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MultiClass Archetypes III: The Return of the MCA


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

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Trogdar wrote:

oh wait, Sunstrike just adds effects to bombs. never mind

Yeah, there's a bunch of info there. The abilities/effects aren't stacking (except using the channel positive energy to replace the normal bomb damage with positive energy damage).

1) At 1st gains the Sunstrike ability 1/day per level.
2) At 2nd gains phosphorous bombs 1/day per level + Cha modifier.
3) At 5th gains Divine Bond: Allows him to combine his bombs with his Sunstrike ability to create new effects.
a) At 5th create bombs with the sunstrike ability (essentially creating enchanted bombs similar to the weapon bond) that deals normal bomb damage. Costs 1 sunstrike use.
b) At 8th create positive energy bombs + sunstrike (replaces bomb damage). Costs 2 sunstrike uses.
c) At 11th and 14th create new light effect bombs (only the listed effect, no bomb damage). costs 2 or 3 sunstrike uses.
d) At 17th create a "flame strike" bomb (10-ft radius) but a searing sunlight effect (replaces normal bomb damage). Costs 4 sunstrike uses.

You can choose the effect according to your situation and number of remaining Sunstrike uses. So you could use 1 use of Sunstrike to make a Sunstrike bomb. OR you could use 2 uses to create a Sunstrike bomb that deals positive energy damage instead of bomb damage. OR you could use 2 or 3 uses to create one of the listed light effects with bombs instead of bomb or Sunstrike damage. OR use 4 uses to create the "Flame Strike" bomb effect, which is the spell it's based on.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Initial impression is that the sacred illuminary is awesome. The horrible portmanteau/pun is great too! My kind of thing. More detailed response to come.


Bardess wrote:

I like very much your latest idea! I'll take some time to read it thoroughly.

And if you give me your OK, here's the Gnostic Philosopher.

** spoiler omitted **...

I like this one, Bardess. I'm wondering if adding a number of witch spells at each level to his cleric list equal to his Int modifier is too much?

Flak, what do you think? I thinking more of adding the cantrips to orisons as is (= Int modifier) then adding either 1 or 2 witch spells per level to his cleric list.

Like this:

Familiar (Ex): At 1st level, a gnostic philosopher gains the witch’s familiar ability and must commune with his familiar each day to prepare his witch spells. The gnostic philosopher selects a number of 0-level witch spells equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1), plus a number of 1st-level witch spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to store in his familiar. At each new gnostic philosopher level, he adds one new witch spell of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on her new gnostic philosopher level) to his familiar. If the familiar is lost or dies, the gnostic philosopher can no longer cast witch spells until he replaces it (see Familiars in the Core Rulebook). The new familiar knows all the witch spells known by the previous familiar. This ability replaces channel energy 1d6.


Flak wrote:
Initial impression is that the sacred illuminary is awesome. The horrible portmanteau/pun is great too! My kind of thing. More detailed response to come.

Yay! Looking forward to it. Don't forget to check your email too. There's some MCAs awaiting critiques.


@Bardess: I cleaned up your Gnostic Philosopher and added a few things here and there.

GNOSTIC PHILOSOPHER:

While heresies emerge within the various religions in several different forms, most orders have a history of exacting punishment upon those who become perverted or those bold souls who neither accept nor live according to the dictates of their order’s dogma. Despite this, some heretics boldly proclaim their adversity and wage war against the ecclesiastical hierarchy, while others strictly adhere to their order’s teachings, posing as pious practitioners of the faith in an attempt to hide their sacrilegious duplicity from the purges of the inquisitors. Although the gnostic philosopher is not necessarily opposed to the leaders of his faith, he does believe he has found a different method for honoring his god–one that deals with abstract mysteries, binding pacts, and secret initiation ceremonies that claim to reveal a less–known aspect of the divine. He continues to receive spells from his god, while simultaneously gaining access to more mysterious and eldritch abilities, all of which he claims, stems from the same divine source. More often than not, whether right or wrong, a gnostic philosopher may seek to embody a good aspect of an evil god (or vice versa), thus, striving to redeem the same corrupt principle he worships. While there could be some truth in his unorthodox beliefs, he may have been ensorcelled by some deceptive enemy of his deity. In the end, a gnostic philosopher can either bring a true renewal to a religious sect, or be painfully executed once his heresy is exposed to his superiors.

Primary Class: Cleric.

Secondary Class: Witch.

Alignment: Any (see Sanctioned Heresy below).

Hit Dice: d8.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The gnostic philosopher may select three witch skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cleric class skills. The gnostic philosopher gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The gnostic philosopher is proficient with all simple weapons and the favored weapon of his deity. He is also proficient with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). A gnostic philosopher can cast witch spells while wearing light armor and using a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance, due to his intense training to hide his true nature to his church. A gnostic philosopher wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a chance of arcane spell failure when casting witch spells if the spell in question has a somatic component.

