| Old Man Landers |
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If you look at the monks ki abilities, I believe he has a dimension door spell. you may also be able to do something like spontaneous spell conversion for teleport spells. You would just have to convert a spell of at least the level that the spell comes into effect.... something like that?
Thanks for bringing that up, Trogdar, because it gave me the inspiration I needed...
Shadow Jump: Beginning at 4th level, the shadow jumper has learned to traverse the world by making short hops through the Shadow Plane. By spending 2 points from their Chakra Pool a shadow jumper may teleport a distance equal to their base land speed as a move action. This provokes attacks of opportunity from adjacent foes as normal. This ability replaces spell recall.
Considering the monk gets to spend 2 points for the full effect of Dimension Door, this seems fairly balanced to me. But then again, this is my brain-child, so I could very well be biased. =P
In any case, I've come up with a progression for the ability, and a little extra bit to help capture the 'Nightcrawler-feel' I'm going for...
Long Shadow Jump: By 8th level, the shadow jumper has grown more accustomed to the feel of 'jumping' through the Shadow Plane. The shadow jump ability may be used in conjunction with the run and withdraw actions, teleporting the same distance your normal speed when performing those actions would allow.
Surging Shadow: At 10th level the shadow jumper gains the Spring Attack feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. This feat may be used in conjunction with both the Shadow Jump ability and the Spellstrike ability. This replaces Fighter Training.
Improved Shadow Jump: Upon reaching (?) level, the shadow jumper has mastered the timing of the Shadow Jump; the ability no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
That's all I've got so far. Not sure about level progression yet (if that weren't already clear from the '?' on Improved Shadow Jump). Here's hoping you guys can help me mold this idea of mine into something actually playable! XD
| Oceanshieldwolf |
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@ Old Man Landers, re: Shadow Jumper. I like the concept!
*I love the names of Dark Techniques and Trailing Shadows.
*Chakra pool is cool as well - I've seen it used somewhere else, but it's a nice twist both on ki pool and arcana pool. I'm not sure the logic follows that the more abilities requires a larger pool, and thus two ability modifiers. I can see your reasoning, but I think it's probably overpowered and over-complicated.
*I'm pretty sure Elghinn's Shadow Fury (Barbarian/Rogue - a work in progress) has a Shadow Jump ability that uses a similar dimension door-esque/Shadowdancer ability mechanic. He should be back on the boards soon - he'd be better at helping you out with your Shadow Jump.
| Old Man Landers |
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Thanks for the feedback guys! I think I'll just make the Chakra Pool Charisma-based.
If you look at the Magus, I believe you can get an ability that lets you convert spells into arcana points, which essentially does what you want anyway.
For example, you could use your greater shadowstep (sounds cooler in my head) for say.. 3 points, and then convert a 3rd level spell to replace those spent points immediately.
Though, I probably wouldn't use anything but 1st level spells.... I could never get my head around linear spell conversion. Spells don't progress in a linear fashion, so why does the conversion? anywho, I digress....
I believe you're referring to Spell Recall, and while awesome, it allows you spend your arcana points to retrieve used spells, not vice-verse. Although, I don't see any reason it COULDN'T work in reverse...
| Old Man Landers |
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Really? sorry, brain fart....
It's no big, it helped me come up with another ability for them. I'd like them to be based a little more around what they can do with their Chakra Pool, so this should help in that regard...
Shades of Power: The shadow jumper has learned how to draw the power of their magic into their Chakra Pool, by drawing upon the magic's "shadow" in the Shadow Plane. Beginning at 7th level they may expend a single spell as a swift action, and gain 1 Chakra point for every level of the spell expended. This ability replaces Knowledge Pool.
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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Elghinn Lightbringer - is there a final build for the Animator base you had that was off of the summoner. I seen it somewhere. Just wondering if its been revised.
Edited: It was The Constructor I think.
Yes, it was the Constructor. I've actually built an MCA based on it called the Clockwork Mage (Sum/Wiz), which hasn't gone through the grind of the MCP Crew's critiques yet.
However, if you want a copy of the Constructor alternate Summoner Class, I can email it to you. You need to email me first, since you have no Paizo profile providing your email. Just go to mine and email me at the email provided. Then I'll email you back with the Constructor doc.
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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Really? sorry, brain fart....It's no big, it helped me come up with another ability for them. I'd like them to be based a little more around what they can do with their Chakra Pool, so this should help in that regard...
Shades of Power: The shadow jumper has learned how to draw the power of their magic into their Chakra Pool, by drawing upon the magic's "shadow" in the Shadow Plane. Beginning at 7th level they may expend a single spell as a swift action, and gain 1 Chakra point for every level of the spell expended. This ability replaces Knowledge Pool. [/QUOTE
Welcome to the thread Old Man, I've got your info, and I'll get back to you when I can. I try to incorporate as much of your stuff as possible, within the balance parameters of course.
Be back soon..ish. :D
| Old Man Landers |
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Thanks a ton Elghinn, I really appreciate it! I know I don't really have a lot of structure to build from, mostly due to lack of inspiration. So thanks for taking the time to work with it anyway. =)
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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Here you go Old Man!!! :D
Still debating whether to make the Cha based abilities Int based instead?
Primary Class: Magus.
Secondary Class: Ninja.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The shadow magus selects six ninja skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal magus class skills. The shadow magus gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The shadow magus is proficient with all simple weapons, one martial weapon of his choice, plus the kama, katana, kusarigama, nunchaku, sai, shortbow, short sword, shuriken, siangham, and wakizashi. The shadow magus is also proficient with light armor. He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a shadow magus wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass shadow magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Diminished Spellcasting: The shadow magus casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list, and casts one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he may cast spells of that level only if his Intelligence allows bonus spells of that level. He otherwise casts spells as a magus of equal level.
Chakra Pool (Su): At 1st level, a shadow magus gains a pool of chakra points he can use to fuel his powers, enhance his weapons, and perform amazing feats. This arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his magus level (minimum 1) + his Charisma modifier. The pool refreshes once per day when the magus prepares his spells. A shadow magus can spend points from his chakra pool to gain the benefits of both the magus’s arcane pool and the ninja’s ki pool. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces arcane pool.
