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MultiClass Archetypes III: The Return of the MCA


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

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"I added Seminary due to the fact that Since holy people are all about will power why not give that to a Paladin already, plus if you still want to be the party face, as is usually required to keep things civil according to your alignment, you still need a good Cha meaning you'll still be MAD."

'If' you still want to be the party face, sure. Not every paladin takes that spot; and the gruff dwarf isn't likely too, for example. Paladins tend to become the party face -because- they require charisma, not because the person playing them -wants- to be the party face.

"as for the low cost of Cure moderate wounds: remember the Hand will only have so many Ki points a day so he has to make a choice wheather to use those points to heal or to smash, effectivly making him less useful than a bard in terms of spells since he will probably spend those points on feats instead."

Falsity. He ends up with around 14+ cure mods a day, more than the average paladin. This is a maximum limit, and spontaneous. Never make the 'probably assumption' when the possibility is what matters.

Draconic Reservoir does not become useless at high levels as it still adds to total damage output, is more potent based on level, and has a longer duration than Ki Leech. Don't assume same level 'power' = same cost.

Divine Bond in either form still ignores AC to a large degree. This is the issue at hand.
-----
I don't see how you believe I'm 'upset' over this? I see issues, I step in to point them out, I give alternatives if I have them. It's what I do and what I've done since the start, and it obviously works. (Glances at the wiki.) If it's offensive to you for me to be holding that stop sign, I apologize, but don't ignore the severe problems presented just because you don't like the source.

Now, as far as alternatives...

Drop Lay on hands in addition to spellcasting, then try adding the qingong powers at the same speed and 'caster level' as the qinggong monk. Dropping healing/spellcasting for some feat and 'spell' use should be far more balanced.

Drop Draconic Reservoir, keep Ki Leech. The former has a variety of issues and I don't think it's quite in flavor with this archetype.

Divine Bond- Why have it reduce AC at all? It's a full-BAB unarmed paladin/monk, that's plenty awesome without resorting to Magical Christmas Land. Have it ignore some forms of DR. Or work in a Flurry concept- spend one standard action, hit twice at -2. Not -really- flurry of blows, but an appropriate variation that could certainly add in a little fun and a new tactical option.


Quintin Belmont wrote:

on a different note here's my Witch/Cleric MCA:

** spoiler omitted **...

MUCH better. Giving up a witch spell slot and some Hexes for a domain spell slot? Not a bad way to work it.

A few thoughts- Cloistered Study is a bit strong. I'd say keep it to the wisdom add, to avoid hitting the Bard's territory too strongly.

Also, does the Consecrated Acolyte gain Domain Powers, or just the spells? I'd say remove hexes at the levels they gain domain powers.

Needs a capstone. Something small-ish, but handy... Instinct says +2 int, which is a standard go-to capstone when there's nothing more fitting. Let's see what we can come up with, though?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah I'm liking the Consecrated Acolyte. I liked Pacted, though I probably would have gone for Pact-bound Acolyte.

It's a nice and simple MCA. My only query is that this guy seems to be both a cloistered cleric type AND then gains Medium armor training? I can't believe I'm saying this (as an armored witch fanboy) but the theme is confusing for me...

I get that he is a champion of his patron, so suiting up and smashing foes seems good and true to theme. I don't mind the holy scholar/warrior idea, I guess it just doesn't seem so "Witchy". I guess the Cleric bit shines through there...Just a thought. I'd rather see a different flavor for the same mechanics. "Patron's Chosen/Gift/Student or something similar... I'm fine if you want to leave it though Quintin...


blahpers wrote:
Any plans for three-class archetypes? Sometimes I kinda miss cleric/fighter/mage and fighter/mage/thief from the old days.

You know, thinking on this, I think we've done some that are 'fitting'.

Trick Blade could easily be seen as Fighter/Mage/Thief.
And Cleric/Fighter/Mage, Devout Thespian? Okay, this is a little harder to stretch.

I doubt we'll ever do three-class multiclass archetypes, but we may have some support for them someday... No promises, don't get your hopes up, but once the seed is planted- welllll, you knoooow. ;3


I'll take a look at the Hand of Fate tonight and see about tweaking things.

@Quintin: FYI, this is how we (MCP) have developed many of the well-balanced MCAs we have thus far. Each of us in the group have our strengths and weaknesses, and that's why what we do works well. I ro example usually have good ideas, creative thinking, etc., BUT I tend to be overpowered in my initial creations. That why we often look to Raider and Flak to pare things down and help to find the right balance. If you looked through our 2 previous threads (and I don't expect you too if you haven't) you'dsee ample examples of this. That's why we've established a 4 vote policy to placing MCAs in the Wiki. So, don't be too hard on Raider, he does what he does very well, just like the rest of us do what we're good at very well.