Spellcasting: A gnostic philosopher casts both divine spells drawn from the cleric spell list, and adds a number of spells from the witch spell list to that list (see the Familiar entry below). He casts both his cleric and witch spells using the spell slots shown on Table: Gnostic Philosopher. A gnostic philosopher otherwise learns, prepares and casts spells as a cleric equal to his gnostic philosopher level. He also receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.

Domain: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the gnostic philosopher gains access only to a single domain granted by his deity. Due to his unorthodox philosophy, a gnostic philosopher may select any domain, including the new Witchcraft domain, even if it is not granted by his deity.

Familiar (Ex): At 1st level, a gnostic philosopher gains the witch’s familiar ability and must commune with his familiar each day to prepare his witch spells. The gnostic philosopher selects a number of 0-level witch spells equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1), plus a number of 1st-level witch spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to store in his familiar. At each new gnostic philosopher level, he adds one new witch spell of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on her new gnostic philosopher level) to his familiar. If the familiar is lost or dies, the gnostic philosopher can no longer cast witch spells until he replaces it (see Familiars in the Core Rulebook). The new familiar knows all the witch spells known by the previous familiar. This ability replaces channel energy 1d6.

Hex: At 1st level, a gnostic philosopher gains the witch’s hex ability, and may choose a hex at 1st level, and again at 6th level and every six levels thereafter. At 12th level, whenever he could select a hex, he can choose a major hex instead. At 18th level, whenever a gnostic philosopher could select a hex, he can choose a grand hex instead. This ability and patron replace the cleric’s second domain.

Patron: At 1st level, a gnostic philosopher may select a patron from those listed in the witch class description. He adds his patron spells to his list of domain spells and casts them in his domain spell slots.

Sanctioned Heresy: Although a cleric is usually restricted in his choice of alignment by that of his god, a gnostic philosopher’s unorthodox view of faith and religion allows him to possess a very different alignment from his deity. Therefore, an evil gnostic philosopher could become a worshipper of a good deity, or one of good alignment a worshipper of an evil deity, all without fear of reprisal from his deity. A gnostic philosopher must have one aspect of his alignment in complete harmony the alignment of his deity along one axis (either the good-evil or law-chaos axis), while the other aspect may be in complete opposition to the alignment of his deity on the other. For example, a gnostic philosopher that worships a lawful good deity could have a lawful good, lawful neutral, lawful evil, neutral good, or chaotic good alignment. Although having an aspect of one’s alignment diametrically opposed to his god’s is permitted, such a practitioner of the faith could soon attract the wrath of his church once discovered.

Spontaneous Casting: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the gnostic philosopher can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison, cantrip, domain spell, or patron spell in order to cast any domain or patron spell of the same spell level or lower.

Channel Energy (Su): This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the gnostic philosopher functions as a cleric equal to his gnostic philosopher level –2.

Domains: The following domains complement the gnostic philosopher multiclass archetype: Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Madness, and Rune.

Patrons: The following patrons complement the gnostic philosopher multiclass archetype: Deception, Enchantment, Insanity, Occult, Portents, Trickery, and Wisdom.

NEW SUBDOMAIN
The following new subdomain may be selected by anyone with the domain class feature, and complements the gnostic philosopher multiclass archetype.

Witchcraft Subdomain
Associated domain: Magic.
Replacement Power: The following granted power replaces the dispelling touch power of the Magic domain.
Esoteric Knowledge (Su): At 8th level, you can choose one witch hex. At 14th and again at 20th level, you can choose an additional witch hex (but not a major hex or grand hex). You can use these hexes as a witch equal to 1/2 your cleric level. If you already have hex as a class feature, these hexes function as a witch equal to your cleric level.
Replacement Domain Spells: 2nd–owl’s wisdom, 3rd–bestow curse, 6th–major curse.

Table: Gnostic Philosopher
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th

1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Aura, domain, familiar, hex, orisons, 3 1+1 — — — — — — — —
patron, sanctioned heresy,
spontaneous casting
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 4 2+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Channel energy 1d6 4 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Channel energy 2d6 4 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Hex 4 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Channel energy 3d6 4 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 4 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Channel energy 4d6 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Channel energy 5d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Hex, major hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Channel energy 6d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Channel energy 7d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Channel energy 8d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Hex, grand hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Channel energy 9d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1


@Elghinn
As for Esoteric Knowledge, I modeled it on the Rage subdomain's Rage power, so I'd leave 8-12-16th level for gaining hexes, stacking witch levels for purposes of determinating the effective level of use.
If adding one witch spell for level is enough for you, okay. About the alignment and choice of domains, I don't know...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Gnostic Philosopher: I totally do not get this guy at all:

*Why "Philosopher"?

*And if a philosophic type, why light armor, and why light armor casting? It makes sense with cleric as Primary, but the flavor is spurious...intense training to hide (from, not to) his church? I think this needs rethinking of the flavor and some consideration re: spellcasting. If it's divine, then no problem, and doesn't need to mention the light armor casting. If arcane, then we have a magus-esque situation which the flavor doesn't fit for me. The MCA seems to specify divine witch spells.