Shadowcasting (Ex): A shadow magus is a master of shadow magic. He adds the following spells of the indicated level to his spellbook when able to cast spells of that level: 1st–level: shadow weapon; 2nd–level: shadow anchor; 4th–level: shadow conjuration, shadow step; 5th–level: shadow evocation; 6th–level: shadow conjuration (greater), shadow walk.
Shadowstrike (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a shadow magus can expend a memorized spell to deal extra damage. As a free action, a shadow magus can expend any memorized spell and channel it into any weapon he is wielding. His melee attacks deal normal damage plus 1d6 points of precision damage per level of the spell expended, up to a maximum of 6d6 for a 6th level spell, until the end of his turn. A shadow magus can make a shadowstrike anytime his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the shadow magus flanks his target. Should the shadow magus score a critical hit with a shadowstrike, this precision damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks count as shadowstrike attacks only if the target is within 30 feet of the shadow magus. This ability replaces spellstrike.
Dark Technique: At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, a shadow magus may choose a magus arcana or a ninja trick for which he qualifies. At 12th level, whenever a shadow magus could select a magus arcana or ninja trick, he can choose a master trick instead. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces magus arcana.
Trailing Shadows (Su): Starting at 4th level, a nearly imperceptible haze of darkness swirls around the shadow magus, distracting his foes. If a shadow magus has at least 1 chakra point, he adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the shadow magus is flat-footed. He loses this bonus when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load. Additionally, a shadow magus adds his Charisma bonus to his Stealth checks made against any opposing Perception checks. This ability replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 4th level, a shadow magus gains the ninja’s uncanny dodge ability.
Shades of Power (Su): Once per day, a shadow magus of 7th level or higher can expend a single memorized spell to regain a number of points from his chakra pool equal to the level of the spell expended, up to his Charisma bonus. Using shades of power is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces knowledge pool.
Shadow Surge (Su): At 7th level, if a shadow magus is within an area of dim light for 3 consecutive rounds, he can, as an immediate action, spend 1 point from his chakra pool to gain the Spring Attack feat until the end of his next turn. If the shadow magus does not use Spring Attack before the end of his next turn, the benefits are lost. He may regain the benefits of the Spring Attack feat by expending an additional chakra point and entering an area of dim light for another 3 consecutive rounds. This ability can be used with the shadowstrike and shadow jump abilities. This replaces medium armor.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 10th level, a shadow magus gains the ninja’s improved uncanny dodge ability.
Shadow Jump (Su): At 10th level, a shadow magus may expend 2 points from his chakra pool to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. The total distance a shadow magus can jump is 10 feet at 10th level. Every three levels higher than 10th, the distance a shadow magus can jump each day doubles (20 feet at 13th, 40 feet at 16th, and 80 feet at 19th). A shadow magus can make single or multiple jumps of any combination of 10-foot increments up to his maximum total per day. Thus, a 16th level shadow magus can make a single jump of 40 feet, four jumps of 10 feet, or two jumps of 10 feet and one jump of 20 feet in a day. A jump of less than 10 feet can be made, but no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment. Using shadow jump does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces fighter training.
Fleeting Shadows (Ex): Starting at 13th level, a shadow magus becomes skilled at traveling through the Shadow Plane while moving quickly. If a shadow magus moves twice his speed or more (including a with draw action), he can use shadow jump at the end of his movement as an immediate action. Using fleeting shadows does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces heavy armor.
Shadow Mastery (Su): At 19th level, a shadow magus becomes an expert at casting shadow spells. He can ignore the somatic component of any spell from the Illusion school, and cast them without the normal chance of spell failure. This ability replaces greater spell access.
Swap Table
Arcane pool = Chakra pool
Spellstrike = Shadowstrike
Magus arcana = Dark techniques
Spell recall/Improved spell recall = Trailing shadows
Knowledge pool = Shades of power
Medium armor = Shadow surge
Fighter training = Shadow jump
Heavy armor = Fleeting shadows
Greater spell access = Shadowcaster
Spells lost to Diminished Spellcasting = shadowcasting, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge
Table: Shadow Magus
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Cantrips, chakra pool, shadowcasting, spell combat 2 0 — — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Shadowstrike 3 1 — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Dark technique 3 2 — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Trailing shadows, uncanny dodge 3 2 0 — — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Bonus feat 3 3 1 — — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Dark technique 4 3 2 — — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Shades of power, shadow surge 4 3 2 0 — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Improved spell combat 4 3 3 1 — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Dark technique 4 4 3 2 — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Improved uncanny dodge, shadow jump 4 4 3 2 0 — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Bonus feat, improved spell recall 4 4 3 3 1 — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Dark technique 4 4 4 3 2 — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Fleeting shadows 4 4 4 3 2 0 —
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Greater spell combat 4 4 4 3 3 1 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Dark technique 4 4 4 4 3 2 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Counterstrike 4 4 4 4 3 2 0
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Bonus feat 4 4 4 4 3 3 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Dark technique 4 4 4 4 4 3 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Shadow mastery 4 4 4 4 4 4 3
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 True magus 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
| Old Man Landers |
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Here you go Old Man!!! :D
Still debating whether to make the Cha based abilities Int based instead?
** spoiler omitted **...
THIS is why I came to you guys with this! Elghinn, I LOVE what you've done with it. I have one small complaint that I'll get to in a moment, but I think what you've got there is brilliant.
However, my small complaint is this: I was kind of hoping the Shadow Jump would be a more integral part of the class, and gaining the ability at 10th level somewhat diminishes that. Would it be balanced if we gave them the ability at first level (starting with the 10ft of movement) but gave them an extra 10ft per 3 levels, instead of doubling it? Maybe make it cost 3 Chakra at 1st level, but it's cost is reduced to 2 points at 10th level?
