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Chelaxian Witch


Advice

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Don't forget that, unlike normal imps, the imps summoned to be familiars have telepathy. So, your little imp can turn into a rat, turn invisible, cast suggestion using his telepathy instead of normal speech, and suddenly, a member of the palace guard has killed the king because the voices in his head told him to. Sure, the imp will become visible when he casts suggestion but he's a rat so no one will notice.


the realization that Witches don't get Magic Circle has put a wrinkle in my own Chelaxian witch idea.....
Before I throw in the towel and just go Wizard, just what exactly are the ramifications of casting Planar binding without the Magic Circle ?

Are there any ways to mitigate them ?


nighttree wrote:

the realization that Witches don't get Magic Circle has put a wrinkle in my own Chelaxian witch idea.....

Before I throw in the towel and just go Wizard, just what exactly are the ramifications of casting Planar binding without the Magic Circle ?

Are there any ways to mitigate them ?

Looking just at the text of Planar Binding without knowing if there are any errata/clarifications, the main ramification would seem to be that you can't do it. Planar Binding says that its effect is to lure the creature into a specially prepared trap, so casting it without a trap seems a bit like casting Magic Weapon without any weapons around. The extended material on planar binding and allies from Ultimate Magic seems to indicate that the best a spellcaster can hope for without a properly made trap is that the outsider just leaves.

I suspect your best bet in a home game is to point out to your GM that the archetype grants three spells that don't actually do anything without a fourth and hope for a house rule in your favor - maybe replacing Blink with Magic Circle on the patron list, or replacing your imp's Augury SLA with Magic Circle so that you can use binding but only with its help, or letting you use your Dimensional Augmentation diagrams as the trap. In a PFS game (do they even allow Planar Binding? I don't know), your only real option would be to load up on scrolls and use calling diagrams to prevent the creatures using their SR to break out against its low caster level.


OldManAlexi wrote:
Don't forget that, unlike normal imps, the imps summoned to be familiars have telepathy.

You can only get a consular imp if you take it on 8th level (and not 7th as a normal imp).


Benly wrote:

Looking just at the text of Planar Binding without knowing if there are any errata/clarifications, the main ramification would seem to be that you can't do it. Planar Binding says that its effect is to lure the creature into a specially prepared trap, so casting it without a trap seems a bit like casting Magic Weapon without any weapons around. The extended material on planar binding and allies from Ultimate Magic seems to indicate that the best a spellcaster can hope for without a properly made trap is that the outsider just leaves.

I suspect your best bet in a home game is to point out to your GM that the archetype grants three spells that don't actually do anything without a fourth and hope for a house rule in your favor - maybe replacing Blink with Magic Circle on the patron list, or replacing your imp's Augury SLA with Magic Circle so that you can use binding but only with its help, or letting you use your Dimensional Augmentation diagrams as the trap. In a PFS game (do they even allow Planar Binding? I don't know), your only real option would be to load up on scrolls and use calling diagrams to prevent the creatures using their SR to break out against its low caster level.

I'm all for replacing Blink with Magic Circle.

It must be some sort of oversight to create a patron spell list, that half the spells are basically unusable.


Has the archetype been errated?

Where do I find the stats on a consular imp?


It's hidden inside the fluff of the imp writeup. You get 60' telepathy and better beast shape or something.


I saw that, Raje!

Thanks!


Nightree, please let us know what you come up with!


Shalafi2412 wrote:
Nightree, please let us know what you come up with!

I'm still thinking on it.....

I wanted to go with Witch, because I hate lugging a spell book around, and it was "out of the norm" for a Devil summoner....

but at the same time, I keep running into things I would like the character to have, that only Wizards can easily access....so I'm not sure which direction I want to go.

A big part of my character concept, is that he is "possesed" by a Devil that has been serving his family line since before the rise of house Thrune.
I had worked out a Warlock archetype, to trade the familiar out for something that operates something like a vestige (from the Binder class/3.5) but functions the same as a Witches familiar....maybe I should just look at making it a Wizard Archetype instead of a Witch archetype.....