*Sanctioned Heresy: i really don't get this - having a radically different alignment from one's deity doesn't seem tenable - at some point, the "philosophic" divide between the "idea" of the deity and it's actual tenets becomes too great and you're no longer a worshipper, but an enthusiast or post-modernly interested spectator of an individual concept or something. Still, if you guys keep it, maybe let Sanctioned Heresy allow for spellcasting without any alignment restrictions. Look at the Witchfinder's Versatile Casting on the wiki:

Witchfinder

Apart from that I like the simplicity of the approach, but I don't really get the flavor. I liked the Witchcraft subdomain.


@OSW
The name "Gnostic Philosopher" was chosen thinking to the real gnostic heretics of the first centuries AD. Many ancient and medieval heresies were real philosophic or theologic attempts of renewal into the Christian faith- and yet, so many of these philosophers were burned on the stake as witches. I could as well call the archetype "Heretic Theologist" if you don't like the name, but I rather like this name...
Also, I imagined that the GP's cleric spells are divine, but his witch spells are arcane. This accounts for the contrast between the official tenets of his church and his new view or religion.
As for Sanctioned Heresy- my idea was to have a cleric without alignment restrictions, actually, somewhat like an oracle. In SGG's Guide to the Godling Ascendant, the Godling Domain allows something similar, and it seemed appropriate. But Elghinn's idea is not unreasonable too...
I also liked the idea of leaving one domain granted by the deity, and replace the other domain with patron/hexes... this would make the GP similar to the Separatist (which I don't like much).
Hope I could explain myself well... ^-^


This MCA feels a bit melancholy to me. Its hard to look back at the gnostics and not feel some sadness. I am not sure its fair to say that gnostics didn't follow the alignment of there deity, it was more like they didn't accept the judgment of the clergy. I suppose mechanically there would be no analog though, just makes the gnostics seem like they were super radicals and not just people who didn't believe in the patriarchal dominance of the established clergy.

Anyhow, segway, my apologies.

Is there a way to make the gnostic aligned with there god with less restriction on spell lists or something? Or maybe aligned on the good evil axis while never being law? I don't know how you would set them up to be anti establishment though.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Heretical Theologist makes a lot more sense. We don't want to refer to Gnosticism (it's not setting appropriate) and "gnostic" as a generic adjective just means "knowledge-oriented," which is more a wizard or cloistered cleric or bard thing than a witch/cleric/heresy thing.


Any thoughts/plans for a fighter/paladin say Holy Swordsman?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Bardess - thanks for the background. I do prefer Heretic here as it carries less real-world cultural baggage, as Flak says.

If this MCA [i}does[/i] use divine AND arcane spells then there is a slight problem for me with the "light armor casting" stuff - nothing in the real world inspiration or the MCA as written makes me feel the light-armor flavor. If you were to rewrite the MCA to be a bit more militant, then sure - as of now I'm getting furtive guys in rags out n the desert communing with forbidden patrons of stuff their churches wouldn't like, not uber-trained faith-sneaks who have some kind of culture of secretive armor-training.... Also - we don't have too many MCAs with divine and arcane spell capabilities, unless I'm very much mistaken. It could definitely work, and I'm not against it - it just becomes complicated with regard to MAD (multiple ability dependance?), bonus spells based on which ability etc ....What do you think?

By the way - you are explaining yourself very well. And sorry I haven't moved much on the Book of Peace stuff - it's on my to-do list... '>'

@The Ghost Knight: Welcome! :) Sounds good, got any ideas? Fighters are just so boring, the trades and swaps are actually kinda difficult.... Also, "swordsman" is very specific in a world of hurtyy-bashy-chainy-missiley-bludgeony-piercing weapons....Having said that, Elghinn is the resident Paladin fanboy*, he might have one in the works.

*closely followed by Bardess (fangrrrl)...


@ Everyone: Re Gnostic Philosopher -

I'm trying to work on this thing to find the right balance and flavor for the MCA, and try to keep it in the realm of what Bardess is trying to have it be. I think I have a good grasp on it, but I'll have to post it tomorrow.

As to the name, I agree. I think you are looking for Heretical Theologian, not Theologist. :D (At least, I like it better than Theologist, since that isn't a word.) I'll get back to you.

@ Ghost Knight: Welcome. Ftr/Pal or Pal/Ftr can be tricky. Perhaps I'll give it a try after we get my Sacred Illuminary and the Heretical Theologian out of the the way. I can already tell that the name for it is gonna be a bigger to come up with, let alone the abilities. If you have any suggestions as to the possible abilities, or path in which you pictured this MCA going, that would be appreciated. that'll at least give me a frame work to work off of. And if you haven't checked our Wiki (see opening post of this thread) go check it out.


All in all, here's something that should go for all of us...