I shall post an updated version of the Hand of Fate in the next day or so. Looks like Raider and OSW have your Consecrated Acolyte well in hand.


@Raider:

Drop Lay on hands in addition to spellcasting, then try adding the qingong powers at the same speed and 'caster level' as the qinggong monk. Dropping healing/spellcasting for some feat and 'spell' use should be far more balanced.

One problem, dropping lay on hands kills mercy too, so we'd needsomething to replace that. or tweak it. Actually I have a possible monk-esque idea there.

Drop Draconic Reservoir, keep Ki Leech. The former has a variety of issues and I don't think it's quite in flavor with this archetype.

Divine Bond- Why have it reduce AC at all? It's a full-BAB unarmed paladin/monk, that's plenty awesome without resorting to Magical Christmas Land. Have it ignore some forms of DR. Or work in a Flurry concept- spend one standard action, hit twice at -2. Not -really- flurry of blows, but an appropriate variation that could certainly add in a little fun and a new tactical option.

My original idea was to replace the reduce AC with a monks flurry of blows while the bond is in effect if the Hand chooses to enhance his unarmed strike. Felt right as a flavor thing, and mechanically. Should have listened to myself. I'll post the revised H of F in a bit.


OK, here's my revamp of the Hand of Fate.

Hand of Fate v.2:

Paladins are no stranger to training one’s body in order to fight the pawns of injustice, however some take it a step further and turn their bodies into weapons themselves, rending all evil in their path no matter their defenses.

Primary Class: Paladin.
Secondary Class: Monk.
Alignment: Lawful good.
Hit Dice: d10.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The hand of fate selects three monk skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal paladin class skills. At 1st level, a hand of fate may select the monk’s Acrobatics skill in place of the paladin’s Ride skill. The hand of fate gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The hand of fate is proficient with all simple and monk weapons, and with five martial weapons of his choice. The hand of fate is proficient with light and medium armor, and with light shields, and the buckler.

Code of Conduct: A hand of fate must adhere to the guidelines presented in the paladin’s code of conduct.

Monastic Seminary (Ex): The hand of fate can modify his divine focus so that the powers granted to him by his deity are dependent upon his willpower and intuition instead of strength of personality. Upon learning this discipline, the hand of fate replaces all Charisma-based requirements for all paladin abilities to that of Wisdom-based. The hand of fate must select this ability at 1st level, and once selected it cannot be changed.

Smite Evil (Su): This is exactly like the paladin’s ability of the same name, except that this ability also applies to his unarmed strikes.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a hand of fate gains the monk’s unarmed strike ability, except that the hand of fate deals unarmed damage as indicated on Table: Hand of Fate. This ability counts for any feat with Improved Unarmed Strike as its prerequisite.

Divine Stance (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever a hand of fate selects a combat feat, he counts 1/2 his level as his fighter level for any combat feats with fighter level requirements. The hand of fate otherwise counts his hand of fate level as his paladin or monk level for any feats with base attack bonus, class, or level requirements, such as Style feats. This ability replaces divine health.

Merciful Trance (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a hand of fate can enter a meditative trance to remove a condition that is currently affecting him. At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, a hand of fate can select one mercy from those listed in the paladin’s mercy ability. Whenever the hand of fate uses merciful trance, he can remove all the conditions of each mercy he’s chosen. Merciful trance can remove a condition caused by a curse, disease, or poison without curing the affliction. Such conditions return after 1 hour unless the mercy actually removes the affliction that causes the condition. A hand of fate can use merciful trance a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Wisdom or Charisma modifier (see Monastic Seminary), as a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces mercy.

Divine Quickening (Su): At 4th level, a hand of fate is blessed with divine powers that augment his physical prowess. The hand of fate gains a ki pool that has a number of points equal to 1/2 his hand of fate level (see below) + his Wisdom or Charisma (see Monastic Seminary) modifier. At 4th level, and every 2 levels thereafter, a hand of fate can select a ki power for which he qualifies from those listed in the qinggong monk archetype entry (see p.52 of Ultimate Magic). These powers are also dependant upon the hand of fate’s Wisdom or Charisma ability (see Monastic Seminary). This ability functions like the qinggong monk’s ki power (which is part of the monk’s Ki Pool class feature), except that the hand of fate’s effective monk level when determining the number of points in his ki pool is equal to his hand of fate level –3. Thus, a 7th level hand of fate would have a number of ki points in his pool equal to 2 + his Wisdom or Charisma modifier. This ability replaces lay on hands and the paladin’s spellcasting ability.

The hand of fate replaces the following qinggong monk ki powers with the listed spells below, at the indicated level.