This is just a flavor quip, though, and I understand if that's not really possible with all the other stuff they get. And again, I love what you've done with it, and I thank you for taking the time to work with the idea. =)
| Old Man Landers |
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Oh, and on the subject of Cha vs. Int, I think that since the Primary is Magus, that we probably should change the abilities to Int-based. Then again, a class with extra teleports, spellcasting, and all its other bells and whistles might deserve a little more MADness. Depends on what others think, I suppose. But I'm willing to leave the final decisions up to you and the other MCA experts.
| Oceanshieldwolf |
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@Shadow Magus: Whether Int or Cha, Trailing Shadows is a pretty huge power, and I'm not sure the swap/s are worth it. At 4th level, is it not likely the Shadow Magus will have +3 (or higher?) ability modifier. So, as long as he has 1 chakra point, he has a pretty powerful, untyped bonus to AC (including vs touch attacks, and when flat-footed) without a duration period AND a like bonus to stealth? And with shadow surge at 7th level, keeping a 1st level spell to get the one chakra point is a no-brainer for 3+ AC points...!?!? He just seems to be outmonking the monk for ac, and the rogue for stealth bonuses, if not skill points...
Perhaps keep it Cha based, but other abilities Int, to create some MAD...
Also, with regard to Trailing Shadows again, I understand flatfooted, in that it's in effect whether the Shadow Magus is focusing on it/knows about it or not, but not understanding touch attacks - I guess doesn't work so much for me. (Elghinn, is there an ability that functikns similar I see, facedesk, and move on?)
Other than that, I'm really liking the flavor. I agree the shadow jumping would be cool earlier...
| Old Man Landers |
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@Shadow Magus: Whether Int or Cha, Trailing Shadows is a pretty huge power, and I'm not sure the swap/s are worth it. At 4th level, is it not likely the Shadow Magus will have +3 (or higher?) ability modifier. So, as long as he has 1 chakra point, he has a pretty powerful, untyped bonus to AC (including vs touch attacks, and when flat-footed) without a duration period AND a like bonus to stealth? And with shadow surge at 7th level, keeping a 1st level spell to get the one chakra point is a no-brainer for 3+ AC points...!?!? He just seems to be outmonking the monk for ac, and the rogue for stealth bonuses, if not skill points...
Perhaps keep it Cha based, but other abilities Int, to create some MAD...
Also, with regard to Trailing Shadows again, I understand flatfooted, in that it's in effect whether the Shadow Magus is focusing on it/knows about it or not, but not understanding touch attacks - I guess doesn't work so much for me. (Elghinn, is there an ability that functikns similar I see, facedesk, and move on?)
Other than that, I'm really liking the flavor. I agree the shadow jumping would be cool earlier...
Maybe it would help to type the Shadow Magus' AC bonus as a natural armor bonus? And just for the sake of argument, the ninja can out-Stealth the rogue any day of the week without even trying. =P
EDIT: Just re-read the Tracing Shadows ability, and it actually works exactly like the monk's Wis bonus to AC, right down to the fact that you can't wear armor if you want the bonus. And since the monk gets an extra enhancement bonus to its AC just for being a monk, the SM doesn't out-AC the monk at all. Which helps solidify its focus on stealth and mobility (in my mind).
| Oceanshieldwolf |
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Aaack! I totally missed the no armor caveat of Trailing Shadows. Sorry! But now that I see it, I'm thinking why does this caveat exist - what about wearing armor ruins the shadows? Granted, mechanically it is great, but now the flavor *really* doesn't make sense - neither the Magus nor Ninja are armorless - in fact it seems to me wearing armor is part of the magus' mystique. Now I know the Shadow Magus isn't a vanilla magus, but a Shadow Magus can wear armor. Does that make sense? I'm not trying to be difficult here, just a foil...
Trogdar's point about Warhammer 40k's Harlequins makes me see this guy as a no-armor archetype... Though I suppose he wears armor until 4th level, then can use trailing shadows (and wear chequered motley tights!)
My point/question about getting the armor bonus AND the stealth bonus still stands though - I'm not sure of the trade - more because I'm not super familiar with Spell Recall/Improved Spell Recall than anything. It sure makes sense for the trailing shadows to do both! ;)
Shadow surge replacing medium armor makes a lot more sense as that one point you need for trailing shadows will likely come from shadow surge from time to time. Very neat.
Is shadowstrike only usable when flanking/when Dex bonus is denied or also?
| Old Man Landers |
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After giving everything a more critical, non-gushy read-through, I've discovered a couple other nitpicks to hopefully help with the refinement process.
Shadowstrike... My concern with this is that it sacrifices the damage out-put of Spellstrike just for a bit flavor (wonderful flavor, mind you, but flavor isn't very crunchy by itself). Maybe we should keep the effects of Spellstrike, but make it only usable as 'Sneak Attack' ability? Perhaps using Shadowstrike (because I still like the name) when the opponent is flat-footed, etc. could give some other type of benefit (not outright damage... maybe a buff for the Shadow Magus? A debuff for the enemy?).
Spell Combat... Since this is a full-round action, I feel like it somewhat undermines the archetypes emphasis on mobility and whatnot. Not sure what we could replace this with (if anything), but I feel like it needs to be re-worked in some way. Suggestions anyone?
Trailing Shadows... Great points OSW. As a Magus enthusiast, allow me to assuage your fears: Spell Recall and its Improved version are VERY powerful abilities. They're basically like having Pearls of Power in ability form. So giving them trailing shadows and making it usable with light armor (perhaps no greater than leather?) seems like a fair trade to me. Then again, making it a no-armor archetype also sounds cool, and fits with the theme.
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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@ OSW and Old Man
I think I can address all your concerns here. Fighter TRaining is no longer swapped, which still alows the MCA to gain fighter feats at 1/2 level. WE could come up with another "chakra" ability if you wanted, but I think there is sufficient changes to the Magus class already.
{b]Re Trailing Shadows:[/b] I agree with Old Man, its a fair trade, and I think "no armor" is the right flavor. He can't gain the medium or heavy armor casting of a magus, but, it does allow him to survive in early levels with the light armor, but is his Cha is better than armor, he can simply ditch the armor. At 20th, he could have a Cha of 20 (that's +5), then with a ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, or bracers. I added the caveat in black.
Re Shadow Jump and Spell Combat/Improved/Greater: I think this takes care of both concerns. Made it a bit more powerful, but spread it throughout more levels. I think its a pretty good trade. Essentially the equivalent of 3 feats.
Re Shadowstrike: Again I think this takes care of the issue. Provides a bit more flexability, but retains the flavor of my previous shadowstrike version.