Heretic Theologian:

While heresies emerge within the various religions in several different forms, most orders have a history of exacting punishment upon those who become perverted or those bold souls who neither accept nor live according to the dictates of their order’s dogma. Despite this, some heretics boldly proclaim their adversity and wage war against the ecclesiastical hierarchy, while others strictly adhere to their order’s teachings, posing as pious practitioners of the faith in an attempt to hide their sacrilegious duplicity from the purges of the inquisitors. Although the heretic theologian is not necessarily opposed to the leaders of his faith, he does believe he has found a different method for honoring his god–one that deals with abstract mysteries, binding pacts, and secret initiation ceremonies that claim to reveal a less–known aspect of the divine. He continues to receive spells from his god, while simultaneously gaining access to more mysterious and eldritch abilities, all of which he claims, stems from the same divine source. More often than not, whether right or wrong, an heretic theologian may seek to embody a good aspect of an evil god (or vice versa), thus, striving to redeem the same corrupt principle he worships. While there could be some truth in his unorthodox beliefs, he may have been ensorcelled by some deceptive enemy of his deity. In the end, an heretic theologian can either bring a true renewal to a religious sect, or be painfully executed once his heresy is exposed to his superiors.

Primary Class: Cleric.

Secondary Class: Witch.

Alignment: Any (see Sanctioned Heresy below).

Hit Dice: d8.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The heretic theologian may select three witch skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cleric class skills. The heretic theologian gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The heretic theologian is proficient with all simple weapons and the favored weapon of his deity. He is also proficient with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). An heretic theologian wearing an armor or wielding a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure when casting witch spells or patron spells if the spell in question has a somatic component.

Spellcasting: An heretic theologian casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell list, and adds a number of arcane spells from the witch spell list to that list (see the Familiar entry below). He casts both his cleric and witch spells using the spell slots shown on Table: Heretic Theologian. An heretic theologian otherwise learns, prepares and casts spells as a cleric equal to his heretic theologian level. He also receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.

Domain: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the heretic theologian gains access only to a single domain granted by his deity. Furthermore, an heretic theologian may select the new Witchcraft subdomain, even if it is not granted by his deity.

Familiar (Ex): At 1st level, an heretic theologian gains the witch’s familiar ability and must commune with his familiar each day to prepare his witch spells. The heretic theologian selects a number of 0-level witch spells equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1), plus a number of 1st-level witch spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to store in his familiar. At each new heretic theologian level, he adds one new witch spell of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new heretic theologian level) to his familiar. If the familiar is lost or dies, the gnostic philosopher can no longer cast witch spells until he replaces it (see Familiars in the Core Rulebook). The new familiar knows all the witch spells known by the previous familiar. This ability replaces channel energy 1d6.

Hex: At 1st level, a gnostic philosopher gains the witch’s hex ability, and may choose a hex at 1st level, and again at 6th level and every six levels thereafter. At 12th level, whenever he could select a hex, he can choose a major hex instead. At 18th level, whenever a gnostic philosopher could select a hex, he can choose a grand hex instead. This ability and patron replace the cleric’s second domain.

Patron: At 1st level, a gnostic philosopher may select a patron from those listed in the witch class description. He adds his patron spells to his list of domain spells and casts them in his domain spell slots.

Sanctioned Heresy: Although a cleric is usually restricted in his choice of alignment by that of his god, an heretic theologian’s unorthodox view of faith and religion allows him to possess a very different alignment from his deity. Therefore, an evil heretic theologian could become a worshipper of a good deity, or one of good alignment a worshipper of an evil deity, all without fear of reprisal from his deity. An heretic theologian must not abide to any restrictions on his alignment. Although having an alignment diametrically opposed to his god’s is permitted (either on the law/chaos or good/evil axis), such a practitioner of the faith could soon attract the wrath of his church once discovered.

Spontaneous Casting: This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the heretic theologian can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison, cantrip, domain spell, or patron spell in order to cast any domain or patron spell of the same spell level or lower.

Channel Energy (Su): This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the heretic theologian functions as a cleric equal to his heretic theologian level –2.

Domains: The following domains complement the heretic theologian multiclass archetype: Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Madness, and Rune.

Patrons: The following patrons complement the heretic theologian multiclass archetype: Deception, Enchantment, Insanity, Occult, Portents, Trickery, and Wisdom.

NEW SUBDOMAIN
The following new subdomain may be selected by anyone with the domain class feature, and complements the heretic theologian multiclass archetype.

Witchcraft Subdomain
Associated domain: Magic.
Replacement Power: The following granted power replaces the dispelling touch power of the Magic domain.
Esoteric Knowledge (Su): At 8th level, you can choose one witch hex. At 12th and 16th level, you can select one other hex (but not a major hex or grand hex). Your effective witch level is equal to 1/2 your cleric level. If you have levels in witch, these levels stack with your effective witch level for the purposes of determining your hex use.
Replacement Domain Spells: 2nd– owl’s wisdom, 3rd– bestow curse, 6th– major curse.

