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Blinded prepared spellcasters


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Note: This is for PFS

I was going to pick up a few scrolls for my 7th level alchemist's formula book as just-in-case measures: remove curse, remove disease, and remove blindness/deafness.

Then I thought about it, and how would my alchemist ever prepare remove blindness/deafness if he were struck blind? Is it possible to encode a spell in brail? Is that something a character could pick up with Linguistics? What if I had another character describe the words in my formula book, and guided the creation of this extract?

Remember, my question is specifically for PFS, so while discussion on what should happen is fine, I would like my question to be answered with as much rules-as-written as possible, even if it would be a disappointing answer.


Mergy wrote:

Note: This is for PFS

I was going to pick up a few scrolls for my 7th level alchemist's formula book as just-in-case measures: remove curse, remove disease, and remove blindness/deafness.

Then I thought about it, and how would my alchemist ever prepare remove blindness/deafness if he were struck blind? Is it possible to encode a spell in brail? Is that something a character could pick up with Linguistics? What if I had another character describe the words in my formula book, and guided the creation of this extract?

Remember, my question is specifically for PFS, so while discussion on what should happen is fine, I would like my question to be answered with as much rules-as-written as possible, even if it would be a disappointing answer.

I doubt that someone else could help you to prepare the extracts. they are of magical nature, not just a formula, otherwise the alchemist could just prepare all the extracts he want, no to mention that other classes could prepare extracts too just by teading the book.

Brail should be ok, mostly because is a nice use of a skill and nothing (to my knwoledge) prohibit it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If it is a PFS question it should be in the PFS forum, not in thr rule forum.

In a home game I would say yes, Braille is a acceptable language: In PFS, I doubt it as you will risk incurring into different rulings between one table and another. To use it you need a official reply from the PFS coordinator. Under linguistic there is a list of common languages. Other languages can be found on specific products. Unless Braille or an equivalent is listed in one of the permitted sourcebooks it don't exist in PFS.


Ah, good ol' scroll of remove blindness. Right up there with potion of remove paralysis. What fun.

Mergy wrote:


Then I thought about it, and how would my alchemist ever prepare remove blindness/deafness if he were struck blind? Is it possible to encode a spell in brail? Is that something a character could pick up with Linguistics? What if I had another character describe the words in my formula book, and guided the creation of this extract?

Being blind does not prevent you from "casting" remove blindness.

You would not be able to cast a scroll of remove blindness when blind. You could, however, cast it on a blinded creature while not blind.

Your extracts do not require you to be not-blind to cast, but preparing them is another story. You cannot prepare your extracts while blind, just as a wizard cannot study his spellbook while blind.

There are no rules in place that would allow someone else to read your formulae to you. Some DMs might allow it in PFS, and some might not. I hope, for your sake, that it never comes up, heh. Logically, one could argue either way. Perhaps no one but you can really understand the notations of your written formulae. Perhaps they're more complex than just written words, with mystical symbols that would have to be described rather than written. Or maybe it really is as easy as "mix eye of newt with powdered dragon wing." That's the kind of flavor thing that has always been left to the players or DM, so there's no hard rule on it. It'd be up to the leniency of your DM, but I hazard a guess that most would say no, since it's against the spirit of the rules a bit.

Good luck. :)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

If it is a PFS question it should be in the PFS forum, not in teh rule foru.

In a home game I would say yes, Braille is a acceptable language: In PFS, I doubt it as you will risk incurring into different rulings between one table and another. To use it you need a official reply from the PFS coordinator. Under linguistic there is a list of common languages. Other languages can be found on specific products. Unless Braille or an equivalent is listed in one of the permitted sourcebooks it don't exist in PFS.

Rules questions always belong in the rules forum. If I put it in PFS it would be moved anyway; I mentioned it was for PFS so all the answers wouldn't be about home games.

In the end I don't think it's worth it going out of my way to grab a scroll of remove blindness/deafness, since the only time I would be casting it would be for other party members. PFS isn't conducive to that kind of self-sacrificing in my opinion.


