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Melee firearms in action.


Rules Questions

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

There are a number of firearms that are melee weapons as well as ranged. Examples are, Musket Axe, Musket Warhammer, Pistol Sword Cane, and Pistol Dagger. Can these be used as ranged and melee weapons on the same turn? Can you two-weapon fight with both aspects, like other double weapons?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No one has any clue?


The problem I see is that they only state "double for the purposes of MW/magical" (rather than explicitly having the "double" descriptor/property)

Also, I would assume that the Sword Cane Pistol retains the swift action to draw (free w/ QD), which is required to reload anyway...

Anyway, isn't changing your grip a free action? (or is that undefined)

Personally, I'm inclined to treat any weapon enchanted as double to function as such.
However, part of the problem is going to be that the pistols are 1H (requiring a swap for TWF), and you probably won't have an offhand to use with the muskets (both hands are used for the shot).

Either "end" should be fine to take your normal iteratives from high BAB though. (including the melee end of the musket counting as 2H in that situation)

TWF, expect a lot of No's


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, alternating iterative attacks are fine. I figured that. Two weapon fighting with them as if they were a double weapon, probably not, but unsure. Is that what I am getting?


Essentially yes.

TWF specifically treating them as a double weapon (1H/light) is sketchy... esp the muskets which can't ever be 1H.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, there is the alchemist. He can handle two, two-handed weapons.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I wish I could find some RAW to support whether two-weapon fighting with a musket axe is doable, or not.


Strictly RAW...
hmm

I agree it's a little sketchy, but extrapolating from "iteratives work", TWF should work provided you have enough hands (at least 3) and you remember that it doesn't have the double property, so each attack would be made at -4.(offhand not light)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, you would only need two hands to shoot a musket axe, then use it as a battleaxe.


I think he might be talking about reloading bbt


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Ah, well that makes sense.

Sczarni

I think you'd still get the AOO for sure, but I don't see why you couldn't hit with the axe then fire or vice versa. Truth be told I looked and couldn't find anything against or for it...


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I figured that was part of their purpose.


Avoid AoOs with the sword and pistol feat and use opening Volley to reduce you melee attack penalty. bbt


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I wish they would combine the ripsaw glaive, and the shotgun.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Does Musket Training allow you to add your dex to damage when using a musket axe as a melee weapon?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Does Musket Training allow you to add your dex to damage when using a musket axe as a melee weapon?
Musket Training (Ex) wrote:
Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm.

The axe portion is not a firearm.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, for all feats, and abilities, the musket portion counts as a musket, and the axe portion counts as a battleaxe?


That's how I see it.
Things like Deadly Aim certainly shouldn't apply to the axe portion.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Does this include proficiency?


Ooh, now that's a good question.
Short answer yes.

Long answer

Musket, Axe: wrote:
This musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.

That means if you use it as a musket, you need that proficiency; if you use it as a battleaxe, you need that proficiency.

Anyone who has proficiency for battleaxes could use this weapon as a battleaxe even though it has the firearm component.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, you would only need two hands to shoot a musket axe, then use it as a battleaxe.

And I'll get back to this...

NO.

"double"(property) weapons are almost all based on 1H weapons.
The reason they can count as 1H/light is that they are balanced specifically for this purpose.

Further, they still require as many hands to use as 2 separate versions of their base weapons.

This is why I said it's sketchy.
You fully use 2 hands to operate the musket.
And you fully use at least 1 hand to use the battleaxe.

This would make a "double" version of the masketaxe "higher than 2H" (effectively unusable)

In terms of iteratives, this doesn't matter. But for purposes of TWF, you would need to pass of the weapon to a true offhand(one not already used for an attack) to get the attack.
This is also a little sketchy since they removed Weapon Swap. (but it's a separate part of your current weapon, so I'd allow it)

What this adds up to is either a clear No from your GM, or requiring at least 3 hands to pull this trick off.

And I will say again, that w/o the double property, your offhand weapon is not light in this scenario.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Where do you move your hand when you use the battleaxe portion? Is not holding the musket portion the same as holding the battleaxe portion in this case? Where would this third hand need to be?


Effectively your 3rd hand would be free while using the musket, and those 2 hands would be free while using the axe.
(flavoring it as a "change of grip")

I agree this comes dangerously close to Weapon Swap, however it is distinctly different than trying to get all of your TWF attacks with a single weapon.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That sounds very different than other double weapons, which requires no strange third hand business.


Because it's not a double weapon. It's 2 weapons in 1.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Like a halfling sling staff?


Yes, that's a very good corollary.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Hmm... I suppose a search on that weapon, will help provide insight here.

Sczarni

There is a pic in UC I think.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If you shot a musket axe with one hand, could you then two weapon fight with the axe end?