Level Qinggong Monk Ki Power New Ki Power
4th Hydralic push Litany of righteousness (2 points)
4th Scorching ray Vestment of the champion (1 point)
6th Gaseous form Burst of speed (2 points)
6th Hydraulic torrent Water walk (1 point)
8th Poison Cure moderate wounds (1 point)
10th Spit venom Force punch (2 points)
14th Blood crow strike Fire of vengeance (2 point)
14th Cold ice strike Leashed shackle (3 points)

Divine Bond (Sp): At 5th level, a hand of fate must select the weapon bond, and can only enhance a weapon that he is proficient with, including his unarmed strikes. If the hand of fate chooses to enhance his unarmed strikes, he gains the monk’s flurry of blows while the bond is in effect. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces divine bond.

At 5th level, the hand of fate that enhances his unarmed strike may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the hand of fate uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 12th level, the hand of fate can make two additional attacks with his flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the hand of fate does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 19th level, the hand of fate can make three additional attacks with his flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the hand of fate does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

Aura of Faith: This is exactly like the paladin’s ability of the same name, except that this ability also applies to the hand of fate’s unarmed strikes.

Table: Hand of Fate
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Unarmed
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Damage

1st +1 +0 +2 +2 Aura of good, detect evil, monastic seminary, 1d4
smite evil 1/day, unarmed strike
2nd +2 +0 +3 +3 Divine grace, divine stance 1d4
3rd +3 +1 +3 +3 Aura of courage, merciful trance 1d4
4th +4 +1 +4 +4 Channel positive energy, quickening power 1d4
smite evil 2/day
5th +5 +1 +4 +4 Divine bond 1d6
6th +6/+1 +2 +5 +5 Merciful trance, quickening power 1d6
7th +7/+2 +2 +5 +5 Smite evil 3/day 1d6
8th +8/+3 +2 +6 +6 Aura of resolve, quickening power 1d6
9th +9/+4 +3 +6 +6 Merciful trance 1d8
10th +10/+5 +3 +7 +7 Smite evil 4/day, quickening power 1d8
11th +11/+6/+1 +3 +7 +7 Aura of justice 1d8
12th +12/+7/+2 +4 +8 +8 Merciful trance, quickening power 1d8
13th +13/+8/+3 +4 +8 +8 Smite evil 5/day 1d10
14th +14/+9/+4 +4 +9 +9 Aura of faith, quickening power 1d10
15th +15/+10/+5 +5 +9 +9 Merciful trance 1d10
16th +16/+11/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Smite evil 6/day, quickening power 1d10
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Aura of righteousness 2d6
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Merciful trance, quickening power 2d6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Smite evil 7/day 2d6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Holy champion, quickening power 2d6


"Monastic Seminary (Ex): The hand of fate can modify his divine focus so that the powers granted to him by his deity are dependent upon his willpower and intuition instead of strength of personality. Upon learning this discipline, the hand of fate replaces all Charisma-based requirements for all paladin abilities to that of Wisdom-based. The hand of fate must select this ability at 1st level, and once selected it cannot be changed."

Same issue as before. Afraid there's no way I can pass this so long as the ability exists- it alone helps make Hand of Fate -better- than the actual paladin class, which is not the goal.

Merciful Trance is cool!

The Divine Bond Fury is... good. Sure, it's 'three feats', but it's over a number of levels. *thumbs up*

Toss out Monastic Seminary for something, and I can approve this.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Raiderrpg wrote:

"Monastic Seminary (Ex): The hand of fate can modify his divine focus so that the powers granted to him by his deity are dependent upon his willpower and intuition instead of strength of personality. Upon learning this discipline, the hand of fate replaces all Charisma-based requirements for all paladin abilities to that of Wisdom-based. The hand of fate must select this ability at 1st level, and once selected it cannot be changed."

Same issue as before. Afraid there's no way I can pass this so long as the ability exists- it alone helps make Hand of Fate -better- than the actual paladin class, which is not the goal.

Merciful Trance is cool!

The Divine Bond Fury is... good. Sure, it's 'three feats', but it's over a number of levels. *thumbs up*

Toss out Monastic Seminary for something, and I can approve this.

Personally I don't think it is too ridiculous. How about you specify some abilities for it to apply to, instead of every single one? For example, add wisdom mod to saves, to AC, and for smites per day. Hmmm. Though I think that covers everything that is not replaced.

Yeah, my opinion is that it is not unreasonable to let this mca be completely wisdom-based. Sorry raider.


I believe we have other MCAs with similar abilities, that allow them to ruduce the MAD factor of the MCA. Don't ask me which ones, there's too many to go through. To me its simply part of the synergy effect of melding two classes. Let's see what OSW or Flak say on this particular matter.