I added something to replace True Magus, since the spell combat tree is gone. It no longer makes sense.
If this isn't particularly liked as an ability, we could just make it a "Shadow Walk" ability once per day, plus something else, but I think this is within the flavor of the whole MCA.
I also moved Shadowcasting to 2nd level to spread abilities out a bit.
So as it sits, this is the new swap table, and the new Advancement table. Yes, there are dead levels at 8th and 14th, but he still gains spells at those levels.
Swap Table
Arcane pool = Chakra pool
Spellcombat/improved spell combat/greater spell combat = shadow jump
Spellstrike = Shadowstrike
Magus arcana = Dark techniques
Spell recall/Improved spell recall = Trailing shadows
Knowledge pool = Shades of power
Medium armor = Shadow surge
Heavy armor = Fleeting shadows
Greater spell access = Shadowcaster
True magus = True shadow
Spells lost to Diminished Spellcasting = shadowcasting, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge
Table: Shadow Magus
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Cantrips, chakra pool, shadow jump 2 0 — — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Shadowcasting, shadowstrike 3 1 — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Dark technique 3 2 — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Trailing shadows, uncanny dodge 3 2 0 — — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Bonus feat 3 3 1 — — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Dark technique 4 3 2 — — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Shades of power, shadow surge 4 3 2 0 — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 4 3 3 1 — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Dark technique 4 4 3 2 — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Fighter training, improved uncanny dodge 4 4 3 2 0 — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Bonus feat 4 4 3 3 1 — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Dark technique 4 4 4 3 2 — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Fleeting shadows 4 4 4 3 2 0 —
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 4 4 4 3 3 1 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Dark technique 4 4 4 4 3 2 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Counterstrike 4 4 4 4 3 2 0
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Bonus feat 4 4 4 4 3 3 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Dark technique 4 4 4 4 4 3 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Shadow mastery 4 4 4 4 4 4 3
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 True shadow 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
| Old Man Landers |
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@ OSW and Old Man
I think I can address all your concerns here. Fighter TRaining is no longer swapped, which still alows the MCA to gain fighter feats at 1/2 level. WE could come up with another "chakra" ability if you wanted, but I think there is sufficient changes to the Magus class already.
{b]Re Trailing Shadows:[/b] I agree with Old Man, its a fair trade, and I think "no armor" is the right flavor. He can't gain the medium or heavy armor casting of a magus, but, it does allow him to survive in early levels with the light armor, but is his Cha is better than armor, he can simply ditch the armor. At 20th, he could have a Cha of 20 (that's +5), then with a ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, or bracers. I added the caveat in black.
Re Shadow Jump and Spell Combat/Improved/Greater: I think this takes care of both concerns. Made it a bit more powerful, but spread it throughout more levels. I think its a pretty good trade. Essentially the equivalent of 3 feats.
...
Honestly, I think this takes care of pretty much all my concerns. A couple of dead levels, but you gain spells, so that's not much of an issue. Could move Shadow Surge to 8th level if we really wanted to. And I love the True Shadow ability, it's a very nice touch. In any case, thanks a bunch for this Elghinn, it's great! XD What do you say, OSW? Thoughts or concerns?
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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Honestly, I think this takes care of pretty much all my concerns. A couple of dead levels, but you gain spells, so that's not much of an issue. Could move Shadow Surge to 8th level if we really wanted to. And I love the True Shadow ability, it's a very nice touch. In any case, thanks a bunch for this Elghinn, it's great! XD What do you say, OSW? Thoughts or concerns?
Let's move Shades of power to 8th. That leaves only 14th dead except for gaining 2 more spells.
| Old Man Landers |
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Honestly, I think this takes care of pretty much all my concerns. A couple of dead levels, but you gain spells, so that's not much of an issue. Could move Shadow Surge to 8th level if we really wanted to. And I love the True Shadow ability, it's a very nice touch. In any case, thanks a bunch for this Elghinn, it's great! XD What do you say, OSW? Thoughts or concerns?Let's move Shades of power to 8th. That leaves only 14th dead except for gaining 2 more spells.
That works. 2 more spells doesn't seem to dead to me.
| Bardess |
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Just a quick visit to inform you: the Covenant Champion is on the way, maybe I could post it during the next week (OSW, what if I rename it Witch Knight or Witch Defender, since your Witch/Paladin has been renamed White Witch?)
Also, I still couldn't figure very well how to state the Barehanded Warden, but I had a great idea on a Gnostic Philosopher (Cleric/Witch). It's quite simple indeed, strange that nobody did it yet!
| Oceanshieldwolf |
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@Bardess:I like Witch Defender, but Coven Champion is good too. (Covenant and Coven are two completely different words. I only had a problem with Covenant really...)
BTW - the White Witch isn't mine...It's my Feral Enforcer (Pal/Dru) a work in progress that has been renamed the Feral Champion. ;)
@Old Man Landers/Elghinn: I don't have any further comments on the Shadow Magus except... Well done!
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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@Bardess: Yeah, I like both Witch Defender and Coven Champion. Like usually, I'm sure we'll decide on the right name by the end. I'd like to see, so throw it on the thread. Also, did your Arcane Templar ever get finalized?
@OSW and Tyler: We've been working pretty hard on developing MCAs posed by the thread fans. Either of your two have MCAs you're wanting to hammer out on the thread? Or Raider and Flak while we're at it.
I'm pretty much done developing my own MCAs, and I am now focusing on hammering out other's concepts. However, as you see, I've been taking my time and working through them thoroughly, in hopes of having a pretty clean, near balanced MCA.
@EVERYONE ELSE: Here's our Wiki that has a number of completed, in progress, and in editing MCAs. Thought I'd post it again for anyone that would like to take a look.
| Bardess |
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@Elghinn
I saw that you put the Arcane Templar on the master list, but I don't know any more after that... I'm hoping you decide on it soon.^^ As I told you, I can't use HTML well, so I'll wait when you please to put the page on the site... same goes for the Merciful Redeemer and the Beastbrewer.
