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Magi are seriously broken!


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One of my fellow players just had his 6th-level elven magus cast fox's cunning, 5-foot step in towards the bad guy, activated arcane accuracy, and then full attacked with a whopping +7 to hit above and beyond what he normally has!

Thanks to the wizard's haste he completely destroyed the monster with two thrusts to the eyes! A monster that my straight fighter couldn't hope to touch with Weapon Focus, a magic weapon, haste bonuses, flanking, and weapon training! WTH!?

BAAROKE!

Oh and one MORE thing!:
I'm just kidding around. ;-P

But seriously, what do you think about the magus class now that it's been out a while and people have had a chance to really delve into it?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Magi are pretty balanced in my book. I mean yeah they can surpass the fighter in damage...but once they run out of spells/arcane pool, they're not so hot anymore, so you really have to think tactically with your limited resources or you can end up screwing yourself over at the end of the day.

Shadow Lodge

powerful when it decides to be. other then that pretty average.


I like them. They are a lot better than I thought they were. Resource management is important though.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Not a bad class at all. They burst nice. Picked up some neat tricks on this forum for magi, like the spell blending/unarmed spell combat/true strike/disarm/stab them with their own weapon in one round combo.

I don't know if I'd want to play one for the long haul, but as NPCs they seem quite fun.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

they are pc killers as npcs. play the delsine affair (or how ever you spell it) its a pfs module.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
TheSideKick wrote:
they are pc killers as npcs. play the delsine affair (or how ever you spell it) its a pfs module.

Dalsine.

I've run this scenario as a GM. It has a pretty extreme example of just how devastating a magus can be, especially to a low-to-mid-level party.

A lot of it is situational, though - in a toe-to-toe confrontation there are a lot of things that can be done to contain the threat.

I'm contemplating running one as a PFS character. I think it would be quite strong from 2nd to 5th level, but after that it's less clear.


In general cool, it has some clunky/poorly balanced/unwanted bits I dislike but not more so than most other classes that are played 'out of the box'.

I find that the magus is fairly simple to put on some serious pain without significant investment in magical items almost to the point that feels like cheating the PCs out off treasure, it is one of the things that makes the bladebound magus great.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

This is a thread title I can get on board with!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

If anybody needs some help with running with goalposts, I'll gladly help.


I don't like them. I could list of a bunch of reasons why but when it comes down to it one reason stands above all else.

To many PCs maken star wars sounds when they swing there Heavily enchanted sword. Same as spell slinger you get 3-8 "pew pew" jokes a sitting.

Don't get me wrong I don't hate star wars I just don't want you RP a Jedi or sith at my table of pathfinder. Mostly because I know the GM is going to throw something at you and I don't want to be caught in the crossfire (in game and out of game)

Idk if it's just my table but we tend to have a good old time with RP certain styles such as a ninja pole dancer and the mugger half Orc. That means we get off track a bit and start Getting goofy for lack of a better word.

Side note- i dislike ppl bragging about there Broken magus and how they one shot a boss with all the glories details when I was at the exact same table. Seems like some ppl who play magus only play it because it's "broken"

Sorry for my ramblings.


I really like magi concept, i'm always been a fan of gish characters. On the other hand tho, they really encourage the "nova" style of play. That's not so good in my opinion.

Grand Lodge

Dekalinder wrote:
I really like magi concept, i'm always been a fan of gish characters. On the other hand tho, they really encourage the "nova" style of play. That's not so good in my opinion.

Yeah, I recently played on in a game, where the other members were a very unoptimized 2 weapon fighter, heavily optimized archery ranger, unoptimized 2 weapon fighting rogue, very unoptimized Bard/Cleric (who I convinced to convince the DM to let them switch to oracle for synergistic reasons).

Lets put it this way the ranger was clearing 90-115 DPR by level 7 I think, I was bursting up to 60 on one attack per day, and the Rogue called me Broken. I tried to explain to him that I wasnt broken, but he wouldnt hear any of it, saying that either I was doing it wrong or the class was OP and needed balancing.