Table: Heretic Theologian
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th

1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Aura, domain, familiar, hex, orisons, 3 1+1 — — — — — — — —
patron, sanctioned heresy,
spontaneous casting
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 4 2+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Channel energy 1d6 4 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Channel energy 2d6 4 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Hex 4 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Channel energy 3d6 4 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 4 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Channel energy 4d6 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Channel energy 5d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Hex, major hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Channel energy 6d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Channel energy 7d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Channel energy 8d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Hex, grand hex 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Channel energy 9d6 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Bardess - getting better and clearer. Can you post a trade/swap breakdown? I'm curious about the diminished channeling.


Oh, it was very simple...

Familiar/Diminished Channeling
Patron+Hexes/1 Domain
Spontaneous Casting- modified but not replaced

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

EL—Theologist is totally a word, and sounds better in this case IMHO. But whatevs. :P


Huh. Seems Flak's right.
Theologizer has a certain appeal, too.


I vote for theolotron. He's a size gargantuan gestalt who doesn't take crap from no deity!


Word didn't like "theologist", so I just assumed it wasn't a word. Theologizer sounds too much eulogizer. I still like Theologian. :P WE'll let Bardess decide between Theologist and Theologian.

RE: Heretic/Heretical Theologian (need to decide on Heretic or Heretical too):

I think we should go with this.

It rewrote the flaver blurp a bit:

While heresies emerge within the various religions in several different forms, most orders have a history of exacting punishment upon those who become perverted or those bold souls who neither accept nor live according to the dictates of their order’s dogma. Despite this, some heretics boldly proclaim their heretical views in open opposition towards the ecclesiastical hierarchy of their church, while others strictly adhere to their order’s teachings, posing as pious practitioners of the faith in an attempt to influence the masses, and guide them towards the new light and understand they have received. Although the heretical theologian is not necessarily opposed to the leaders or doctrines of his faith, he does believe he has found a different path to honoring his god–one that deals with abstract mysteries, binding pacts, and secret initiations meant to reveal greater understanding of the divine being they claim to worship. The heretical theologian continues to receive spells from his god, while simultaneously gaining access to more mysterious and eldritch abilities, all of which stem from the same divine source. While genuine seekers of divine truth view this as a sign that the heretical theologian has found a new path towards greater enlightenment, he is often viewed as confused and misguided by his superiors as pertaining to the truths and doctrines sanctioned by his order.

Changed the following to clarify.

Spellcasting: A heretical theologian casts both divine spells drawn from the cleric spell list, and gains additional spells from the witch spell list, as described in the Familiar entry below. A heretical theologian can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, but uses his daily allotment of spells to cast both his cleric and witch spells. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Heretical Theologian. He also receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.

Changed to swap

Familiar (Ex): As written, just swaps for spontaneous spellcasting.

Moved Hex to 2nd level, and again at 6th level and every six levels thereafter.

I also changed Sanctioned heresy, and have it replacing 1d6 and 5d6 of channel energy, instead of just 1d6.

Sanctioned Heresy: At 1st level, a heretical theologian can cast spells that oppose his moral or ethical beliefs without reprisal from his deity. Once per day, a heretical theologian may cast a cleric or witch spell that opposes his alignment or that of his deity (see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful spells). At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the heretical theologian can cast such spells an additional time per day, up to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level. This ability replaces channel energy 1d6 and 5d6.

Channel Energy (Su): This is exactly like the cleric ability of the same name, except that the heretical theologian channels energy up to a maximum of 8d6, as indicated on Table: Heretical Theologian.

What does everyone think between what Bardess posted and I just posted. What do you think best fits with the concept and flavor of the MCA.


The Ghost Knight wrote:
Any thoughts/plans for a fighter/paladin...

@Flak: Any thoughts on what direction to go with this? I'm thinking Holy Warrior or Holy Crusader...

What about abilities? Wondering about going good alignment or have it an "any" alignment MCA.

For a any good MCA, I have Aura (free), Smite (chaos,evil, good, or law) replaces Armor Training/Mastery, Divine bond (weapon or armor) replaces Weapon Training/Mastery, Heaven's Blessing (save bonus X/day, +1 to +5) replaces Bravery, then a few other abilities replacing bonus feats here and there.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Heretic Theologist (my preference for name)

I like what you've done Elghinn - making all the spells divine makes more sense to me, othereise he's a dabbler in the arcane so it's not "different spells - same divine source - new path to god" but "different spells - different source - burn me -I'm - a - witch".

Really it's up to Bardess - if she likes the changes we can move forward with critiques...

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Holy warrior describes paladin. We need something archetypically different from "holy warrior" if we're going to do any justice to a fighterdin/palater. I know I'm being singularly unhelpful right now (you're probably thinking "different HOW") but eh. Do you want to put me on the job and I can work on it? I know paladins are kind of 'your thing' ...?