Hm... Have you considered a possessed oracle with the eldritch heritage feat to get the familiar? A Dual-Cursed Oracle gets some of the stuff you want out of the witch side as well.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Hm... Have you considered a possessed oracle with the eldritch heritage feat to get the familiar? A Dual-Cursed Oracle gets some of the stuff you want out of the witch side as well.

I'm not really wedded to the familiar idea even....that's why I was working on a way to switch it to a vestige type possesing entity.

maybe I should consider that as an option.....


What about a summoner with a diabolical Eire on?


nighttree wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Hm... Have you considered a possessed oracle with the eldritch heritage feat to get the familiar? A Dual-Cursed Oracle gets some of the stuff you want out of the witch side as well.

I'm not really wedded to the familiar idea even....that's why I was working on a way to switch it to a vestige type possesing entity.

maybe I should consider that as an option.....

Well it occurs to me that the oracle has most of what you want -- especially if you dual curse. You can get the devil summoning angle, you get the misfortune and fortune abilities, magic circle and what not and depending on your actual curses and mystery you can cover a large number of rolls.

Refluffing the Ancestor mystery you could treat the blood of heroes, sacred council and spirit of the warrior as devil possession or council and the ancestral weapon could be the devil's favored weapon.

Dark Tapestry hits well as does outer rifts and spellscar (if you don't simply go fire all the way).


Do oracles get the spells to help summon?


Shalafi2412 wrote:
Do oracles get the spells to help summon?

They do, but they don't actually get Planar Binding. Instead they get Planar Ally, which doesn't require Magic Circle in the first place but also doesn't let you summon something hostile and coerce it into service against its will, which is commonly part of the devil-conjuring flavor.


I do like that ability with the planar patron. It goes well with the witches of legend. I do wonder why they do ot get access to the magic circle of protection?


Benly wrote:
Shalafi2412 wrote:
Do oracles get the spells to help summon?
They do, but they don't actually get Planar Binding. Instead they get Planar Ally, which doesn't require Magic Circle in the first place but also doesn't let you summon something hostile and coerce it into service against its will, which is commonly part of the devil-conjuring flavor.

However with planar binding you do still have to bargain with them -- you simply don't have them rampaging in your face from the onset.


Abraham spalding wrote:
However with planar binding you do still have to bargain with them -- you simply don't have them rampaging in your face from the onset.

You don't actually have to pay them, though. It gives a bonus on the opposed Charisma check, but if you're confident in your ability to pass without the relevant bonus you can use Planar Binding to conjure a demon into your circle and compel it to do your bidding through the magic alone. Planar Ally does not do that - you won't get a creature that wants to rip your face off, but in exchange for that you're also not getting any service without paying it the listed price, and that can get spendy if you want to make a regular habit of messing around with outsiders.


Benly wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
However with planar binding you do still have to bargain with them -- you simply don't have them rampaging in your face from the onset.
You don't actually have to pay them, though. It gives a bonus on the opposed Charisma check, but if you're confident in your ability to pass without the relevant bonus you can use Planar Binding to conjure a demon into your circle and compel it to do your bidding through the magic alone. Planar Ally does not do that - you won't get a creature that wants to rip your face off, but in exchange for that you're also not getting any service without paying it the listed price, and that can get spendy if you want to make a regular habit of messing around with outsiders.

Agreed -- however I thought (and I could be wrong) that he would be summoning off the summon monster list more so than binding/allying. He could still go with pathfinder savant to grab the binding spells if he wanted (if doing so I would take the first level and then delay the rest until such a time as you can cast a spell of a level you want). I would suggest two levels of diabloist are still worth his time (especially since the imp companion is based off your caster level... as such you don't lose anything off of it from not taking more levels in diabloist) since that reduces the cost.


I plan on doing the summoning spells more often but it would be great to have the option of bringing forth more powerful allies (?).