Mergy wrote:


Rules questions always belong in the rules forum.

Agreed.

Quote:
I mentioned it was for PFS so all the answers wouldn't be about home games.

I wish that wasn't necessary. Peoples' opinions in this forum are generally worth about as much as salt to a mermaid. Most DMs really don't care if player X said that Forum-goer Z's opinion on his ruling is option A.

Quote:
In the end I don't think it's worth it going out of my way to grab a scroll of remove blindness/deafness, since the only time I would be casting it would be for other party members. PFS isn't conducive to that kind of self-sacrificing in my opinion.

Sad but true. PFS is great in many ways, but that is not one of them. :( It would be different if it were hard enough that it would be worth it if you cast that on the fighter but . . . meh.

Remove Deafness wouldn't be a terrible option, though.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It is not a rule question, Mergy, it is specific PFS rule question.

General rule: under linguistic you find a list of languages, you can pick one of those, your GM can add what languages he think are appropriated to the setting.

PFS rule: "these are the allowed sourcebooks, you are limited t what is in then." There is Braille in one of them? I think not, so it is not allowed in PFS unless you get a specific ruling from PFS coordinator superseding the general rule.

So you need a ruling from the PFS coordinator, not a citation from the CRB (unless someone know a allowed sourcebook where Braille is cited as a permitted language, then you only need to bring it with you to show the GM at the table).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

It is not a rule question, Mergy, it is specific PFS rule question.

General rule: under linguistic you find a list of languages, you can pick one of those, your GM can add what languages he think are appropriated to the setting.

PFS rule: "these are the allowed sourcebooks, you are limited t what is in then." There is Braille in one of them? I think not, so it is not allowed in PFS unless you get a specific ruling from PFS coordinator superseding the general rule.

So you need a ruling from the PFS coordinator, not a citation from the CRB.

You really don't need to post in this thread anymore if you don't want to.

I asked a rules question with a PFS slant. That's one of the things this forum is for, and if you'll notice, a lot of rules questions posted in the PFS forums that are not entirely specific to PFS (and mine is not about PFS rules, but about Pathfinder rules) are moved to the rules forum. I was saving the mods some work.

Brogue: It's sad, but it would seem just having the available prestige point to remove blindness would be worth more than knowing the extract for the purposes of curing my own blindness.


Diego Rossi wrote:
It is not a rule question, Mergy, it is specific PFS rule question.

I . . . what? No it's not. Rules are rules. PFS using Pathfinder rules. A Pathfinder Rules question is generally the same as a Pathfinder Society Rules question when it comes to RAW interpretation, not society-specific rules or setting changes.

Quote:

General rule: under linguistic you find a list of languages, you can pick one of those, your GM can add what languages he think are appropriated to the setting.

PFS rule: "these are the allowed sourcebooks, you are limited t what is in then." There is Braille in one of them? I think not, so it is not allowed in PFS unless you get a specific ruling from PFS coordinator superseding the general rule.

So you need a ruling from the PFS coordinator, not a citation from the CRB (unless someone know a allowed sourcebook where Braille is cited as a permitted language, then you only need to bring it with you to show the GM at the table).

He's asking if it exists, not if it's allowed. The point was to see whether the rules that PFS allows (in this case, Pathfinder rules) had anything on Braille, not that he knew there was nothing on Braille and wanted to know if it was OK anyway. His point was that he didn't know and was asking. O.o

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You had your reply by RAW:

Your GM can add whatever language he feel is appropriate to his setting.

"Languages: The languages most commonly spoken by the creature are listed here. For unusual creatures, you can swap out the languages known for other choices as needed. A creature with a higher than normal Intelligence score receives the appropriate number of bonus languages."

AFAIK, the Golarion GMs (i.e. the developers of Goalrion) don't have added a Brailel or equivalent language, so you are out of luck in a Golarion setting.