Paladins need a good Cha, Str, and Con to do well. Monks, Dex, Wis, and Int, Con doesn't hurt either. I think reducing the MAD factor by one is worth it.I really don't think it's OP.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

If you don't make paladin abilities WIS based you need to make the monk abilities CHA based. Go for whichever is less funky flavorwise. No matter what you'll be MAD, needing STR, CON, and either CHA or WIS, without being able to dump DEX completely.

p.s. in case Raider is specifically afraid of WIS-based divine grace (which is a reasonable fear), just swap divine grace out for something else. That ability is totally imba anyway and no class should get it. My 2¢. :)


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Interestingly, Quintin's original HoF writeup specified that the HoF could choose Wisdom or Charisma at 1st level, but that the choice, once made, was irrevocable. Maybe take Monastic Seminary back to its roots...Seems to offer the choice of which way to go for a particular HoF...


"p.s. in case Raider is specifically afraid of WIS-based divine grace (which is a reasonable fear), just swap divine grace out for something else. That ability is totally imba anyway and no class should get it. My 2¢. :)"

Not my only concern, but it is a rather potent ability.


@Raider
Some non-core paladin spells that I'd find useful for the Arcane Templar: (1st) bowstaff, compel hostility, grace, hero's defiance, knight's calling, (2nd) aura of greater courage, blessing of courage and life, holy shield, instant armor, light lance, righteous vigor, vestment of the champion, (3rd) blade of bright victory, deadly juggernaut, sanctify armor, wrathful mantle, (4th) king's castle.
What do you think about my last version of templar champion?


Can you repost? Got lost in the shuffle. And I'll try to toss up the new spell list this afternoon.

I think some of those might be good for it... hmmm.

Silver Crusade

I have one problem with keeping Ki Leech.

if you look at the Spell Entry its say "School: Necromany [Evil]"

....Anyone else see the problem of having a Paladin use this spell ability?

Also I feel incredibly reluctant in letting a Paladin have Flurry of Blows since it makes me think "Why not play a Monk?"

Y'see, in my mind a monk or monk/paladin will use flurry since the character is like Kenshiro and is proficient in Hokuto Shin Ken. Whereas in my mind a Paladin/Monk would use something more along the lines or Krav Maga or Muay Thai, not flashy or fast, but still efective in a militaristic sort of way...plus I have a personal thing against Flurry

overall I like the changes and find them to be very likable and balanced

Also I'm sorry if I seem to overtly defensive about my work. I will be the first to say that I have no skill when it comes to crunching and often when i get vested in something I get too stupid to look at anything proper until an hour later. I mainly design things for flavor and hope someone can comealong and help me with the statistics and also be able to deal with my own pig-headedness.

So I would like to formally say I'm sorry if I have offended anyone.


Here

Bardess wrote:


Templar Champion (Su): At 20th level, the arcane templar becomes a true receptacle of divine wrath and arcane power. Whenever he uses his spell combat ability, he does not need to make a concentration check to cast the spell defensively. Whenever the magus uses his merciful hand ability in conjunction with spell combat and the target of merciful hand is the same creature as his melee attacks, as long as the enemy's evil, he can choose to either increase the DC to resist the positive energy by +2, inflict the maximum possible positive energy damage, or grant himself a +2 circumstance bonus on all attack rolls made against the target during his turn.


@Quintin:

Good point about Ki Leech. That IS a problem.

On another note...

"Also I'm sorry if I seem to overtly defensive about my work. I will be the first to say that I have no skill when it comes to crunching and often when i get vested in something I get too stupid to look at anything proper until an hour later. I mainly design things for flavor and hope someone can comealong and help me with the statistics and also be able to deal with my own pig-headedness."

I totally understand this. A few of the MCAs are based on old Characters of mine. The Spellthief was one that Flak and I had to hammer out...alot...because I had a specific vision and didnnt like it being pared down. BUT, in the end it worked out more balanced and playable.

I've learned to scaple my own things at times because of working with the rest of these guys. Its all a learning process and we allhave learned to "play nice together" inspite of everyone's different personalities. Also, sometimes ideas in an MCA neeed to change for balance, mechanical, or other purposes to make it work. Like our Guideline says, this is almost an artform, finding all the right pieces and then fitting them together in a balanced way.

@OSW: Monastic Seminary still is"irrevocable"

Monastic Seminary (Ex): The hand of fate can modify his divine focus so that the powers granted to him by his deity are dependent upon his willpower and intuition instead of strength of personality. Upon learning this discipline, the hand of fate replaces all Charisma-based requirements for all paladin abilities to that of Wisdom-based. The hand of fate must select this ability at 1st level, and once selected it cannot be changed.

@Flak: As for Monastic Seminary,wouldit be better to state that you can either change Wis to Cha or Cha to Wis? thus making Paladin abilities rely on Wis, OR Monk abilities rely on Cha. As it's written the only option is to make Cha into Wis.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

@Quintin:

Good point about Ki Leech. That IS a problem.