Shalafi2412 wrote:
I plan on doing the summoning spells more often but it would be great to have the option of bringing forth more powerful allies (?).

Planar Ally can do that -- without the silver circle and need for two extra spells (magic circle and dimensional anchor) that planar binding would require, and with a higher assurance rate that the called creature will actually help you without distorting your orders (though still no guarantee of it).


I am still trying to figure out the purpose of this ability:
Dimensional Augmentation (Su)

At 2nd level, a dimensional occultist can augment her spells by incorporating complex mathematical equations and formulae into the casting, typically by inscribing these equations with chalk or charcoal onto a solid surface (although scribing them on paper or into wet sand works fine as well). Augmenting a spell in this way adds both a somatic component (the actual scribing of the equations) and a material component (the writing stylus and ink, chalk, charcoal, or other medium) to the spell, and increases its casting time to a number of rounds equal to the spell’s level (if the spell’s casting time is already 1 minute or more, the casting time is not altered). As a result, using dimensional augmentation to cast a spell isn’t a good option in the heat of combat. Augmenting a spell in this manner increases its effective caster level by +1. A dimensional occultist can augment her spells in this manner once per day at 2nd level, plus one additional time per day for every even-numbered witch level she gains.

This ability replaces the witch’s hex gained at 2nd level.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Shalafi2412 wrote:
I plan on doing the summoning spells more often but it would be great to have the option of bringing forth more powerful allies (?).
Planar Ally can do that -- without the silver circle and need for two extra spells (magic circle and dimensional anchor) that planar binding would require, and with a higher assurance rate that the called creature will actually help you without distorting your orders (though still no guarantee of it).

It does not look like witches get that spell.


Shalafi2412 wrote:

I am still trying to figure out the purpose of this ability:

Dimensional Augmentation (Su)

(snip)

Augmenting a spell in this manner increases its effective caster level by +1.

That's the one right there, although it's sort of tossed out offhandedly in the middle. Use it with Mage Armor and you get an extra hour of duration. Use it with Divination and you get slightly improved accuracy. Basically, anything where a higher caster level helps you. It's not an amazing benefit but it can squeeze extra mileage out of the right spells.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And note that if you are trying to summon a creature with spell resistance, that +1 caster level will increase the chance you can beat the SR and summon it...


Benly wrote:
Shalafi2412 wrote:

I am still trying to figure out the purpose of this ability:

Dimensional Augmentation (Su)

(snip)

Augmenting a spell in this manner increases its effective caster level by +1.

That's the one right there, although it's sort of tossed out offhandedly in the middle. Use it with Mage Armor and you get an extra hour of duration. Use it with Divination and you get slightly improved accuracy. Basically, anything where a higher caster level helps you. It's not an amazing benefit but it can squeeze extra mileage out of the right spells.

That makes great sense! If I am understanding it correctly it will also allow me to summom monsters that will stay a round longer?


tonyz wrote:
And note that if you are trying to summon a creature with spell resistance, that +1 caster level will increase the chance you can beat the SR and summon it...

That is also true!


Shalafi2412 wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Shalafi2412 wrote:
I plan on doing the summoning spells more often but it would be great to have the option of bringing forth more powerful allies (?).
Planar Ally can do that -- without the silver circle and need for two extra spells (magic circle and dimensional anchor) that planar binding would require, and with a higher assurance rate that the called creature will actually help you without distorting your orders (though still no guarantee of it).
It does not look like witches get that spell.

Sorry I was commenting on the oracle in comparison to the planar binding spell, I didn't explain that well enough.


No problem!


James Jacob, who designed the Dimensional Occultist Archetype, was asked about the Dimensional Occultist lack of Magic Circle Against Evil problem.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=359?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que stions-Here#17940

Effectively he suggests replacing Blink with Magic Circle Against Evil. I think this is a fair trade off. Though I would allow the Witch to choose any one of the four Magic Circle spells.


