yes, for your concept an imp is an awesome choice (and significantly more powerful and devious then any other choice).


So improved familiars are much better than the regular ones? This would be the first time that I have done this. I do like my compy though. I named him Book like in Hocus Pocus.


They're called improved familiars for a reason. PFSRD is your friend. Check that list for some nice choices (although I'd admit Imp is my personal favorite, not counting "you gotta be this evil to have this"-familiars). You lose a squishy little dino which gives you +4 initiative and get a familiar that's hard to kill (super important when it's your damn spellbook) with various SLAs, abilities, DR and resistances and so on.

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