@OSW
Ok, I'll stick with Coven Champion then ^^
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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Merciful Redeemer and Arcane Templar are both on the list to get finalized by the MCP Crew. I had thought you and Raider were hammering something out with the Arcane Templar though?
| Bardess |
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Hmmm... I guess that we were thinking something minor about the spell list, but we decided to let the crew judge on it.
| Oceanshieldwolf |
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@Welcome TrimarkC! Glad
You liked the wiki! The Righteous Sentinel isa work in progress, awaiting a final deliberation by the MCA crew before it's posted... Elghinn can fill you in on the details...
@Elghinn: - ok, let's go with the first of mine on the Master List we haven't
worked on yet. Warwolf (Fighter/Ranger). Now this is a very specific MCA, and is
probably a commonly explored trope. Let's see if we can wring something new from the
concept. Also, Fighters are dread boring mechanically, without many option/swaps. I think this might be a good way to show people how we work it, and avoid at any point saying : "hmm, it might be easier making this a Ranger/Fighter..."
Base concept: hunter's bond: animal, wolf replaces all armor training. Problem is, rangers don't get this until fourth level.
Bravery should be replaced by a wolven ferocity type ability.
Could perhaps replace the first level bonus feat with some wolfy fighting schtick...
Hey, you know what? Maybe this would be better as a Ranger/Fighter!!! ;)
Ok, MUUUUUCH easier:
Drop all spellcasting - mm great swapmeat there. Keep this in mind...
Replace wild empathy with something wolf-crafty
Replace Endurance with a stealth feat
Replace camouflage with an improved stealth feat
Give a specific wolf flavoured wolf combat style - actually, Natural Weapon combat style would work...or we make a Wolfen Ferocity melee weapon fighting style...
Not sure what a good ability would be for swapping for spells - they don't get those until 4th either... A better, bigger trained dire wolf?
So, thoughts? (And Elghinn, you might as well swap Warwolf to Ranger/Fighter...)
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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've looked through the MCA site and really like it!! I noticed that you have several Covenant MCA's, all based off the righteous sentinel. But the Righteous Sentinel is unfinished or was pulled. I'd love to play the Covenant Against Dragons build, but I need the Paladin/Ranger stats of the Righteous Sentinel to know what its base stats are. Is it still in the works, or is there a problem with that one? Thanks!
@Welcome TrimarkC! Glad
You liked the wiki! The Righteous Sentinel isa work in progress, awaiting a final deliberation by the MCA crew before it's posted... Elghinn can fill you in on the details...
Welcome to the thread, and to our MultiClass Archetypes, TrimarkC!! I'm glad to hear you find our work interesting and desire to implement it into your own campaigns. As to the Righteous Sentinel, it is, as OSW said, undergoing final critiques. I had posted the MCA and covanents on the wiki in a preliminary fashion, but the Crew decided to remove it, since it was not "finalized" yet. The covenants were left overs and we forgot to remove them. However, that said, it appears that, finished or not, it has sparked some interest in the MCA.
We currently have many MCAs (50+) that have been created, but are undergoing going through their final critiques. But, as there are only 5 of us, and we are all busy outside of the thread, the process is slow. I hope to have the Righteous Sentinel up in a few weeks, in it's finalized form.
Currently we are trying to decide on the best method to present our MCAs on the wiki. We don't want to post unfinished MCAs, but we also realize there are many MCAs awaiting finalization. And there are various fans, like yourself, who are interested in trying one MCA or another. We will be making decisions concerning these issues in the near future. I'm afraid you'll just have to be patient.
FYI, the Righteous Sentinel as a Pal/Rgr MCA, is based somewhat on the oathbound paladin archetype, with various ranger-esque abilities to aid in their hunting of their chosen foe. I am glad you like it, it was a complex MCA to work out.
Perhaps we should get some idea from our fans, what they think, as to whether they would like to have access to our MCAs in their "unfinalized" versions, or access them only in their finished forms? WE will of course make the final decision, but some suggestions as to what you would like to see might be useful. Much like when Paizo seeks playtests for new material?
Anyways, as it sits, you will just need to await it's final version on the wiki.
| Oceanshieldwolf |
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Hey Elghinn, maybe you could just PM the draft to TriMarkC along with any caveats, thoughts or tweaks you might have in mind?
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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Hey Elghinn, maybe you could just PM the draft to TriMarkC along with any caveats, thoughts or tweaks you might have in mind?
Hmm, could do that. TrimarkC, email me to my gmail account.
| Flak RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 |
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SHADOW MAGUS IS SO COOL.
Also, I'll be watching these forums again starting now. The tab went away during my travels and it just never showed up again... until today. I'm back. Maybe someday soon I'll even contribute something positive ;)
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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@Elghinn: - ok, let's go with the first of mine on the Master List we haven't worked on yet. Warwolf (Fighter/Ranger)...
Drop all spellcasting - mm great swapmeat there. Keep this in mind...
Replace wild empathy with something wolf-crafty
Replace Endurance with a stealth feat
Replace camouflage with an improved stealth feat
Give a specific wolf flavoured wolf combat style - actually, Natural Weapon combat style would work...or we make a Wolfen Ferocity melee weapon fighting style...
Yay! Flak is back!!! Glad you love the Shadow Magus, I had fun working that one out with Old Man Landers.
@OSW: My thoughts on possible abilities are the following:
1) Hunter’s bond – must be an animal companion (wolf, and later gains dire template?)
2) Wolf Aspect – slowly transforming into a bipedal wolf over various levels, gaining scent, bite attack, grows fur, low-light vision, speed increase, natural armor bonus, racial modifier to Survival when tracking, trip special ability, etc. (check out the wolf in the Bestiary). Maybe he can gain the dire template at a later point? May want to look at the Animal Lord template (Wolf) too. This could all replace the spell casting.
3) Wolf/Pack mind– essentially speak with animals (but wolves or “caninies” only). Or an animal affinity ability. Replaces wild empathy.
4) Combat Styles: Gains natural weapon style at 2nd, then the rest are replaced with choices of certain Universal Monster Rule abilities, like Trip, Ferocity, Grab, Keen Scent, Natural Attack (bite or 2 claws), Pounce, Rake, Rend.
5) Pack Stalker/Mentality – gains improved flanking ability with allies, or even the ability to use enemies nearby for a flanking bonus.
6) Some “Howl” ability that induces fear?
7) Ability to call a wolf pack?