On another note...

"Also I'm sorry if I seem to overtly defensive about my work. I will be the first to say that I have no skill when it comes to crunching and often when i get vested in something I get too stupid to look at anything proper until an hour later. I mainly design things for flavor and hope someone can comealong and help me with the statistics and also be able to deal with my own pig-headedness."

I totally understand this. A few of the MCAs are based on old Characters of mine. The Spellthief was one that Flak and I had to hammer out...alot...because I had a specific vision and didnnt like it being pared down. BUT, in the end it worked out more balanced and playable.

I've learned to scaple my own things at times because of working with the rest of these guys. Its all a learning process and we allhave learned to "play nice together" inspite of everyone's different personalities. Also, sometimes ideas in an MCA neeed to change for balance, mechanical, or other purposes to make it work. Like our Guideline says, this is almost an artform, finding all the right pieces and then fitting them together in a balanced way.

@OSW: Monastic Seminary still is"irrevocable"

Monastic Seminary (Ex): The hand of fate can modify his divine focus so that the powers granted to him by his deity are dependent upon his willpower and intuition instead of strength of personality. Upon learning this discipline, the hand of fate replaces all Charisma-based requirements for all paladin abilities to that of Wisdom-based. The hand of fate must select this ability at 1st level, and once selected it cannot be changed.

@Flak: As for Monastic Seminary,wouldit be better to state that you can either change Wis to Cha or Cha to Wis? thus making Paladin abilities rely on Wis, OR Monk abilities rely on Cha. As it's written the only option is to make Cha into Wis.

I think Cha into Wis makes more sense, personally. I also dont' think you should drop adding Wis or Cha to saves, since a paladin gets to add Cha to saves and a monk gets to add Wis to saves... you should get one or the other for sure.


Then we should add the following.

Divine Grace (Su): This is exactly like the paladin’s ability of the same name, except that the hand of fate can add his Wisdom or Charisma modifier to all his saves (see Monastic Seminary).

Also, with the Ki Leech power, I suggest this:

10th Ki leech = Divine transfer* (2 points)


Right, this is as far as I have got. It turns out that balancing issues are the most important thing in these builds it seems so while this isn't totally completed I wanted to show people what I've done and get some additional tips and ideas upon how to round it out.

Evolutionist (Both name and fluff text are likely to change, but still....)
Not all sorcerers are proud of the heritage they carry in their veins, and for a limited few they turn that hatred outwards. Through a secret alchemical process they find a way to forge their mystic gifts into physical traits, granting them the strength and power necessary to bring down their quarry.

Primary Class: Ranger
Secondary Class: Summoner
Hit Dice: D10
Bonus Skills/Ranks: 4+ Intelligence modifier per level, with 3 additional class skills selected from the Summoners list.
Base Attack: +1
Saves: Good Reflex/Will
Weapons/Armour Proficiencies: Light Armour, no shields, all simple and martial weapons, all natural weapons. (Decreased armor since additional weapon group was added)
Spell Casting: As Ranger (See below for altered spell lists)

Level Special
1st 1st Favored Enemy, Track, Basic Adaption
2nd Evolution Point (1)
3rd Adaption
4th
5th 2nd Favored Enemy
6th Evolution Point (2 Total)
7th
8th Morphic Form, Adaption
9th Evasion
10th 3rd Favored Enemy, Evolution Point (4 Total)
11th
12th
13th Adaption
14th Evolution Point (6 Total)
15th 4th Favored Enemy
16th Improved Evasion
17th
18th Adaption, Evolution Point (8 Total)
19th
20th 5th Favored Enemy

Favored Enemy: This would have to be either Magical Beast, Abberation or Dragon. They can be taken in any order but no others can be selected until these three have.

Basic Adaption: The Evolutionist is forever altered by the formula that enters his body, outwardly his appearance is tainted somewhat dependent upon which supernatural creatures blood was used within the concoction. The infusion type also alters access to later evolution pool choices.

Behir: +1 Natural AC (Serpentine)
Manticore: +5ft Movement (Quadruped)
Owlbear: +2 to Fortitude saving throws (Biped)

I wanted to lock any Evolutionist into a specific selection with EP without granting them a huge advantage, I think this is about the equal of Wild Empathy.

Adaption: As Infiltrator archetype abilities.
(This should better represent a short term ability to better adapt to fight a particular foe).

Evolution Points: This is the growing pool for the Evolutionist to use on alterations. I originally scaled it much higher but found that with too many points the class would overpower situational buff classes (such as Alchemist and Barbarian). With 8 points at the highest level you can have a few great traits without ruling in multiple situations. I feel that since your Evolutions are semi-permanent this is a fair payoff.