Sczarni

My thing is...changing hands with a weapon has been ruled as a free action, and changing how you use some double weapons is the same. From most pictures of the axe musket it appears that the gun fires from the top of the axe head. I don't see why it wouldn't be a free action after firing to adjust the way you hold the weapon to then use it as an axe, or vice versa.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, two weapon fighting with a musket axe is doable?

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, two weapon fighting with a musket axe is doable?

Maybe not RAW (though changing hands is a free action and the description treats the weapon as two separate entities in one depending on the handling), but this is hardly an overpowered option, and looks actually like it would be pretty badass for a gun tank.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yeah, the blast, 5ft step, then slash, sounds very cool to me. Thus, my questions.


ossian666 wrote:
My thing is...changing hands with a weapon has been ruled as a free action, and changing how you use some double weapons is the same. From most pictures of the axe musket it appears that the gun fires from the top of the axe head. I don't see why it wouldn't be a free action after firing to adjust the way you hold the weapon to then use it as an axe, or vice versa.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, two weapon fighting with a musket axe is doable?

Are you guys still talking about doing this with less than 3 hands??

My issue with merely "changing grip" is that it's clearly not intended by the rules, as is evidenced by the loss of a natural attack when the limb is used for iteratives.
It is clearly the intent of TWF that the offhand attack be made with a dedicated hand... (which is only dedicated for the duration of the full attack action)

Effectively, TWF without this 3rd hand equates to pre-nerf flurry.

edit: for the record I also think it's thematic and cool, which is why I've been trying to find a way for it to work.

Silver Crusade

Archaeik wrote:

Are you guys still talking about doing this with less than 3 hands??

My issue with merely "changing grip" is that it's clearly not intended by the rules, as is evidenced by the loss of a natural attack when the limb is used for iteratives.
It is clearly the intent of TWF that the offhand attack be made with a dedicated hand... (which is only dedicated for the duration of the full attack action)

Effectively, TWF without this 3rd hand equates to pre-nerf flurry.

edit: for the record I also think it's thematic and cool, which is why I've been trying to find a way for it to work.

Natural weapons are their own mechanic. Changing the grip already exists, and has been validated as a legal way to cast somatic spells with a light shield and a weapon in hand by just holding your weapon in your shield hand.

You can already TWF with a weapon handled in two hands and shield spikes or another weapon held in a storing glove. Shooting then smacking in melee with the same melee firearm requires to invest in two ability scores that have no effect on each other, is flavorful and may already be simulated, so my stance is that by RAI and RAW, you can TWF this way.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Excellent, I know this is not an optimized way to use this weapon, but it is thematic, and flavorful. There is a god with the musket as it's favored weapon, and with a combination of the Rich Parents and Chosen Child traits, my dwarf inquisitor can have a musket axe at first level and be proficient with both aspects. I won't even need the black powder inquisition.

Sczarni

haha I love where this character is going!

When you get a chance post up what the character looks like. I'd love to see what you did with the concept!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I usually draw my own pics, but have yet to get access to a scanner. This makes me sad, but maybe this will change.


Maxximilius wrote:
Archaeik wrote:

Are you guys still talking about doing this with less than 3 hands??

My issue with merely "changing grip" is that it's clearly not intended by the rules, as is evidenced by the loss of a natural attack when the limb is used for iteratives.
It is clearly the intent of TWF that the offhand attack be made with a dedicated hand... (which is only dedicated for the duration of the full attack action)

Effectively, TWF without this 3rd hand equates to pre-nerf flurry.

edit: for the record I also think it's thematic and cool, which is why I've been trying to find a way for it to work.

Natural weapons are their own mechanic. Changing the grip already exists, and has been validated as a legal way to cast somatic spells with a light shield and a weapon in hand by just holding your weapon in your shield hand.

You can already TWF with a weapon handled in two hands and shield spikes or another weapon held in a storing glove. Shooting then smacking in melee with the same melee firearm requires to invest in two ability scores that have no effect on each other, is flavorful and may already be simulated, so my stance is that by RAI and RAW, you can TWF this way.

Power level has no bearing on RAW, many things cause MAD.

You make a decent point, however, when TWF with a 2H weapon, those offhand attack do not reuse any of the primary attack's limbs.
(also, it's Armor Spikes, not Shield Spikes)

Double weapons are also a poor comparison because
A) they are specifically designed for TWF
B) they don't violate any of the rules for handedness when compared to using 2 separate weapons of the same type.
C) while they are wielded with 2 hands, when used to TWF, they simulate being wielded as separate weapons (with a specific benefit of being treated as 1H/light)

None of the Ranged/Melee combos do any of this. (not to mention not being actual double weapons)

Strictly RAW, I'm pretty confident that you can't actually TWF with ONLY a musket axe, or any of the others.
RAI, I'd allow it based on some of the leeway in the rules (and that it's cool), but it wouldn't be as simple as shoot->slash (and especially not a 2H offhand axe strike)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Remember, you can fire a two handed weapon with one hand, and a battleaxe is a one handed weapon. You could use separate hands for each attack.