Flak wrote:
Holy warrior describes paladin. We need something archetypically different from "holy warrior" if we're going to do any justice to a fighterdin/palater. I know I'm being singularly unhelpful right now (you're probably thinking "different HOW") but eh. Do you want to put me on the job and I can work on it? I know paladins are kind of 'your thing' ...?

Sure, have a go with a Ftr/Pal. Perhaps a Battle Champion, or a name with War or Battle, in it it. I really hate that there is such a limited selection of words we can use for some of these class combos. I'd focus a lot on battle related stuff, may be like the "Stances" seen in the 3.5E Tome of Battle powered by some divine source?

I think I'll keep what I'm doing and make it a Pal/Ftr MCA instead of a Ftr/Pal, with more paladiny stuff.


cool


Do you want it to be offensive or defensive? I would probably go with an offensive focus and make the class focus on a bonded weapon with training.... maybe expand on the potential uses of the ability.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Cool I'm on it. It'll happen =)


I would go with something like zealous immortal (defensive), or divine weapon (offensive).... perhaps righteous immortal would work as well, give him dr/- progression and bonded armor, that'd be neat.


Vero wrote:
I was wondering about the bear animal companion, the other two can become large while the bear becomes medium. Any thoughts bout making the bear large?

We're gonna go with the Animal Companion rules for this one. So, Medium Bear at 4th. They have more HD normally than the other anaimals, so they start them small to start them off at the proper baseline with other animals.

Any other comments on the APex Warrior? Flak? OSW? Cartmanbeck? Raider?


Flak wrote:
Initial impression is that the sacred illuminary is awesome. The horrible portmanteau/pun is great too! My kind of thing. More detailed response to come.

I know there are a bunch of MCAs on the thread, just waiting for your "detailed response", my friend. Then maybe we can get one of these out of the way.


Just putting the posts for the MCAs we are currently reviewing below. I'd like to have these worked out and completed BEFORE any new ones get posted. Thankyou.

APEX WARRIOR
OSW's APEX WARRIOR

WAILING BLADE
Trogdar's WAILING BLADE
Elghinn's tweaks on WAILING BLADE

SACRED ILLUMINARY
Elghinn's SACRED ILLUMINARY

HERATIC THEOLOGIST
Bardess' HERETIC THEOLOGIST
Elghinn's tweaks on HERETIC THEOLOGIST


The only thing I that I think needs fixing with the wailing blade is the wording around the harmonic weapon and its mass version. Both of these effects are applied to performances, so the wording should probably not suggest that they are performances in there own right. Its just something that would leave it open to confusion.

I really enjoy reading the apex warrior, nothing really jumps out at me in terms of it being unbalanced. That said, there's a lot there, so I could have missed something. All it takes is vague wording somewhere and you've got an issue ;)

Nothing broken is standing out for the Illuminary. If anything, it feels a touch underpowered, very specific weapon set that functions really well against a group of enemies but not great against everything else. I think it'll shine in specific campaigns.

The theologist really only has balance issues depending on what you add to there spell list. The rest has already been hammered out fairly well.


I am kind of wondering if the wailing blade should have some sort of fighter feat access. Not on level, but something, I guess I'll check the core to see where feats start getting gated.


hmmm, probably wont work, class level gates are pretty high for fighter feats. unless it was something like, has access to specialization and greater specialization when they become available to fighters or something. Only it would have to be the bonded weapon.... or something, kinda reaching.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Wailing Blade
There's a typo somewhere in there... "This bonus also applies to the wailing blades Combat Maneuver Defense" — should be "blade's" I believe.

Diminished casting is important, this is a powerful MCA. I like it. Tentative +1.

Apex Warrior

Quote:
Species Affinity (Ex): At 1st level, an apex warrior must either Canine (dogs, hyenas, wolves), Feline (lions, panthers, tigers), or Ursine (black bears, grizzly bears) as his species affinity (see Species Affinities below). Once chosen, it cannot be changed. He gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Handle Animal and wild empathy checks with animals of his species affinity, and he can communicate with them as if using a continual speak with animals spell-like ability, but this ability is non-magical.

The apex warrior probably "must select either.."

Also, nonmagical speak with animals? Out of curiosity, how does that work? I would change species affinity to (Ex/Sp) and leave off that nonmagic clause.

For the bond, why can't the feline affinity warriors select both large and small cats?

My main criticism of the apex warrior is that it's a lot. Too much maybe. (Just in terms of content.) That's also an awesome thing, really, so it's not a problem. One question though. What about the MCA is "fighter" ?

===
I'll comment on the others soon. I'm trying my best to steal time for this away from my other endeavors (like work). ^^


Flak wrote:

Wailing Blade

There's a typo somewhere in there... "This bonus also applies to the wailing blades Combat Maneuver Defense" — should be "blade's" I believe.

Fixed that!

Flak wrote:
Diminished casting is important, this is a powerful MCA. I like it. Tentative +1.