So I switched, I simply changed classes to Wizard (I know right?), as I refuse to play a "refuses to use his abilities properly" Magus.

The rogue is going to lose his lunch when he sees what I am going to do with the Wizard. Im wondering if I should just go Blasty sorceror.


Munkir wrote:


To many PCs maken star wars sounds when they swing there Heavily enchanted sword. Same as spell slinger you get 3-8 "pew pew" jokes a sitting.

Don't get me wrong I don't hate star wars I just don't want you RP a Jedi or sith at my table of pathfinder.

Never seen that happen.

I don't pretend that we are above silly jokes but try to play a jedi in Pathfinder or make lightsaber sounds during a rp session?

I like my magus and it never crossed my mind that he could be jedi like.


Jedi was the first thing I thought. Then I remembered Glorfindel. I think the Magus is the penultimate elf warrior.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting Subscriber
Munkir wrote:

I don't like them. I could list of a bunch of reasons why but when it comes down to it one reason stands above all else.

To many PCs maken star wars sounds when they swing there Heavily enchanted sword. Same as spell slinger you get 3-8 "pew pew" jokes a sitting.

Don't get me wrong I don't hate star wars I just don't want you RP a Jedi or sith at my table of pathfinder. Mostly because I know the GM is going to throw something at you and I don't want to be caught in the crossfire (in game and out of game)

Idk if it's just my table but we tend to have a good old time with RP certain styles such as a ninja pole dancer and the mugger half Orc. That means we get off track a bit and start Getting goofy for lack of a better word.

Side note- i dislike ppl bragging about there Broken magus and how they one shot a boss with all the glories details when I was at the exact same table. Seems like some ppl who play magus only play it because it's "broken"

Sorry for my ramblings.

Idk, around where I'm at, a ninja pole dancer has a better chance of getting a d20 thrown at you than pretending to be Darth Magus.


I like them. They seem pretty balanced against the Inquisitor and Bard. Sure they can do more damage in a swing by adding spell damage, but spells are an important resource.

Now if only one of my GM's would stop thinking True Strike Magi were enough to ban the class. I've never even thought of taking that spell! :(


JohnF wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
they are pc killers as npcs. play the delsine affair (or how ever you spell it) its a pfs module.

Dalsine.

I've run this scenario as a GM. It has a pretty extreme example of just how devastating a magus can be, especially to a low-to-mid-level party.

A lot of it is situational, though - in a toe-to-toe confrontation there are a lot of things that can be done to contain the threat.

I'm contemplating running one as a PFS character. I think it would be quite strong from 2nd to 5th level, but after that it's less clear.

One spell: Shocking Grasp.

Past level 5? Intensified Shocking Grasp
Also Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp).

at 5th level, you can start adding weapon enchants like flaming burst or keen flaming, or whatever you can think of.

If anything, the magus just gets better and better past 5th level.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Odraude wrote:
Munkir wrote:

I don't like them. I could list of a bunch of reasons why but when it comes down to it one reason stands above all else.

To many PCs maken star wars sounds when they swing there Heavily enchanted sword. Same as spell slinger you get 3-8 "pew pew" jokes a sitting.

Don't get me wrong I don't hate star wars I just don't want you RP a Jedi or sith at my table of pathfinder. Mostly because I know the GM is going to throw something at you and I don't want to be caught in the crossfire (in game and out of game)

Idk if it's just my table but we tend to have a good old time with RP certain styles such as a ninja pole dancer and the mugger half Orc. That means we get off track a bit and start Getting goofy for lack of a better word.

Side note- i dislike ppl bragging about there Broken magus and how they one shot a boss with all the glories details when I was at the exact same table. Seems like some ppl who play magus only play it because it's "broken"

Sorry for my ramblings.

Idk, around where I'm at, a ninja pole dancer has a better chance of getting a d20 thrown at you than pretending to be Darth Magus.