Morphic Form: Grants the Evolutionist the ability to shift his selected evolution point pool. This is allowable once a week at 8th level, with one additional time per week every 5 levels after (13th and 18th).
(I think that allowing an experienced Evolutionist the chance to shift more makes sense, and given the pool restrictions should still maintain some balance).

Spell Casting Maintains as a ranger, since I feel that someone hunting supernatural monsters may need an edge, and the ability to prep spells for particular hunts, coupled with adaption and Morphic Form allows for a decent amount of choice without expanding options too far.

With that said I have tweaked this lists slightly, removing animal and plant based spells and adding in there place a small amount of summoner spells.

At current this is the access I propose.
1st-Level Ranger Spells
Alarm, Delay Poison,Detect Poison,Endure Elements,Jump, Long strider, Magic Fang, Pass without Trace,Read Magic, Resist Energy,Protection from chaos/evil/good/law,Daze monster.

2nd-Level Ranger Spells
Bark skin, Bear's Endurance, Cat's Grace, Cure Light Wounds, Owl's Wisdom
Protection from Energy, Snare,Spike Growth,Wind Wall,evolution surge (lesser),spider climb.

3rd-Level Ranger Spells
Cure Moderate Wounds,Dark vision,Magic Fang (Greater)Neutralize Poison Remove Disease,Water Walk,Charm Monster,Displacement, Evolution Surge.

4th-Level Ranger Spells
Commune with Nature, Cure Serious Wounds, Freedom of Movement Non-detection, evolution surge (Greater), Hold Monster.

So far this spell list is only from the core book but has been heavily reduced. If anyone has any spells that could add to it I'll happily add them.

The class currently has alot of holes within it. thematically its already doing much more what I wanted it to but I feel that the level 20 ability could be something like "Final Metamorphosis" that added a permanent sub-type or some such thing...

As to the other gaps I'm not sure, neither class has abilities within those slots that quite fit the image of a mystic monster hunter, so perhaps, if people have some time they could offer me a few suggestions.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

How about, for balance reasons, capping Divine Grace at +2 to all saves? It's still a powerful boost, but much harder to abuse.


That's doable.

Ascetic Grace (Su): This is similar to the paladin’s divine grace ability, but it only provides the hand of fate a +2 bonus to all saving throws. This ability replaces divine grace.

What about it bumping to +4 at say, 11th level?

Qadira

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

That's doable.

Ascetic Grace (Su): This is similar to the paladin’s divine grace ability, but it only provides the hand of fate a +2 bonus to all saving throws. This ability replaces divine grace.

What about it bumping to +4 at say, 11th level?

How about making it worth half? This way if your Cha keeps going up, you're at least gaining some benefit from it.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Hm. Half Cha to saves. Seems fine.


Sosomething like this?

Divine Grace (Su): This is exactly like to the paladin’s ability of the same name, but the hand of fate adds only half his Wisdom or Charisma (see Monastic Seminary) modifier to all saving throws.


Let's go with that if Flak is OK with it. It does seem fair, not too much, whether Cha or Wis.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Well, Raider was the one who was saying monastic seminary was too much, not me :)


I know. I don't think Monastic Seminary is such a breaker thing. Like said previously, you still need to worry about Str, Dex, Wis (if you pick it), and likely Con, Int if you want skills. Still MAD just not as MAD as it might be.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Also, I know this might be a strange critique at this point, but "Hand of Fate?" Seems more like an oracle thing than a palimonk thing.


True. That's Changeable too. Possible rename suggestions? Quintin, you can pipe in here too. Hand was obviously monk related, fate is robably refering to divine, god-esque.

Divine Hand?
Monastic Knight?
Knight Templar?


May I suggest "Divine Athlete"?
PS. I'd also like to call dibbs on an Alchemist/Summoner... it's been a while since I last tried to make my Beastbrewer a reality, and now that I'm a little more skilled maybe I can make it work. But only when I finish my other current MCAs.

Silver Crusade

The reason I picked the name Hand of Fate was because I had orriginally named it Hand of Faith, but changed it after watching Mystery Science Theater 3000...Nerd Alert!

Anyway another names I can think of are

Fisticar
Unarmed Crusader
and Living Weapon

As for other Dibbs for MCAs...

I call Bard/Alchemist and Oracle/Wizard

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

FISTICAR lolololol
I love it. :)


I like Hand of Faith.

Quintin and Bardess, you dibbs have been noted.

Silver Crusade

Thank you, both of you.
oh, and while I'm at it here are some fixes for Consecrated Acolyte (keeping the name)

Consecrated Acolyte:

All witches are aware, at least in passing, that thier powers are gained from some powerful entity. While most ignore this entity, not wanting to look a gift horse in the mouth, few seek for knowledge of the being, and fewer still end up learning of and worshipping this entity. For thier obedience they are gifted in mighty arcane powers beyond the scope of thier common witch brethren.