Citation?

Firearms

Loading a Firearm: wrote:

You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat).

The Rapid Reload feat reduces the time required to load one-handed and two-handed firearms, but this feat does not reduce the time it takes to load siege firearms.

Loading any firearm provokes attacks of opportunity.

Other rules for loading a firearm depend on whether the firearm is an early firearm or an advanced firearm.

I think you're confusing Large size pistols only taking 1H.

Size of a firearm* affects handedness for purposes of wieldability but never for actual usage. (edit, IE a Small musket is still 2H)

Sczarni

Quote:

Firearm Descriptions

There are two general categories of firearms: early and advanced. Firearms are further divided into one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms. As the category’s name implies, one-handed firearms need only one hand to wield and shoot. Two-handed firearms work best when you use two-hands while shooting them. Two-handed firearms can be shot with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll.

Just like with crossbows you CAN fire a 2H firearm with one hand if you want the penalty.

But again...a battle ax is a 1H weapon, and FIRING the gun really only takes one hand to pull the trigger. Don't see why you can't hit someone and then fire the gun or vice versa.


Alright, that would work then, and the penalty would be next to meaningless considering you're targeting touch AC.

You'd still need both hands for TWF though. And offhand not light, so you're attacks are at a base of -8/-4 (with all the feats)

Fun times.

PS. jumbled mess of rules is jumbled...

Sczarni

Archaeik wrote:

Alright, that would work then, and the penalty would be next to meaningless considering you're targeting touch AC.

You'd still need both hands for TWF though. And offhand not light, so you're attacks are at a base of -8/-4 (with all the feats)

Fun times.

PS. jumbled mess of rules is jumbled...

I still stand by the adjusting your other hand to hold the gun as you fire being a free action so I wouldn't even charge the -4 for shooting one handed. If I wanted to juggle 2 weapons between 2 hands I can do it all day because its a free action...

Silver Crusade

Archaeik wrote:

You make a decent point, however, when TWF with a 2H weapon, those offhand attack do not reuse any of the primary attack's limbs.

(also, it's Armor Spikes, not Shield Spikes)

Wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands and TWFing with quick drawn weapons or with a glove of storing is also dead legal, yet you still "use the same limb". The "limb" mention appears only for the purposes of natural attacks and weapon cords.

Strictly RAW, since you use the weapons as two separate entities that act differently, I'm sure you can wield them during TWF. The limbs used have nothing to do with this ; using two different weapon does.

Note that you may NOT shoot two-handed firearm one-handed, it is clearly defined in the firearm rules. The penalty would be the same as wielding a two-handed weapon and a one-handed weapon as the off-hand weapon, which means you would be required to fire first and strike then, at a -4/-4 penalty with the appropriate feats. It may be worth spending the base TWF feat for the additional touch attack though, in addition to the Opening Volley feat.

It's balanced on the underpowered side yet flavorful, so I don't doubt the RAI either.

Sczarni

Maxximilius wrote:
Archaeik wrote:

You make a decent point, however, when TWF with a 2H weapon, those offhand attack do not reuse any of the primary attack's limbs.

(also, it's Armor Spikes, not Shield Spikes)

Wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands and TWFing with quick drawn weapons or with a glove of storing is also dead legal, yet you still "use the same limb". The "limb" mention appears only for the purposes of natural attacks and weapon cords.

Strictly RAW, since you use the weapons as two separate entities that act differently, I'm sure you can wield them during TWF. The limbs used have nothing to do with this ; using two different weapon does.

Note that you may NOT shoot two-handed firearm one-handed, it is clearly defined in the firearm rules. The penalty would be the same as wielding a two-handed weapon and a one-handed weapon as the off-hand weapon, which means you would be required to fire first and strike then, at a -4/-4 penalty with the appropriate feats. It may be worth spending the base TWF feat for the additional touch attack though, in addition to the Opening Volley feat.

It's balanced on the underpowered side yet flavorful, so I don't doubt the RAI either.

You are wrong on the bolded part...I already quoted the rule that said you can.

Silver Crusade

Ah, indeed, my mistake. I was confounding this rule with the size penalty/handleness part. You may indeed shoot with it one-handed, but this is unnecessary if you decide to shoot it first.

Sczarni

Maxximilius wrote:
Ah, indeed, my mistake. I was confounding this rule with the size penalty/handleness part. You may indeed shoot with it one-handed, but this is unnecessary if you decide to shoot it first.

See but swapping hands around is a free action, so I don't see why it matters if you shoot first or melee first.

Quote:
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Quote:

Musket, Axe

This musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel.

It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.

If it is treated as a double weapon then it is just that...follows the same rules as double sword or any other double weapon...no change in rule requiring any penalties for using it as a firearm and an ax are stated in the description or the firearms section.

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