+1

Flak wrote:

Apex Warrior

Species Affinity (Ex): At 1st level, an apex warrior must either Canine (dogs, hyenas, wolves), Feline (lions, panthers, tigers), or Ursine (black bears, grizzly bears) as his species affinity (see Species Affinities below). Once chosen, it cannot be changed. He gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Handle Animal and wild empathy checks with animals of his species affinity, and he can communicate with them as if using a continual speak with animals spell-like ability, but this ability is non-magical.

The apex warrior probably "must select either.."

Fixed!

Flak wrote:
Also, nonmagical speak with animals? Out of curiosity, how does that work? I would change species affinity to (Ex/Sp) and leave off that nonmagic clause.

I think it was actually from another archetype, but we can go with that.

Flak wrote:
For the bond, why can't the feline affinity warriors select both large and small cats?

Changed!

Hunter’s Bond (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that an apex warrior must choose the animal companion bond. He must select a bear (ursine affinity), a cheetah, leopard, lion or tiger (feline affinity), or a dog, hyena, or wolf (canine affinity) as his animal companion, according to his species affinity.

Flak wrote:
My main criticism of the apex warrior is that it's a lot. Too much maybe. (Just in terms of content.) That's also an awesome thing, really, so it's not a problem. One question though. What about the MCA is "fighter" ?

as I said to OSW when he asked the very same question...

"Actually, many of the traits, feats, and powers are combat feats or abilities from other fighter archetypes, or combat races like half-orcs and dwarfs. So, I think this is more "fighter" than you think. It relies a lot on combat and teamwork feats, and combat type powers, which is very fighter-esque. This just happens to focus mostly on combat styles and animal related abilities. No armor or weapon training or bravery. That's fine! Doesn't make it any less a Rgr/Ftr MCA."

This one is essentially a Ranger/Fighter who focuses on combat and tactics related to a specific type of animal, whether canines, felines, or ursines. As the flavor blurps suggests, these guys are raised by or lived among these types of animals, sort of like the Never Cry Wolf movie, or the tale of Romulus and Remus. They've taken on animalistic traits, combat tactics, abilities, and styles.

===

Flak wrote:
I'll comment on the others soon. I'm trying my best to steal time for this away from my other endeavors (like work). ^^

Yay!


Trogdar wrote:
The only thing I that I think needs fixing with the wailing blade is the wording around the harmonic weapon and its mass version. Both of these effects are applied to performances, so the wording should probably not suggest that they are performances in there own right. Its just something that would leave it open to confusion.

yeah, never realized they WEREN'T performances. Now that I read them again, they aren't. How's this?

Harmonic Weapon (Su): At 4th level, whenever the wailing blade uses a performance, his bonded weapon vibrates and hums with harmonic resonance. If the wailing blade makes a successful attack while a performance is in effect, he deals an additional 1d6 points of sonic damage. At 7th level, and every three levels thereafter, this sonic damage increases one dice category (1d6 at 7th, 1d8 at 10th, 1d10 at 13th, 2d6 at 16th, and 2d8 at 19th). This performance replaces suggestion.

Mass Harmonics (Su): At 16th level, a wailing blade can grant his harmonic weapon ability to all allies within 10 feet of him, as a swift action. Allies deal an additional 1d10 points of sonic damage if they make a successful attack with their weapons. This effect lasts until the current performance ends. This performance replaces mass suggestion.

Trogdar wrote:
I really enjoy reading the apex warrior, nothing really jumps out at me in terms of it being unbalanced. That said, there's a lot there, so I could have missed something. All it takes is vague wording somewhere and you've got an issue ;)

+1

Trogdar wrote:
Nothing broken is standing out for the Illuminary. If anything, it feels a touch underpowered, very specific weapon set that functions really well against a group of enemies but not great against everything else. I think it'll shine in specific campaigns.

Is there anything you think we could do to make it more versatile? More useful against others? More powerful if you feel it's not powerful enough? Perhaps we can have it deal 10dX damage instead of 7dX damage? Or make it so he can choose to either create normal bombs, or phosphorous bombs? Anyone else think there's an issue with these same things?

Trogdar wrote:
The theologist really only has balance issues depending on what you add to there spell list. The rest has already been hammered out fairly well.

There shouldn't be too much of an issue. At 1st level, she adds say 2 1st-level witch spells to her list (that's an Int of 15, and it's a Cleric primary MCA requiring Wisdom), then an additional spell every level therafter. This is a max of 22 extra spells by 20th level. And these are witch spells, not Wizard spells, so many are quite complementary to a cleric. But that's up to a GM to officiate, not us. That said it really shouldn't be a big issue. Plus, if she loses her familar, those are gone until she replaces them.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
The only thing I that I think needs fixing with the wailing blade is the wording around the harmonic weapon and its mass version. Both of these effects are applied to performances, so the wording should probably not suggest that they are performances in there own right. Its just something that would leave it open to confusion.

yeah, never realized they WEREN'T performances. Now that I read them again, they aren't. How's this?