8) Possibly giving him the Orc racial trait “Feral”?
We don’t need to use all these, but I just wanted to throw these out to illicit some idea generation. Where exactly are you wanting to go with the War Wolf? Is he essentially a humanoid Ranger that fights like a ferocious wolf (Fighter)? What Fighter class features are you looking at incorporating into the MCA? I picture him a grizzled warrior from the back woods that has spent too long living among the wolves.
On a slight twist, depending on how focused you want this MCA to be, we could widen the scope to include a few additional animals, such as bear and cougar, rounding it out to the main 3 “wild” animals you encounter (Wolf, Bear, Wild Cat)? Then, depending upon the “animal” you choose at 1st level (sort of an Animal Affinity), then you get certain aspects of the animal as you elvel up. You’d also “speak with animal” to that type, summon a pack or that type of animal, etc.
Once we narrow your intent for this MCA, then we (especially I) can provide more focused advice and suggestions.
| Oceanshieldwolf |
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@Elghinn: Fantastic ideas and thought provoking questions.
Okay, in the interest of making a more open and less specific MCA, how about this:
1): Yes, hunter's bond. Extend choice to apex predators (and wolves - I'm not sure they are apex predators) lions, tigers, big cats etc. Gains dire template later as you said....It's still fairly specific - but I think big cats and wolves is probably all I'm thinking at the moment....
2): Wolf Aspect: Hmm. Gret idea, but not the direction I was thinking. I think there are enough mystical and magical "Aspect" MCAs and Druids already. And your point on "what fighter class features are you looking at incorporating" is a pertinent one - so keeping it more mundane gives the wiggle room for fighter combat stuff instead of spells. This guy emulates the wild beast he hangs with, but doesn't become one. See 5), below.
3): Wolf pack/mind: Not sure on this yet. "Animal affinity" seems a bit similar to "wild empathy"...
4): Combat Styles: Ooooh. I love this! That's exactly what I'm looking for.... Though, I'd like to see a choice of Natural Weapon Style OR Two-weapon Fighting AND those Universal Monster rule abilities/choices - Rake or Rend using two weapons would rock..... Does that make sense? I know they are generally natural weapon attacks/abilities, but mixing it up is what we are about....
5): Pack Stalker: loving this - we could probably fold this into fighter combat options/whatever we replace spells with. Seems kinda like a sneak attack mechanic. Maybe we can find a feat level expression of this pack-fighting technique that he must choose first where we would normally put a fighter combat feat/weapon training/armor training. So the question is - how much combat feat/weapon training/armor training is the ranger's spell casting worth? I might pose this to the MCA crew....
6): Howl and 7): Pack call. Both of these are fabulous ideas, but out of the thematic scope, especially if it's pushed out to other apex predators. Pack call feels more (Su) than (Ex), especially if he's far from home terrain....
8) Orc Feral trait. Yeah, I hear a lot of good stuff about that trait. Totally fits with the grizzled, wild raider type I'm envisioning.... He IS essentially a Humanoid Ranger that fights like a ferocious apex predator....
What do people think of Apex Warrior, Beast Predator, Reaverclaw/Battleclaw, War Beast, Clawblade, etc.... I like Apex Predator myself, though it could step on an egotistical fighter's ego....
Any more name ideas welcomed....
| Oceanshieldwolf |
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@Trogdar: Very good point on team tactics. Team feats for use with predator companion should go in the fighter combat swap-in. (Or I could make this a (Ranger/Inquisitor) and swap in some tweaked judgments/inquisitions and teamwork feats... ;)
Another good point on companion progression table. As I develop this a bit more we'll see where the balance lies...
@Bardess: trust us northerners to actually have a name for this!!! I'll stick with something double-barrelled and English though...
| RipfangOmen |
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New to these forums. And I tripped over this gem. These threads and wiki are FANTASTIC!!
I think you guys are busy with current MCAs, but I was wondering if you guys had a Fighter/Paladin or Paladin/Fighter in the works. Also, I eagerly await the Furious Fist! Finally, someone who gets it!
Edit: OSW, I like the name Apex Warrior for your MCA
| Oceanshieldwolf |
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@Ripfang: Hey welcome to the boards and to the world of MCAs...anyone who uses a gnoll for an avatar has to have good...taste?*
Thanks for the support.
I wouldn't be surprised if Elghinn didn't have a Paladin/Fighter stashed somewhere in his braindrive...
I like Apex Warrior as well, but we do wherever possible try to stick to the convention of Secondary class name/Primary class name. The first name, being the secondary class, is the descriptor for the type of Primary class the archetype is. I'm probably the most guilty of breaking this "guideline" partly because I'm a radical auto-didact who can't conform, and partly because my MCA's start out one way, and then I find they're easier to work if i swap the primary/secondary classes (a neat trick learnt from Elghinn) - the Feral Champion and Temple Dancer both finished this way, but you can see the Feral Champion had it's name back to front originally and is now "correct" whereas the Temple Dancer a Cleric/Bard (originally Bard/Cleric) had its name the right way but now has its name "incorrect". As my mother would say, "little known facts about little known facts"....
*For a bit of gnoll action you might be interested in my racial archetypes thread here:
Only got one so far, but I'll be adding more!!!
| Bardess |
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Primary Class: Paladin
Secondary Class: Witch
Alignment: LG
Hit Dice: d8
Skills: no bonus
BAB: full
Saves: GPG
Weapon/Armor: as paladin
1) Aura of good, coven, detect magic, smite evil 1/day
2) Detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands
3) Aura of courage, merciful hex
4) Eldritch bond, smite evil 2/day
5) Channel positive energy
6) Merciful hex
7) Smite evil 3/day
8) Aura of resolve
9) Merciful hex
10) Smite evil 5/day
11) Aura of vengeful curse
12) Merciful hex
13) Smite evil 5/day
14) Aura of witchcraft
15) Merciful hex
16) Smite evil 6/day
17) Aura of eldritch virtue
18) Merciful hex
19) Smite evil 7/day
20) Chosen of Holy Magic
Aura of Good: as paladin.
Coven (Ex): A coven champion can join to a witch’s coven as if she had the coven hex at 1st level. The coven champion’s coven can’t contain hags and must be formed by good-aligned witches and other characters only. Whenever the paladin’s within 30 feet of another characters with this ability, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other spellcaster’s caster level for 1 round. This and detect magic replace divine health.