Primary Class: Witch
Secondary Class: Cleric
Alignment: Within one step of Patron's Alignment
Hit Dice: d6

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The Consecrated Acolyte selects three Cleric skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal witch class skills. The Consecrated Acolyte gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Consecrated Acolyte is proficient with all simple weapons and his Patron's Favored Weapon(see Below). He is proficient with Light armors and Bucklers, other forms of armor interferes with the Acolyt's guestures which can cause somatic componants to fail

Patron's Bonding: The Acolyte is fully aware of His patron and not only knows who or what the power is but also revere's it. Due to the Acolyte's close ties to his patron he gains proficiency in his favored weapon and can still cast spells while weilding it. if the Patron is a Deity or other divine power then one can use their favored weapon. If not then one can (with GM approval) choose a thematically apropriate weapon.

Patron Domain: Instead of gaining extra spells from the Patron selection instead the Consecrated Acolyte chooses a single Cleric Domain (including spells and powers) at 1st level, treating his Witch level as his cleric level. This replaces the normal Patron spell selections.

Diminished Spell Casting: THe Consecrated Acolyte's number of non-domain spells per day for each spell level is one less than normal. If this reduces the number of spells per day for that level to 0, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Intelligence score for that level, plus his domain spell for that level.

Pup Familiar: Since the Acolyte has such a strong personal bond with his patron his Familiar is somewhat diminished. At first level the Acolyte's familiar gains the Young Template and don't offer a bonus thier thier master like normal familiars do. Any other familiars gained also recieve inherit these changes. This replaces and otherwise functions exactly like a normal Witch's familiar

Cloistered Study: At 6th level a Consecrated Acolyte is able to add his Wis Modifier plus half his class level (rounded down) on all knowledge and spell craft checks. This replaces 6th level Hex.

Zealot's Training: at 10th level the Consecrated Acolyte gains proficiency in Medium armor and is no longer susceptible to Arcane spell failure while wearing it. This Replaces the 10th level Hex.

Strengthened Faith: at 18th the Consecrated Acolyte gains access to a second domain and treats his effective cleric level for it as his wizard level -5. This replaces Grand Hex

Table: Consecrated Acolyte
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Cantrips,Hex,Pup Familiar 3 0
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 hex 4 1
3rd +1 +3 +1 +3 4 2 0
4th +2 +4 +1 +4 hex 4 3 1
5th +2 +4 +1 +4 4 3 2 1
6th +3 +5 +2 +5 Cloistered Study 4 3 3 1
7th +3 +5 +2 +5 4 4 3 2 0
8th +4 +6 +2 +6 hex 4 4 3 2 1
9th +4 +6 +3 +6 4 4 4 3 2 0
10th +5 +7 +3 +7 Zealot's training 4 4 4 3 3 1
11th +5 +7 +3 +7 4 4 4 4 3 2 0
12th +6/+1 +8 +4 +8 hex 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
13th +6/+1 +8 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 0
14th +7/+2 +9 +4 +9 hex 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
15th +7/+2 +9 +5 +9 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 0
16th +8/+3 +10 +5 +10 hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
17th +8/+3 +10 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 0
18th +9/+4 +11 +6 +11 hex,Strengthened Faith 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
19th +9/+4 +11 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2
20th +10/+5 +12 +6 +12 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3


Monk/Wizard is giving me a few balance issues, but I -do- have it written up. Should be posted soonish.

And I've got an Wizard/Witch idea that is gonna rock ze house of rock to the point of rocking rocks.

Bardess, "inflict the maximum possible positive energy damage". Let's Empower instead of Maximize? A definite number can be dangerous, but I don't mind giving them the possibility of more damage.


...

...

OhgodElanisaEuriditeBardMaybeWut

No not really but come on, that is HILARIOUS when you consider it. xD


Still waiting for that Sor/Alc you were going to do too, Raider. :D

BTW, anyone gonna bite on the Aegis Lancer, or shall I just throw that into the emails?

Crimson Seeker, i shall take a look tonight at your Evolutionist. Probably needs a new name, but that will do for now. I just hope it's different from my Ranger/Summoner the Tandem Hunter.

Edit: Yeah, Raider, that link is about right, hey? LOL Made me giggle.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

BTW, the word is "erudite."

I just submitted my final assignment of the semester—and hopefully of my undergraduate career. I'll be easing back into full capacity on this project soon. :)

Silver Crusade

Here is my next masterpiece! I know it has quite a lot of problems, so please help with the crunch!

Also a metaphysical cookie to whoever figures out what Table-top Stratagy game I besed this off.

Cosmic Defender:

Many paladins are able to channel the powers of righteousness to fight evil...but some go further. These brave souls channel the infinite power of the multiverse into thier body, using it to empower themselves beyond reckoning...but at the cost of thier own minds!

