D&D next ... fate or doom ?


4th Edition

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Liberty's Edge

I still play 1e when I can, still play Traveller (the original edition, not the later abominations), and a bunch of old school stuff. But, commercially, those games are irrelevant. The 1e reprints are a nostalgia trap, if you want to play 1e you can DL OSRIC for free. Ditto with the 3.5 reprints (SRD is still free).

Right now, and until 5e is released, Pathfinder is the only "living" edition based on D&D. I.e. it's the only "relevant" game commercially.


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houstonderek wrote:

I still play 1e when I can, still play Traveller (the original edition, not the later abominations), and a bunch of old school stuff. But, commercially, those games are irrelevant. The 1e reprints are a nostalgia trap, if you want to play 1e you can DL OSRIC for free. Ditto with the 3.5 reprints (SRD is still free).

Right now, and until 5e is released, Pathfinder is the only "living" edition based on D&D. I.e. it's the only "relevant" game commercially.

Love original Traveller, managed to have a Naval officer in his 70's once as a starting character.

The Exchange

Relevance, I suspect, is in the eye of the beholder. Relevant to what, and to whom? It's all a bit meaningless as presented, either way.

Liberty's Edge

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The 8th Dwarf wrote:
houstonderek wrote:

I still play 1e when I can, still play Traveller (the original edition, not the later abominations), and a bunch of old school stuff. But, commercially, those games are irrelevant. The 1e reprints are a nostalgia trap, if you want to play 1e you can DL OSRIC for free. Ditto with the 3.5 reprints (SRD is still free).

Right now, and until 5e is released, Pathfinder is the only "living" edition based on D&D. I.e. it's the only "relevant" game commercially.

Love original Traveller, managed to have a Naval officer in his 70's once as a starting character.

Wow, took a risk there, eh? I love any game you can die in character creation.

Shadow Lodge

What he is saying is that 4E is wrapping up, and new material is either starting to end or is no longer going to be printed, as 5E is publically known to be on the way.

Not that people will no longer buy 4E material, or play 4E, but that WotC/Hasboro will not be creatig anythng new for the game (at least soon), just like they are not creatng any new 1st - 3rd Ed material. So purchases will be second hand, from loca stores, and backstock, and the numbers are going to be focusing on 5E sales soon.

Based on past experiences, it would not surprize me at all if very soon 4E is treated lie it never existed and a bad thing, as they pour all their focus into making 5E sound as good as possible, which will mae 4E fans angry, and as it happened to us with 3E, I can relate and I'm sorry for them, even though I do not like 4E.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Bill Dunn wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

It cannot have helped that Ari Marmell, a game designer who was originally an enthusiastic proponent of 4E and who apparently had a law degree, looked over the GSL and declared that he could not support it.

I think you must mean Clark Peterson of Necromancer games. Ari Marmell has been designing stuff for 4e. Clark was one of D&D's biggest cheerleaders and was gung-ho for supporting 4e... until he got the GSL. I wouldn't be surprised if his initial issues with it helped with the push to revise the GSL after its initial formulation, but it was for naught anyway. And yes, Clark is a lawyer (judge now, I think) in his day job.

Thank you for the correction. I got the two of them confused because Clark Peterson was going to publish a 3rd party product that Ari Marmell wrote until he saw the GSL, at which point he let Ari out of their contract so he could take it elsewhere. Since then I have heard a lot about Ari Marmell's work but very little about Clark Peterson's, so I remembered one and forgot the other.

Liberty's Edge

Beckett wrote:

What he is saying is that 4E is wrapping up, and new material is either starting to end or is no longer going to be printed, as 5E is publically known to be on the way.

Not that people will no longer buy 4E material, or play 4E, but that WotC/Hasboro will not be creatig anythng new for the game (at least soon), just like they are not creatng any new 1st - 3rd Ed material. So purchases will be second hand, from loca stores, and backstock, and the numbers are going to be focusing on 5E sales soon.

Based on past experiences, it would not surprize me at all if very soon 4E is treated lie it never existed and a bad thing, as they pour all their focus into making 5E sound as good as possible, which will mae 4E fans angry, and as it happened to us with 3E, I can relate and I'm sorry for them, even though I do not like 4E.

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Like I said, I still play 1e, but it isn't a commercial "player" in the marketplace any more. I don't pretend 1e still has relevance to the majority of gamers these days.

OSRIC is a very niche thing, and it's free to DL. The OSR is more like an old DIY punk outfit than a serious commercial endeavor, the guys writing stuff for it do it for love of the game, not to earn a living.

4e is a dead edition, like 3.5 and everything prior. Maybe someone will try an OGL end run like the OSR folks did and Paizo did to keep putting stuff out.

Shadow Lodge

David knott 242 wrote:
Since then I have heard a lot about Ari Marmell's work but very little about Clark Peterson's, so I remembered one and forgot the other.

Probably because he wasn't really putting anything out until fairly recently, with his new company, Legendary Games. He was decently active on these boards, and served as a judge not just in his day job, but for several RPG Superstar contests here at Paizo.

Liberty's Edge

The 1st Penny Arcade podcast is up to listen to over at WotC's site. I always enjoyed watching them game and listening is just as entertaining for those interested.