Detect Magic (Sp): At will, a coven champion can use detect magic, as the spell. A coven champion can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it radiates magic, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect magic in any other object or individual within range. This and coven replace divine health.
Smite Evil (Su): As paladin, except that a coven champion doesn’t gain a bonus to damage on the first successful attack against evil undead. She instead gains the same bonus against evil creatures of the fey type.
Detect Evil (Sp): As paladin, except that the coven champion gains this ability at 2nd level.
Divine Grace (Su): As paladin.
Lay On Hands (Su): As paladin.
Aura of Courage (Su): As paladin.
Merciful Hex: A coven champion may select any witch hex in place of a mercy. At 12th level, she may select a hex or major hex. At 18th level, a coven champion can select a hex, major hex, or grand hex. She cannot select any hex more than once, unless specifically stated. Using a hex consumes one use of the coven champions’ lay on hands ability, without further effects.
A coven champion cannot select the following hexes: blight, poison steep, unnerve beasts, cook people, infected wounds, waxen image, dire prophecy. If hexes from any other source are in use, the coven champion cannot select any hex chaotic or evil in its nature.
Eldritch Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 4th level, a coven champion forms a divine bond with the divine forces which grant her powers. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.
The first type of bond is with a consecrated weapon. The coven champion’s bonded weapon counts as an athame (witchcraft’s ceremonial dagger) for all prerequisites and is considered an athame for the purpose of participating to every coven rite.
This form of bond allows the coven champion to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of an eldritch spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 4th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. At 8th level, and every three levels thereafter, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, cunning, hexing*, hexing burst*, holy, keen, merciful, speed, spell storing, and transformative (*see Rite Publishing’s 101 Weapon Properties). Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's cost (see Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities). These bonuses are added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added.
At 9th level, the coven champion’s weapon can receive the powers of any magic athame (see Super Genius Games’ #1 With a Bullet Point: 5 Magic Witch’s Daggers) for a number of rounds equal to ½ the coven champion’s level.
The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The eldritch spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the coven champion but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the coven champion. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A coven champion can use this ability once per day at 4th level, twice per day at 9th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels thereafter, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.
If a weapon bonded with an eldritch spirit is destroyed, the coven champion loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls and cannot use any hex except coven. The ritual of bonding with a new consecrated weapon costs 200 gp per coven champion’s level.
The second type of bond allows a coven champion to gain the service of a magic steed which also serves as an intermediary between her and her eldritch patron. The eldritch mount must be a CR 1 magical beast, fey animal or fey creature suitable as a mount, and is always LG, regardless of its normal alignment. Once selected, the choice is set, but it may be changed whenever the coven champion gains a level. For example, a 4th–level Small coven champion could gain the service of a krenshar, while a Medium coven champion could gain an hippocampus or giant mantari/vulchling (see the Tome of Horrors Complete). Upon reaching 5th level, the coven champion can summon a CR 2 mount (like a blink dog or hippogriff); at 7th level, she can summon a CR 3 creature (mobat, pegasus, unicorn), and each level thereafter the CR of her mount increases by one, to a maximum of CR 14 at 18th level (a young phoenix). Once per day, as a full-round action, a coven champion may magically call his magical mount to his side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the coven champion’s level. The servant immediately appears adjacent to the coven champion. A coven champion can use this ability once per day at 4th level, twice per day at 9th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.
At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial template. At 15th level, a coven champion’s steed gains spell resistance equal to the coven champion’s level + 11.
Furthermore, the coven champion’s mount also functions as a witch’s familiar, teaching and storing spells for its master; it gains the empathic link, store spells, deliver touch spells and scry on familiar abilities, and counts both as a familiar and a bonded mount for all prerequisites. Should the mount die or be banished, the coven champion may not summon another mount for 30 days or until he gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the coven champion takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls and can’t cast any spell. The ritual of bonding with another magical mount costs 500 gp per coven champion’s level.
This replaces divine bond.
Spells: as paladin, plus the coven champion gains access to some witch spells: 1st– cause fear, charm person, command, hex ward, hypnotism, identify, ill omen, lock gaze, mask dweomer, peacebond, remove sickness; 2nd– adoration, augury, daze monster, delay pain, enthrall, gentle repose, ghostly disguise, hold person, qualm, scare, see invisibility; 3rd– arcane sight, clairaudience–clairvoyance, fly, glyph of warding, heroism, locate weakness, remove disease, share senses, suggestion, twilight knife, witness; 4th– age resistance, charm monster, confusion, debilitating portent, detect scrying, divination, fear, geas–quest, locate creature, mass daze, minor creation.
Channel Positive Energy (Su): As paladin, except that the coven champion gains this ability at 5th level.
Aura of Resolve (Su): As paladin.
Aura of Vengeful Curse (Sp): At 11th level, a coven champion can expend two uses of her smite evil ability to cast bestow curse on all evil enemies within 10 feet. Each enemy may be affected by a different curse, lasting for 1 minute. Using this ability is a free action.
Aura of Witchcraft (Su): At 14th level, a coven champion’s weapons are treated as magic for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. Any attack made against an enemy within 10 feet of her is treated as magic for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.
This ability functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.
Aura of Eldritch Virtue (Su): At 17th level, a coven champion gains DR 5/magic and immunity to compulsion spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects.
This ability functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.
Chosen of Holy Magic (Su): At 20th level, the coven champion’s DR increases to 10/magic. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider or fey, the creature is also subject to a single-target holy word, using her coven champion’s level + 10 as the caster level. After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack are resolved, the smite immediately ends. In addition, whenever she uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.
New Mercy
The following new mercy is available to any class with the mercy feature as a 12th-level mercy..
Asleep: The paladin’s lay on hands acts as break enchantment on any sleep spell and effect, included the eternal slumber witch’s hex.
| Elghinn Lightbringer |
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@Ripfang: Welcome to our thread!
No, I actually don't have a Pal/Ftr (or Ftr/Pal), but could probably come up with one at some point.