Harmonic Weapon (Su): At 4th level, whenever the wailing blade uses a performance, his bonded weapon vibrates and hums with harmonic resonance. If the wailing blade makes a successful attack while a performance is in effect, he deals an additional 1d6 points of sonic damage. At 7th level, and every three levels thereafter, this sonic damage increases one dice category (1d6 at 7th, 1d8 at 10th, 1d10 at 13th, 2d6 at 16th, and 2d8 at 19th). This effect replaces suggestion.

Mass Harmonics (Su): At 16th level, a wailing blade can grant his harmonic weapon ability to all allies within 10 feet of him, as a swift action. Allies deal an additional 1d10 points of sonic damage if they make a successful attack with their weapons. This effect lasts until the current performance ends. This effect replaces mass suggestion.

Trogdar wrote:
I really enjoy reading the apex warrior, nothing really jumps out at me in terms of it being unbalanced. That said, there's a lot there, so I could have missed something. All it takes is vague wording somewhere and you've got an issue ;)

+1

Trogdar wrote:
Nothing broken is standing out for the Illuminary. If anything, it feels a touch underpowered, very specific weapon set that functions really well against a group of enemies but not great against everything else. I think it'll shine in specific campaigns.
Is there anything you think we could do to make it more versatile? More useful against others? More powerful if you feel it's not...

fixed the last lines in the harmonics blurbs. I'll take another look at the Illuminary.


Yeah... ignore me, I forgot about the whole blinds everybody all the time thing. lol


Flak wrote:

Wailing Blade

There's a typo somewhere in there... "This bonus also applies to the wailing blades Combat Maneuver Defense" — should be "blade's" I believe.

Diminished casting is important, this is a powerful MCA. I like it. Tentative +1.

I totally agree Flak. When I had considered the concept initially, it was really as a means of balancing what I felt was a cornerstone of the bard class. I really wanted to play with the idea of the duelist archetype because I loved the idea, the execution just sucked. The bard is probably the number one skill monkey in the game, and they totally gutted that potential to give it some teeth in combat. The problem with the duelist is they used a performance based 'patch' which actually got worse as you leveled.

With the above changes, I think the class can actually be said to compete as combat support. I would say its slightly better than a martial cleric in combat terms and slightly worse in casting potential. That said, some may disagree.


Trogdar's ASPECT WARRIOR has been passed by the MCP Crew and posted on the Wiki.


cool! My first MCA ;)


So, anything else on the Apex Warrior, Wailing Blade, Sacred Illuminary, or Heretic Theologist?

Go here!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm hqppy with the Apex Warrior, Wailing Blade and Sacred Illuminary as edited here on the thread.
I prefer your treatment of the Heretic Theologist, but as I said before I say we wait to see what Bardess thinks.
You asked above what we thought about your two versions and which one " best fits with the concept and flavor of the MCA."
I'm not totally won over by the flavour (maybe my rampant atheism showing through) and though I do like the arcane/divine "heretic" spell mixing I guess the medium armor "knight of god with witch powers" is a bit jarring, strange though it may be coming from this gonzoid. Long story short - I'm no judge of which treatment captures the concept and flavor! ;)
Bardess?


I pretty obviously like my build more, sorry :p


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No need to apologise Bardess! You and Elghinn can work it out I'm sure.
Here's a thing to ponder: If I return to camp after being beaten up by this guy, I'm not gonna be telling my friends I was trounced by a Philosopher OR a Theologist. This guy wears medium armor. He's a battle cleric. He needs a new name to reflect that...Heretic or Gnostic are fine, but the Philosopher and the Theologian both conjure bookish pale robe wearig types. What do you think? I know names can be deceiving, and one shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but when the cover is chainmail I ready my axe...

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

I'm going to reiterate that "gnostic" is not a word we want to use for this guy.


Yes Flak, we know...it is the Heretic Theologist. Could you help us figure out which way to go with this?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm less worried about "Heretic" or "Gnostic" (I prefer Heretic - makes sense to me anyways) than I am about a battle cleric type called a Theologist or Philosopher. ;)


Harmonic weapon (Su): At 4th level, whenever the wailing blade uses performance, his bonded weapon vibrates and hums with harmonic resonance. Whenever the wailing blade makes a successful attack while making a performance, he deals an additional 1d6 points of sonic damage.
At 7th level, and every three levels thereafter, this sonic damage increases one dice category (1d6 at 7th, 1d8 at 10th, 1d10 at 13th, 2d6 at 16th, and 2d8 at 19th). This performance replaces suggestion.

just caught this in the WB. needs a fix where the sonic damage progression starts. It goes from 1D6 to 1D6 at 7th. Probably need to change the table as well as mass harmonics.

second thing I caught was that bonded weapon training was supernatural, is that as intended?

As to the heretic theologian/ist. I think mechanically I prefer Elghinns interpretation. With regard to the casting of all spells being considered divine at least. As far as the writer up and flavour, I think that's up to whomever 'birthed' the concept in my mind. take it with a grain of salt though, you guys know what your doing.

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