Now you're just being persnickety. That could be the answer to every single question on here. "The GM could do that if he wants to." I mean, it's true, but it's not helpful, and there's no real reason to get up in arms about it. O.o


Of course, that only matters if spells/extracts are written in some language at all rather than being some sort of magical code.

I'd say if it was just written in common or draconic anyone with that language could just snag your book and read it. but it doesn't work like that.

Unfortunately absent a houserule there isn't anything that would allow anyone to memorize spells or learn extracts for the day while blinded.

However I wouldn't say the scroll is useless. You can, AFAIK, have someone else use the scroll *on you* even if you can't use it yourself. Given the relative unlikelyhood of someone both memorizing it and using it on you, that may be a fairly handy use of it. Just take note of who has UMD (or the relevant class list) before hand so you can pass it to them should the need arise after combat. The same is true for remove deafness too, since I think casting spells while deaf has a pretty hefty spell failure chance associated with it.

-S

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

Of course, that only matters if spells/extracts are written in some language at all rather than being some sort of magical code.

I'd say if it was just written in common or draconic anyone with that language could just snag your book and read it. but it doesn't work like that.

Unfortunately absent a houserule there isn't anything that would allow anyone to memorize spells or learn extracts for the day while blinded.

However I wouldn't say the scroll is useless. You can, AFAIK, have someone else use the scroll *on you* even if you can't use it yourself. Given the relative unlikelyhood of someone both memorizing it and using it on you, that may be a fairly handy use of it. Just take note of who has UMD (or the relevant class list) before hand so you can pass it to them should the need arise after combat. The same is true for remove deafness too, since I think casting spells while deaf has a pretty hefty spell failure chance associated with it.

-S

The point of buying the scroll was just to learn it as an extract, so it would be available more than once. Unfortunately, it would seem that removing blindness is not really that great a thing to have in a formula book.

Actually, what if I said that all of the symbols in my formula book were raised off the page? The blind condition says "checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail."; however, if the check did not rely on sight but could be performed with touch, that might be a loophole that makes it possible to read.

Any thoughts? As long as it's RAW, even if it's slightly cheesy, it has a shot.


hrmm.

I mean, if it were a home game I'd say "eh sure why not?" maybe charge you an extra few pennies for the cost of getting a kind of paper that would hold the shape or whatever..

but you said for PFS.. so I'd probably err on the side of the DM saying no.

Which makes it a nigh worthless extract to learn unless you are going to take the discovery to allow others to use 'em too.. but thats pretty much what it looks like.

I mean, it seems like a minor thing but it is a benefit- and one that the rules don't address anywhere one way or another. Which usually means you can't do it.

-S

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Somewhere in the "We be goblin module" there is a note about the goblin alchemist formulae book: it is written in smells.
AFAIK that is the best you can find in all the different books, and it is very flismy.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Aaaaactually, the beastmorph archetype mutagen gives me access to scent, so that might not be quite so flimsy. It makes sense that my character would scribe a remove blindness extract in a way that it doesn't require eyesight.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What we have:

Goblins of Golarion wrote:
This fear of words can make life difficult for some goblins—particularly alchemists and wizards, who would normally need to keep formulae or spellbooks. In some cases, these somewhat “enlightened” goblins simply do their best to hide the fact that they’re engaged in writing. Of course, if the goblin in question is already a hermit or exile, he doesn’t have to worry. In other cases, though, the alchemist or wizard instead keeps a book of pictures and diagrams to help him record his spells and formulae. These crude and often baffling notations blur the line between diagrams and pictographic language. This method works fine for the goblin in question, but since these pictures and diagrams are difficult to decipher, using them to learn new formulae or spells imparts a –10 penalty on the Spellcraft check made to learn the magic. As a general rule, goblins who learn new spells or formulae from scrolls do so on the sly and then burn the scroll to hide the evidence of their transgression.

What is the problem:

- no rule on how you go about developing a special form of "language " for your formulae or spells.
- no rule about learning one.