And although the name schtick is a general guideline, it doesn't always end up that way. I believe I have various names that break this "rule" Although its a good guide for naming, I prefer to go with what sounds good for the MCA, though I do use the underlying rule as a guideline for that.
@OSW
1): Yes, hunter's bond. Extend choice to apex predators (and wolves - I'm not sure they are apex predators) lions, tigers, big cats etc. Gains dire template later as you said....It's still fairly specific - but I think big cats and wolves is probably all I'm thinking at the moment....
2): Wolf Aspect: Hmm. Gret idea, but not the direction I was thinking. I think there are enough mystical and magical "Aspect" MCAs and Druids already. And your point on "what fighter class features are you looking at incorporating" is a pertinent one - so keeping it more mundane gives the wiggle room for fighter combat stuff instead of spells. This guy emulates the wild beast he hangs with, but doesn't become one. See 5), below.
3): Wolf pack/mind: Not sure on this yet. "Animal affinity" seems a bit similar to "wild empathy"...
Dominion (Su)
In both forms, an animal lord is treated as if constantly under the effects of a speak with animals spell, but this only applies to creatures of the animal lord's species affinity (see below). In addition, an animal lord can cast charm animal on any animal of its affinity as a spell-like ability at will (CL equals the animal lord's HD). Species Affinity
4): Combat Styles: Ooooh. I love this! That's exactly what I'm looking for.... Though, I'd like to see a choice of Natural Weapon Style OR Two-weapon Fighting AND those Universal Monster rule abilities/choices - Rake or Rend using two weapons would rock..... Does that make sense? I know they are generally natural weapon attacks/abilities, but mixing it up is what we are about....
5): Pack Stalker: loving this - we could probably fold this into fighter combat options/whatever we replace spells with. Seems kinda like a sneak attack mechanic. Maybe we can find a feat level expression of this pack-fighting technique that he must choose first where we would normally put a fighter combat feat/weapon training/armor training. So the question is - how much combat feat/weapon training/armor training is the ranger's spell casting worth? I might pose this to the MCA crew....
6): Howl and 7): Pack call. Both of these are fabulous ideas, but out of the thematic scope, especially if it's pushed out to other apex predators. Pack call feels more (Su) than (Ex), especially if he's far from home terrain....
8) Orc Feral trait. Yeah, I hear a lot of good stuff about that trait. Totally fits with the grizzled, wild raider type I'm envisioning.... He IS essentially a Humanoid Ranger that fights like a ferocious apex predator....
HALF-ORC (Wolf)
Bestial: The orc blood of some half-orcs manifests in the form of particularly prominent orc features, exacerbating their bestial appearances but improving their already keen senses. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. This racial trait replaces orc ferocity.
Cavewight: Some half-orcs live far below the surface, seeking freedom in winding cave complexes. Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +1racial bonus on Knowledge (dungeoneering) and Survival checks made underground. This racial trait replaces the intimidating trait.
Forest Walker: More at home in the forests and jungles of the world, these half-orcs are well adapted to their surroundings. Half-orcs with this trait have low-light vision and gain a +2 racial bonus on Climb checks. This racial trait replaces darkvision.
Rock Climber: Half-orcs from mountainous regions are excellent climbers, and sometimes ambush prey by leaping down from above. Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +1 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb checks. This racial trait replaces the intimidating trait.
Toothy: Some half-orcs' tusks are large and sharp, granting a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of piercing damage. This racial trait replaces orc ferocity.
ELF (Cat)
Fleet-Footed: While all elves are naturally lithe and agile, some also are naturally speedy and have a strong desire to rush into situations rather than worrying about looking ahead. Elves with this racial trait receive Run as a bonus feat and a +2 racial bonus on initiative checks. This racial trait replaces keen senses and weapon familiarity.
Silent Hunter: Elves are renowned for their subtlety and skill. Elves with this racial trait reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this racial trait). This racial trait replaces elven magic.
Woodcraft: Elves know the deep secrets of the wild like no others, especially secrets of the forests. Elves with this racial trait gain a +1racial bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. In forest terrain, these bonuses improve to +2. This racial trait replaces elven magic.
DWARF (Bear)
Hardy: Dwarves gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities.
Stability: Dwarves gain a +4 racial bonus to their Combat Maneuver Defense when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground.
Mountaineer: Mountain dwarves are skilled at climbing and navigating narrow ledges. Dwarves with this racial trait are immune to altitude sickness and do not lose their Dexterity bonus to AC when making Climb or Acrobatics checks to cross narrow or slippery surfaces. This racial trait replaces stability.
Relentless: Dwarves are skilled at pushing their way through a battlefield, tossing aside lesser foes with ease. Dwarves with this racial trait receive a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to bull rush or overrun an opponent. This bonus only applies while both the dwarf and his opponent are standing on the ground. This racial trait replaces stability.
Rock Stepper: Dwarves with this racial trait can skillfully negotiate rocky terrain. They can ignore difficult terrain created by rubble, broken ground, or steep stairs when they take a 5-foot step. This racial trait replaces stonecunning.
| RipfangOmen |
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Thanks for the welcome! Honestly, I'm not sure why the combo of Ftr/Pal interests me so much. Not really sure what you could do except bolster the 'tankish' feel you can get with either class. I think a Pal/Ftr that focuses more on martial ability than divine ability would be interesting, but I'm not really sure. My brain's a little fried now, so I'll leave it at that. I'll check in later and see if you guys have any updates! This 'Apex Warrior' looks pretty cool!
| Flak RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 |
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Because paladins and fighters are so similar in role and ability (yeah, just having a d10 hit die is a pretty huge similarity), a paladin/fighter (or vice versa) I think would need to be pretty creative to be interesting. If you just swap some fighter abilities for some paladin abilities, you end up with a watered-down paladin. I think the key to a flavorful MCA here might be to focus away from X training and combat feats and tanking and maybe toward what the fighter does in some of its archetypes: combat maneuvers! Expertise in warfare! And also looking at what the paladin does that isn't just being a fighter: the mount's not a very interesting object, because of cavaliers; but lay on hands? Mercies? Auras? There might be a cool intersection somewhere if you deemphasize the commonalities. If "ultratank" is your idea of a good time, I guess there's no reason for us not to have an ultratank, but I think there's probably room for other ideas. =)