Yup. Someone's got a pretty specific definition of badwrongfun. ; )


My younger brother played a Magus during our last campaign and he seemed to like it all right. We had some hiccups when making the character (like not getting Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp) when we got the Additional Traits feat xD) but he seemed to play all right despite not being fully optimized. Dervish Dance and a Scimitar really helped him out, as he could focus more on his Dex and Int, and Shocking Grasp was a lifesaver for us on more than one occasion. I will say that he seemed to be at his best when he just had one guy to focus on and who he could pour all his attacks into, where as my Fighter had better times chewing through groups of smaller baddies. Made for a good team up until we got a Xen Archer in the party; that archery damage can be unreal!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How does and archer get 90-115 DPR by level 7? That sounds more like level 10 or 12 damage to me. And I know archers.

Avalon9902 wrote:

Yeah, I recently played on in a game, where the other members were a very unoptimized 2 weapon fighter, heavily optimized archery ranger, unoptimized 2 weapon fighting rogue, very unoptimized Bard/Cleric (who I convinced to convince the DM to let them switch to oracle for synergistic reasons).

Lets put it this way the ranger was clearing 90-115 DPR by level 7 I think, I was bursting up to 60 on one attack per day, and the Rogue called me Broken. I tried to explain to him that I wasnt broken, but he wouldnt hear any of it, saying that either I was doing it wrong or the class was OP and needed balancing.

So I switched, I simply changed classes to Wizard (I know right?), as I refuse to play a "refuses to use his abilities properly" Magus.

The rogue is going to lose his lunch when he sees what I am going to do with the Wizard. Im wondering if I should just go Blasty sorceror.

You should introduce this character to him and show him how a REAL rogue plays out.

She walks up as a move action, and sacks a guy as a standard action with +13 to hit for 1d6+21+10d6 nonlethal damage and 10 bleed damage. The target is also intimidated as a free action thanks to enforcer (-2 to attacks), and (for a small reduction in sneak attack damage) is sickened thanks to brutal beating (-2 to attacks). Alternatively, she can give up the bleed damage to use befuddling strike (-2 penalty to hit). What's more, she gets +10 AC against the target of her smacking thanks to offensive defense.

So...1d6+21+10d6 nonlethal damage and 10 bleed damage, demoralize bad guy, and gain +10 AC...

Or...1d6+19+9d6 nonlethal damage, bad guy's at -6 to hit (among other penalties), and you gain +10 AC...

...and that's if you decide not to play cat and mouse game and don't send him running away in a panic with your frightening ability.

Not a bad deal at all.

And she is probably the same level as your friend's rogue, and she accomplished it all without needing to flank or catch her foe by surprise.

Tell him to grow up and stop whining.


It's a very good, fun, balanced and flavorful class. Maybe, Fighter Training might be removed and Improved Spell Recall moved to level 10...


Odraude wrote:

Idk, around where I'm at, a ninja pole dancer has a better chance of getting a d20 thrown at you than pretending to be Darth Magus.

Its a ninja with Derv Dancing feat who wields a pol arm as her main weapon.

Its not a stripper if that's what your thinking. Though stripper joked are made mostly by the same ppl every sitting I imagine this will get old soon.

Edit@ side note it's home brew Derv dance feat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
You should introduce this character to him and show him how a REAL rogue plays out.

Wow, I'm totally borrowing that idea for my PC in Skulls and Shackles. +1


Introduce him to the yo-yo magus. :)


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Spes Magna Mark wrote:
Introduce him to the yo-yo magus. :)

YO MAGUS I HEARD YO AND YO YO-YO MAGUS LIKE YO-YOS SO WE PUT YO YO-YO MAGUS IN A YO-YO SO YO CAN YO-YO YO YO-YO MAGUS WHILE YO YO-YO MAGUS YO-YOS.