SenahBirdR wrote:

James Jacob, who designed the Dimensional Occultist Archetype, was asked about the Dimensional Occultist lack of Magic Circle Against Evil problem.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=359?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que stions-Here#17940

Effectively he suggests replacing Blink with Magic Circle Against Evil. I think this is a fair trade off. Though I would allow the Witch to choose any one of the four Magic Circle spells.

For what it is worth I treat the protection from... and magic circle of protection from... spells as one spell with different choices when cast, just like the summoning spells and dragon's breath.

This is based on the fact that you choose your spells from the spell list and the spell list runs them all as one spell with a bunch of slashies in it.


Abraham spalding wrote:


For what it is worth I treat the protection from... and magic circle of protection from... spells as one spell with different choices when cast, just like the summoning spells and dragon's breath.

This is based on the fact that you choose your spells from the spell list and the spell list runs them all as one spell with a bunch of slashies in it.

Thinking about it, I think that is the simplest solution. I would just call the first level Protection spell Barrier of Protection and the third level Magic Circle spell Magic Circle of Protection.


SenahBirdR wrote:

James Jacob, who designed the Dimensional Occultist Archetype, was asked about the Dimensional Occultist lack of Magic Circle Against Evil problem.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=359?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que stions-Here#17940

Effectively he suggests replacing Blink with Magic Circle Against Evil. I think this is a fair trade off. Though I would allow the Witch to choose any one of the four Magic Circle spells.

I wonder why this was not in the class in the final product then?


SenahBirdR wrote:

James Jacob, who designed the Dimensional Occultist Archetype, was asked about the Dimensional Occultist lack of Magic Circle Against Evil problem.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=359?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que stions-Here#17940

Effectively he suggests replacing Blink with Magic Circle Against Evil. I think this is a fair trade off. Though I would allow the Witch to choose any one of the four Magic Circle spells.

That's excellent news.


I don't believe the Pathfinder Society Field Guide was a playtested product so this little issue slipped through. Without looking at Planar Binding I imagine many people mistakenly do not realize the necessity of Magic Circle spells and assume that it is inherent to Planar Binding. So this is not official errata but it is likely as close as we will ever come unless the Dimensions patron is reprinted later.

Show your DM the post by James Jacobs and see if the alteration would be allowed. That would allow you to work off of the Dimensional Occultist Witch spell list without problems.

If you choose to go Diabolist just keep in mind you won't automatically learn two new spells per level and your familiar is also stunted in class level growth. The capstone ability of the Diabolist is pretty powerful, as you can basically cast any of the Planar Binding spells or Gate and make a bargain in the same round.


SenahBirdR wrote:
If you choose to go Diabolist just keep in mind you won't automatically learn two new spells per level and your familiar is also stunted in class level growth. The capstone ability of the Diabolist is pretty powerful, as you can basically cast any of the Planar Binding spells or Gate and make a bargain in the same round.

The biggest thing is hex DCs stop increasing.


I think I'm going to plot out an Oracle of Lore/Haunted curse, going into diabolist at 10th....just to see what I end up with.


nighttree wrote:
I think I'm going to plot out an Oracle of Lore/Haunted curse, going into diabolist at 10th....just to see what I end up with.

Let us know what it looks like!


Raje wrote:
SenahBirdR wrote:
If you choose to go Diabolist just keep in mind you won't automatically learn two new spells per level and your familiar is also stunted in class level growth. The capstone ability of the Diabolist is pretty powerful, as you can basically cast any of the Planar Binding spells or Gate and make a bargain in the same round.
The biggest thing is hex DCs stop increasing.

At that level is that really going to make or break a witch's hexes?


SenahBirdR wrote:

I don't believe the Pathfinder Society Field Guide was a playtested product so this little issue slipped through. Without looking at Planar Binding I imagine many people mistakenly do not realize the necessity of Magic Circle spells and assume that it is inherent to Planar Binding. So this is not official errata but it is likely as close as we will ever come unless the Dimensions patron is reprinted later.