So we always return to the same point: the GM has to decide if it work, how it work, what is required to develop you special language. As it give a in game advantage (your recipes/spells are more difficult to decipher) it should have some cost but there is no guideline for adjudicating that in a consistent way when you change GM.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks Diego. I think simply knowing the Goblin language would probably give access to this, along with showing the GM the passage you quoted. I will have to spend another point of Linguistics! :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you think it can work, it is at page 10, top third or right column.
It is repeated in few other position in the book.

I remember that there was a note in "We be goblin" about the alchemist using a book of smells for his formulas, but I can't find the reference in my copy. It is possible it was added as a correction of his character sheet.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I recommend a potion of remove blindness. More expensive, but at least it'll be easy to use when you need it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm looking to save some money, but I suppose that might be better. At least I would be able to use it with alchemical allocation.


You know, I could have sworn there was a description for what a spellbook could be that included unconventional stuff like encoding your book on a long beaded chain or weaving it into a tapestry, that kind of thing.

But now that I look, I can't find anything like that. Must be some vestigial previous version/other game knowledge floating up.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'll check Inner Sea Magic.

Dark Archive

BREW A POTION or make an extract of it. you can use those while blind...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The issue is that even if I have the extract in my formula book, how do I read my formula book to brew the extract?

It's not like I want to use up one of my precious extract slots always having to have remove blindness/deafness prepared.


CRB: Arcane Magical Writings wrote:
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.

I think the part I put in bold would lend credence to the idea of spell casters having something of a universal language, allowing someone to communicate the details of the spell to you with a reasonable amount of success (given a common spoken language). From my perspective, I would allow someone who could decipher the spell in your spellbook to assist you in casting the spell, with some spell failure chance (20% seems reasonable since it's the failure chance for being deaf).


Selgard wrote:

hrmm.

I mean, if it were a home game I'd say "eh sure why not?" maybe charge you an extra few pennies for the cost of getting a kind of paper that would hold the shape or whatever..

but you said for PFS.. so I'd probably err on the side of the DM saying no.

Which makes it a nigh worthless extract to learn unless you are going to take the discovery to allow others to use 'em too.. but thats pretty much what it looks like.

I mean, it seems like a minor thing but it is a benefit- and one that the rules don't address anywhere one way or another. Which usually means you can't do it.

-S

As a master printer, lemme weigh in on the embossed paper issue: as long as the paper is sturdy enough to not fall apart during a 5-10 minute soaking, you can emboss images on it. Requires a plate, or at least some wire forms, and a press. Soak paper, set forms on press, set paper over forms, run the sandwich through the press.

STORING the embossed paper might require a separate "book" -- a box, really -- so that the embossing work doesn't get crushed by the rest of the paper when the book gets shut. I'd probably also double the pages-per-level requirements unless you have a fully-equipped offset type press to work with: embossing is a larger-scale of image than writing.

None of this addresses the issue of a Braille-type language. Which might be hard to come by without inventing it yourself. In a world with 'remove blindness/deafness' in it, there would be little impetus to create a written language for the blind...

Dark Archive

Mergy wrote:

The issue is that even if I have the extract in my formula book, how do I read my formula book to brew the extract?

It's not like I want to use up one of my precious extract slots always having to have remove blindness/deafness prepared.

brew a potion while you arent blind, and hang on to it. a few gp is worth not having to worry


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps Subscriber

Except if this is for PFS, he can't brew his own, as Potion Brewing is not allowed in PFS. Buying a potion would be a different story.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Mergy wrote:

The issue is that even if I have the extract in my formula book, how do I read my formula book to brew the extract?

It's not like I want to use up one of my precious extract slots always having to have remove blindness/deafness prepared.

Better to use the slot for alchemical allocation, and keep potions like this handy all the time.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
Mergy wrote:

The issue is that even if I have the extract in my formula book, how do I read my formula book to brew the extract?

It's not like I want to use up one of my precious extract slots always having to have remove blindness/deafness prepared.

Better to use the slot for alchemical allocation, and keep potions like this handy all the time.

I think this is my solution.

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