DAWG.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
Spes Magna Mark wrote:
Introduce him to the yo-yo magus. :)

YO MAGUS I HEARD YO AND YO YO-YO MAGUS LIKE YO-YOS SO WE PUT YO YO-YO MAGUS IN A YO-YO SO YO CAN YO-YO YO YO-YO MAGUS WHILE YO YO-YO MAGUS YO-YOS.

DAWG.

Wow, I'm actually able to comprehend that. o_o


I like the Magus. Simple as that dawg. yoyo.

Qadira

I think magus is too powerful. I've seen a friend make a fun Kensai build magus to try out, that was too effective. It dealt way too much damage for the party level, throwing combat out of whack. He'd take down the foe too fast and was spoiling the fun for everyone else at the table, so he retired the character at 4th level.


Seraphimpunk wrote:
I think magus is too powerful. I've seen a friend make a fun Kensai build magus to try out, that was too effective. It dealt way too much damage for the party level, throwing combat out of whack. He'd take down the foe too fast and was spoiling the fun for everyone else at the table, so he retired the character at 4th level.

Me thinks there was more to this than what is written.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:
I think magus is too powerful. I've seen a friend make a fun Kensai build magus to try out, that was too effective. It dealt way too much damage for the party level, throwing combat out of whack. He'd take down the foe too fast and was spoiling the fun for everyone else at the table, so he retired the character at 4th level.

Were you guys having 15-minute work days? That certainly tilts things in the magus' favor.

Qadira

it wasn't my character, so i don't know his stats. just know what my friend said/did. by 4th level he could nerf 3 combats a day. all the major combats in a pfs mod, so he decided it wasn't fun.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Well, kinda hard to get much useful info out of that anecdote without some specifics. 3 combats in a day at 4th level? Piffle. That's what I'd use as an RP-heavy "breather" session.

Qadira

i'll see if i can get him to pay the thread a visit

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

A magus gets pretty good pretty fast. At 2nd or 3rd level he's likely to be ahead of a lot of level-equivalent characters (at least for the first one or two encounters of the day - possibly even the third one as well).

After that, though, (both in character level and number of encounters) the advantage diminishes. Sure, the magus continues to get better with each level. But other character classes are coming into their own, too, so the magus benefit becomes less and less significant.

I suspect that there comes a point where the magus might even be lagging behind some of the original classes, even within the limited level range found in PFS. I've got a PFS-legal magus plotted out through 5th level, but at present he's never been played (although he's got a couple of GM credits). I'll probably start playing him at 2nd level and see how he does.


This is Varrel.

Currently going after the bad guy in the 'Thousand Bones' quest in Crimson Throne as a.PBP and he kicks ass.

I took Hexcrafter as a Fall back for resourse management. We are up to

Spoiler alert:
Cabbagehead in the prisoner pits].

Having Slumber hex is a great mook/BBE Melee boss killer IF it lands.
I'm kicking a$$ but have used my pearl of power.
There hasn't been a real Hard fight yet [spoiler=spoiler] I have slumbered most of the derro, we talked our way out of fighting the Ogytugh and I'm saving my 2nd level Frigid Touch for the golem. Still have Glitterdust as well

I wouldn't say I'm overpowerd. But the hexes grant a heap of endurance. My to hit is Just as good as our Paladin and I haven't even had to use Arcane Accuracy.

But 2 handed Spell strike w/shocking grasp rocks.
Using Brand (or Arcane Strike) makes full attacks awesome

I'm considering if it's viable to have my Raven.familiar (who normally sits on my shoulder)
Use aid another to grant me +2 to hit. But I don't think tiny creatures threaten.adjacent squares.


Seraphimpunk wrote:
I think magus is too powerful. I've seen a friend make a fun Kensai build magus to try out, that was too effective. It dealt way too much damage for the party level, throwing combat out of whack. He'd take down the foe too fast and was spoiling the fun for everyone else at the table, so he retired the character at 4th level.

I play a magus in kingmaker and while he has a high burst damage sometimes our ranger only deals less damage because he rolls crappy on attack rolls. And in many fights our rogue deals similar damage, too.