Show your DM the post by James Jacobs and see if the alteration would be allowed. That would allow you to work off of the Dimensional Occultist Witch spell list without problems.

If you choose to go Diabolist just keep in mind you won't automatically learn two new spells per level and your familiar is also stunted in class level growth. The capstone ability of the Diabolist is pretty powerful, as you can basically cast any of the Planar Binding spells or Gate and make a bargain in the same round.

Those are pretty powerful things to be able to do. Do you think that they replace the hexes that a witch gets at that level?


Shalafi2412 wrote:
Raje wrote:
SenahBirdR wrote:
If you choose to go Diabolist just keep in mind you won't automatically learn two new spells per level and your familiar is also stunted in class level growth. The capstone ability of the Diabolist is pretty powerful, as you can basically cast any of the Planar Binding spells or Gate and make a bargain in the same round.
The biggest thing is hex DCs stop increasing.
At that level is that really going to make or break a witch's hexes?

As the DCs for hexes scale with witch levels, they'll be rather lackluster if you don't actually take levels in witch. Your best bet then is focusing on hexes without DCs like Flight and so on for the utility.


Raje wrote:
Shalafi2412 wrote:
Raje wrote:
SenahBirdR wrote:
If you choose to go Diabolist just keep in mind you won't automatically learn two new spells per level and your familiar is also stunted in class level growth. The capstone ability of the Diabolist is pretty powerful, as you can basically cast any of the Planar Binding spells or Gate and make a bargain in the same round.
The biggest thing is hex DCs stop increasing.
At that level is that really going to make or break a witch's hexes?
As the DCs for hexes scale with witch levels, they'll be rather lackluster if you don't actually take levels in witch. Your best bet then is focusing on hexes without DCs like Flight and so on for the utility.

I think you are correct. Isnt this something that multiple class casters have to worry about?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
nighttree wrote:

the realization that Witches don't get Magic Circle has put a wrinkle in my own Chelaxian witch idea.....

Before I throw in the towel and just go Wizard, just what exactly are the ramifications of casting Planar binding without the Magic Circle ?

Are there any ways to mitigate them ?

You don't need the Magic Circle spell to draw a magic circle. You just DRAW them as outlined below. You just need to take care to craft the right kind of circle that's tuned to the type of outsider you wish to bind.

The arcane method for binding outsiders is more difficult. First, a binder must create a trap, a magic circle focused inward. Typically the circle is outlined in a substance that is anathema to the outsider he wishes to summon. He must protect this circle against any sort of disruption, for even the smallest variation in its energies opens the circle and allows the escape of the creature he has summoned. It is for this reason that most binders’ lairs are in high towers or deep dungeons, far from wind or pests. When an arcane caster speaks the words of the planar binding spell, the outsider can resist via a Will saving throw, with no aid from its spell resistance. If it fails the save, the magic circle draws it inexorably into the trap. Once there, the outsider can pit its spell resistance as a check against the caster’s level, attempt to flee via dimensional travel, or attempt to overcome the spell by imposing its spiritual presence with a Charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 the caster’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier). Succeeding at any of these checks breaks the binding, and a fortunate binder suffers no additional harm from such a breach; the annoyed outsider just leaves. This is not always the case, however.

You'll notice that there is no mention of a spell required to draw the Magic Circle, just knowledge and the appropriate labor. Which is just as well as the Magic Circle spells have rather short durations.


LazarX wrote:
You'll notice that there is no mention of a spell required to draw the Magic Circle, just knowledge and the appropriate labor. Which is just as well as the Magic Circle spells have rather short durations.

That's from the general overview of Planar Binding and Planar Ally in Ultimate Magic, which doesn't override the spells themselves but rather provides more details of the process. Read the actual text of the Planar Binding spell.

"Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell's range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward. The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual's proper name in casting the spell."