Primary Class: Paladin
Secondary Class: Oracle
Alignment: Lawful Good

Hit Dice: D10
BAB: Full
Fort:Good
Ref:Poor
Will:Good

Spells:(see Magia Concentretus)

Bonus Skills/Ranks: The Cosmic Defender selects three Oracl skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal paladin class skills. The Consecrated Acolyte gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.

Weapons/Armour Proficiencies: All Simple and Martial weapons, All armors, No shields

Initiatus Astartes: Starting at 2nd Level the Cosmic defender is able to goin access to mystery powers. at levels 2, 3, 8, 11, 14, and 17 they can chooses any one mystery power from the Mysteries of Ancestor, Bones, Dark Tapestry, Heavens, Life (except for channel),and Time. this replaces Divine Grace, Aura of Courage, Aura of Resolve, Aura of Justice, Aura of Faith, and Aura of Righteousness.

Stygian Achilles: As a price for channeling so much power the Defender recieves Cosmic Backlash. Starting at 2nd level The Cosmic Defender takes twice as much damage from Negative energy.

Psyke Warp: Starting at 2nd level whenever the Cosmic Defender fails a Will save there is a 50% chance of the contracting a form of Insanity without a save against it. He can only have 1 form of Insanity at a time and it lasts for 1d4 days with only a Wish spell being able to cure it it prematurely. If he continues to fail his saves there is a 50% percent chance of increasing the DC for the Insanity by 2 and increasing the duration of the insanity by 1 day. If the Divine Defender fails more than 5 times in a day he passes out for 1d6 hours.

Control the Wheel: A Cosmic Defender uses the Fate Varient Channeling for his Positive Energy Channeling.

Magia Concentretus: A Cosmic Defender gains one more spell per day for each spell level than a normal Paladin.

too lazy for pregression chart

Qadira

One thing that confuses me on the Cosmic Defender is that it's a Paladin/Oracle with a strong Ref save. From where? It should be strong Fort/Will since a paladin has both and an oracle has will.

Silver Crusade

oops, sorry, that was a mistake. Gonna edit now.


What about Archetypes that can be used my more than one single class, such as a fighter or rogue? Why can there not be a rogue who is a master of his sneak attack weapon, or even of one of his rogue abilities?

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Quote:
What about Archetypes that can be used my more than one single class, such as a fighter or rogue? Why can there not be a rogue who is a master of his sneak attack weapon, or even of one of his rogue abilities?

I'm not sure I know what you mean. Elaborate?


Flak wrote:
Quote:
What about Archetypes that can be used my more than one single class, such as a fighter or rogue? Why can there not be a rogue who is a master of his sneak attack weapon, or even of one of his rogue abilities?
I'm not sure I know what you mean. Elaborate?

Yeah, I tend to speak Gibberish a lot.. :)

I guess what I'm trying to say is would it be possible to create one archetype that could be used on more than one class, but not a multi-classed character. Say, a single class fighter or a single class ranger could use the same archetype, because it seems now most archetypes are class specific.

Does that help?


Then they aren't MultiClass Archetypes...which is what we're about. Those oare just Archetypes, like what you find in the APG, UM, or UC. The whole point of this thread (and the last two we posted) is to create multiclass archetypes that can replace the usual Pathfinder version of multiclassing.

It wouldn't be necessarily hard to do, but we don't really do single class archetypes. That said, some of us in MCP MIGHT be game doing that on the side, but I'm not going to speak for anyone on that. Thaks for checking us out!

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Oh! No that's not even what you find in the APG, UM, or UC. That's like the "Genius Archetypes" that Super Genius Games did before the APG came out. So yeah they exist. But not really our project.


Honestly, if I weren't busy on the MCA side of things, I'd -totally- do that.

But as is I've got a campaign to run, work, this, Mabi, and the insanity of life to deal with. :<

Though- if I were to do that, I'd focus on areas where it made sense. Like Sneak Attack could replace non-specific bonus feats; Fighter, Ranger's Combat Style (but not Endurance, for example).

If you're going for that, Cal, that'd be my advice on where to start. Good luck to ya >:3


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have suggested the one-archetype-as-espoused-by-many-classes before. I'm not sure it would be all that difficult to do, just needs a bit of combing through the abilities and trying to match similar swaps at the same levels... Ok, maybe a bit difficult with some classes. At any rate, I'm finding it hard enough staying on track with the thread, let alone more concepts!

@Quintin: nice edit on Consecrated Acolyte. Though I don't see a Witch-esque name in the title!?!? Consecrated seems still cleric-y...
*I like Pup Familiar.
*I'm unsure of balance re: Medium armor and no ASF against a hex at 10th level... Raider/Flak/Elghinn/cartmanbeck/Bardess? Any thoughts?

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