The two PCs who deal less are the life oracle and the summoner. But only because often the creatures summoned by the summoner are used more for distraction and to set up flanking then to deal damage.


Varrel wrote:

This is Varrel.

Currently going after the bad guy in the 'Thousand Bones' quest in Crimson Throne as a.PBP and he kicks ass.

I took Hexcrafter as a Fall back for resourse management. We are up to ** spoiler omitted **

I wouldn't say I'm overpowerd. But the hexes grant a heap of endurance. My to hit is Just as good as our Paladin and I haven't even had to use Arcane Accuracy.

But 2 handed Spell strike w/shocking grasp rocks.
Using Brand (or Arcane Strike) makes full attacks awesome

I'm considering if it's viable to have my Raven.familiar (who normally sits on my shoulder)
Use aid another to grant me +2 to hit. But I don't think tiny creatures threaten.adjacent squares.

Just get it to fly into the square itself, that's what mine did, if you can get it behind your opponent, you could even get a flanking bonus from it, for a grand total of +4 to hit, if your GM says that is legal.


Varrel wrote:

I'm considering if it's viable to have my Raven.familiar (who normally sits on my shoulder)

Use aid another to grant me +2 to hit. But I don't think tiny creatures threaten.adjacent squares.
Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
Just get it to fly into the square itself, that's what mine did, if you can get it behind your opponent, you could even get a flanking bonus from it, for a grand total of +4 to hit, if your GM says that is legal.

Or spend a feat to give it reach.


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I like the magus as a good solid litmus test for other gamers. When meeting someone new who's familiar with Pathfinder I'll bring up the magus (and summoner and alchemist) and see what they have to say. The people who are leary, cite examples, and don't say anything about banning it I'll deal with. People who have the "yeah, it's a garbage class that's broken crap blah blah blah" I just wrap up the conversation and make sure not to game with them. I'm not going to say anyone is right or wrong, but if a GM can't handle a magus (or summoner or alchemist) character then I don't think we would have that much fun gaming together.

Taldor

I would find Magi very powerful when used correctly. Those who hold back in spells don't really give much damage, yet those who do sling spells everywhere will quickly loose spells and soon be no use. Depending if you want a high AC, you will have a higher chance of loosing your spell. So it really it take strategy to build this class the way you want. IF you want to deal high damage and move quickly, then you have a higher chance of getting hit. It depends how you play and honestly, fighter/magus are the best combo.


I never got to test the Magus so far, I haven't been playing Pathfinder since before Ultimate Combat came out and in those last games no one was playing a magus. I myself was too busy trying out the summoner and the samurai playtest.
But I love the concept and it was one of the classes that I missed the most before it finally appeared: a baseclass that combined swordplay and casting into one fighting style. (rather than just both being able to cast and fight a little each, like the bard, paladin or ranger do (the latter with more focus on the martial aspect than on the magical))

Gnomezrule wrote:
Jedi was the first thing I thought. Then I remembered Glorfindel. I think the Magus is the penultimate elf warrior.

This. I felt that, what may be a fighter in most races' militaries, or a barbarian in the fighting forces of more feral races would be a magus for elves.

That they will be in the setting I am planning to brew up.

Silver Crusade

Magi and Gunslingers are not broken. PFS senarios are not properley designed to handle advanced character classes. the senarios are very genaric and when you throw high damage output optimized characters into PFS senarios you get kill fests for Magi, Gunslingers and if people played them inquisitors.

I have gm'ed for two players one playing a Musket Master gunslinger and the other a Kensai Magus. Without changing the senarios which I know is frowned on by the DEV's all the players at my tables would have no fun as the Magus and Gunslinger wipe most everything out in a few rounds of combat as they almost always go first in the Initaive count as they have a +6 and +7 Init mod and deal 80+ points of damage per round each at tier 10-11 very few BBGs have High Init mods or HP to withstand the onslaught of the Magus and Gunslinger.