This is the process described by the part you bolded in your selection from Ultimate Magic, and it is clearly stated to require the magic circle spell. It is also described to an extent in the magic circle against evil spell description. The selection you picked simply describes part of the casting process.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

It's a problem, I would suggest that we submit this to FAQ. (which is what I'm doing) and leave it up to house rules for now until an answer is forthcoming.

The suggested solution is a problem because it pretty much confines you rather severely into what kind of outsider you can summon.

I think what is needed is a new Hex that's tuned for this archetype to create the appropriate circle as needed.


Shalafi2412 wrote:
SenahBirdR wrote:

I don't believe the Pathfinder Society Field Guide was a playtested product so this little issue slipped through. Without looking at Planar Binding I imagine many people mistakenly do not realize the necessity of Magic Circle spells and assume that it is inherent to Planar Binding. So this is not official errata but it is likely as close as we will ever come unless the Dimensions patron is reprinted later.

Show your DM the post by James Jacobs and see if the alteration would be allowed. That would allow you to work off of the Dimensional Occultist Witch spell list without problems.

If you choose to go Diabolist just keep in mind you won't automatically learn two new spells per level and your familiar is also stunted in class level growth. The capstone ability of the Diabolist is pretty powerful, as you can basically cast any of the Planar Binding spells or Gate and make a bargain in the same round.

Those are pretty powerful things to be able to do. Do you think that they replace the hexes that a witch gets at that level?

Yes, if you go for levels in Diabolist you stop gaining levels in Witch so do not gain more (especially the higher level) Hexes nor do the Save DCs continue to increase as discussed by others above. The idea behind prestige classes is that you are completely replacing class features just like regular multiclassing. With common exceptions such as increasing the spellcasting of a core class. Increasing spellcasting only affects that one feature. So other features such as Hexes, bonus feats, familiars, spellbooks, ect do not get their level dependent bonuses from taking a prestige class.


Technically a witch character can still take the extra hex feat.


LazarX wrote:

It's a problem, I would suggest that we submit this to FAQ. (which is what I'm doing) and leave it up to house rules for now until an answer is forthcoming.

The suggested solution is a problem because it pretty much confines you rather severely into what kind of outsider you can summon.

I think what is needed is a new Hex that's tuned for this archetype to create the appropriate circle as needed.

Thanks! I am sure that this will be very helpful!


LazarX wrote:
nighttree wrote:

the realization that Witches don't get Magic Circle has put a wrinkle in my own Chelaxian witch idea.....

Before I throw in the towel and just go Wizard, just what exactly are the ramifications of casting Planar binding without the Magic Circle ?

Are there any ways to mitigate them ?

You don't need the Magic Circle spell to draw a magic circle. You just DRAW them as outlined below. You just need to take care to craft the right kind of circle that's tuned to the type of outsider you wish to bind.

The arcane method for binding outsiders is more difficult. First, a binder must create a trap, a magic circle focused inward. Typically the circle is outlined in a substance that is anathema to the outsider he wishes to summon. He must protect this circle against any sort of disruption, for even the smallest variation in its energies opens the circle and allows the escape of the creature he has summoned. It is for this reason that most binders’ lairs are in high towers or deep dungeons, far from wind or pests. When an arcane caster speaks the words of the planar binding spell, the outsider can resist via a Will saving throw, with no aid from its spell resistance. If it fails the save, the magic circle draws it inexorably into the trap. Once there, the outsider can pit its spell resistance as a check against the caster’s level, attempt to flee via dimensional travel, or attempt to overcome the spell by imposing its spiritual presence with a Charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 the caster’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier). Succeeding at any of these checks breaks the binding, and a fortunate binder suffers no additional harm from such a breach; the annoyed outsider just leaves. This is not always the case, however.

You'll notice that there is no mention of a spell required to draw the Magic Circle, just knowledge and the appropriate labor. Which is just as well as the Magic Circle spells have rather short durations.

You may want to read the descriptions of the spells in the CORE book.

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