Shadow Lodge

I just heard, and I do not frequent WotC anymore so may be old news, that thry are reprinting 3.5 books again. Sounds awesome.


Beckett wrote:
I just heard, and I do not frequent WotC anymore so may be old news, that thry are reprinting 3.5 books again. Sounds awesome.

Sounds expensive! I'm still playing with the 3E hardcovers I bought back in the year 2000.

Lisa, JJ, Sean (not to mention anyone I've missed), I'm sorry, but I was never even willing to pay for the Pathfinder CRB. /blush


Hitdice wrote:
Beckett wrote:
I just heard, and I do not frequent WotC anymore so may be old news, that thry are reprinting 3.5 books again. Sounds awesome.

Sounds expensive! I'm still playing with the 3E hardcovers I bought back in the year 2000.

Lisa, JJ, Sean (not to mention anyone I've missed), I'm sorry, but I was never even willing to pay for the Pathfinder CRB. /blush

Pffft, that's not a reason to blush because I'm sure hundreds of people don't pay for it. I never did nor do I intend to. I get along just fine with the Pathfinder SRD and my 40+ v3.5 books. They do hook us with the adventure paths, which are pretty amazing, but I can't think of a reason to buy "official" homebrew-v3.5


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Because homebrew rules written by professionals are probably better than homebrew rules written by amateurs?

Sovereign Court

Steve Geddes wrote:
Because homebrew rules written by professionals are probably better than homebrew rules written by amateurs?

But when you can get both for free why choose to pay?


You can't get any full color, hardcover, well laid out and edited home brew rules by amateurs. If you want a hardcopy of the professionals' attempt you have to pay for it.

It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it isn't that hard to think of as a reason to buy pathfinder, is it?


Pan wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Because homebrew rules written by professionals are probably better than homebrew rules written by amateurs?
But when you can get both for free why choose to pay?

+1

I have no illusions that Pathfinder rules are better written, more developed, and probably playtested far more for "brokeness" than that of any lay-person. But the thing is, Pathfinder doesn't remove much of the "brokenness" or disparity or crazy combos unlesss you strictly play Pathfinder with no v3.5 creeping it's way in (and even then, it's still there). Yet wasn't that the whole beauty of their compatability? That I could convert or use almost "as-is" from 3E/v3.5 to Pathfinder? And isn't most (well, at least over 60%) of their product for free on their SRD? In addition to people's own 3PP stuff?

The way I look at it is that Paizo provides a pretty decent product that keeps alive most of my older edition material. It's SRD allows me to pretty much play the game I'm already familiar with for free with free content and free 3PP content. So funds that might have gone to them for their main RPG book or the Beastaries or supplemental stuff is then used for 4E, which is great because I can have my cake and eat it too.


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Yes and no. Buying stuff from Paizo, even when it's free, is supporting the company and doing my best to help them succeed, which is what I want. They, in turn, see that I like what they're doing by receiving my money and continue on in that vein.

They provide the free stuff to allow me to play without paying. But it's much better when I do pay.

Besides. I like owning actual books. They make me happy. :)

Shadow Lodge

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When I was deployed, the PDF's where an okay way to keep my material around and availible. I still wuld have much rather having the actual books, but that was much less feasible. Now that I'm back home, I really do not like the PDF material much beyond the price. It's more difficult to read casually, very difficult to find what you need sometimes, and just doesn't feel nearly as relaxing, in my opinion.


Tacticslion wrote:

Yes and no. Buying stuff from Paizo, even when it's free, is supporting the company and doing my best to help them succeed, which is what I want. They, in turn, see that I like what they're doing by receiving my money and continue on in that vein.

They provide the free stuff to allow me to play without paying. But it's much better when I do pay.

Besides. I like owning actual books. They make me happy. :)

I like owning actual books too but I can't fiscally support two separate gaming companies, thus I get what I can for free from Paizo and spend money on 4E products (even 3PP stuff). But the moment Paizo puts out a book that's in close proximity to WotC's Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords, I'll buy that in a heartbeat no questions asked. I did hear they may be coming out with one in the future, so I can hope for the best.

Shadow Lodge

As much as I dislike 4E's style, I actually loved Bo9S too. :)


With a tablet/pad the PDFs are really fine and quite portable. Reading on a smartphone could be a pain, but on bigger screen there isn't much you could want more. They are certainly handy when you are not online, which can be quite often.

Sovereign Court

I dont want to own another hardcover rule book ever again. PDF and internets are so much more convenient. The books I like to buy are adventure and setting books. That is where I give Paizo money. I guess I make out like a bandit because of the SRD. To be honest its very unlikely I would ever buy Ultimate x,y,z or Advanced A,B,C.

Pressure is on for WOTC from customers like me. I didnt take to 4E because the launching product didn't do what I wanted. I hear it got better but I never gave it another chance. I am not the kind of person to wait for his game to come around in future supplements. That was the biggest mistake they made in my opinion. Please note im not saying the game was bad it just wasn't for me. I didn't want to put the effort into making it work when I had a wealth of 3E stuff to keep me going.

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