The Devs need to beef up High Tier encounters for advanced classes
More buffed spell casters are needed casters with staffs never seen a BG wizard with a staff in PFS why the Staff hate from the devs. I think they are just afraid of having buffed spell casters as BG's
more devils and demons are needed at high tier you don't always have to fight devils at High tiers use your dipolmacy with them. but i digress

Fix the high tier encounters and you will have sloved the problem.


Ravingdork wrote:

How does and archer get 90-115 DPR by level 7? That sounds more like level 10 or 12 damage to me. And I know archers.

Avalon9902 wrote:

Yeah, I recently played on in a game, where the other members were a very unoptimized 2 weapon fighter, heavily optimized archery ranger, unoptimized 2 weapon fighting rogue, very unoptimized Bard/Cleric (who I convinced to convince the DM to let them switch to oracle for synergistic reasons).

Lets put it this way the ranger was clearing 90-115 DPR by level 7 I think, I was bursting up to 60 on one attack per day, and the Rogue called me Broken. I tried to explain to him that I wasnt broken, but he wouldnt hear any of it, saying that either I was doing it wrong or the class was OP and needed balancing.

So I switched, I simply changed classes to Wizard (I know right?), as I refuse to play a "refuses to use his abilities properly" Magus.

The rogue is going to lose his lunch when he sees what I am going to do with the Wizard. Im wondering if I should just go Blasty sorceror.

You should introduce this character to him and show him how a REAL rogue plays out.

She walks up as a move action, and sacks a guy as a standard action with +13 to hit for 1d6+21+10d6 nonlethal damage and 10 bleed damage. The target is also intimidated as a free action thanks to enforcer (-2 to attacks), and (for a small reduction in sneak attack damage) is sickened thanks to brutal beating (-2 to attacks). Alternatively, she can give up the bleed damage to use befuddling strike (-2 penalty to hit). What's more, she gets +10 AC against the target of her smacking thanks to offensive defense.

So...1d6+21+10d6 nonlethal damage and 10 bleed damage, demoralize bad guy, and gain +10 AC...

Or...1d6+19+9d6 nonlethal damage, bad guy's at -6 to hit (among other penalties), and you gain +10 AC...

...and that's if you decide not to play cat and mouse game and don't send him running away in a panic with your frightening ability....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the use of Bleeding Attack or Befuddling Strike clash with Offensive Defense?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Iro wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the use of Bleeding Attack or Befuddling Strike clash with Offensive Defense?

Seems so. Still, Bleeding Attack and Befuddling Strike can last several rounds. Hit them with bleeding attack on one attack, befuddling strike on the next, and while they are suffering from a -2 to hit and a bleed effect, hit them over and over again for +10 AC. Works especially well you get multiple attacks and/or are hasted and can lay it all out quickly.

Repeat as necessary to renew the effects or until the target is dead. It's the ultimate cat and mouse rogue.


I can't wait to throw a whip wielding magus against the PCs. :)


As long as they can use Spell Combat and Spellstrike together they can spam 0 level spells (arcane mark, or ray of frost once they have the Close Range arcana) and basically just have more attacks.

Also, they just play out more versatile than they should. I think I'd have less problem with them if their spell list was more restricted, and if they didn't have the Knowledge Pool ability. Were their utility spell access reduced, I think they would be more balanced a class, as it is they work very well in combat and still pull enough weight out of combat to leave the actually Wizard/Sorcerer feeling a bit useless.


It's powerful but not overwhelmingly so. If anything it shows that other m elee classes ( rogue, Wtf ranger) are not strong enough.

I do think it's disappointing that they decided to allow arcane mark spam for an extra attack per round since at lower levels that ought to be a more limited resource.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Reis wrote:
I do think it's disappointing that they decided to allow arcane mark spam for an extra attack per round since at lower levels that ought to be a more limited resource.

So they came to an official decision on the matter? Source?


Magus: Can a magus use spell combat (page 10) with cantrips?

Yes. It is not limited to spells of level 1 or higher.

—Sean K Reynolds, 02/21/12Back to Top

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