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Web spell vs. Spell caster


Rules Questions

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If a spell caster is caught in a web spell what are they limited to doing? From my reading they would not be able to cast spells. Is this correct? And can you you use the floor and walls as opposing surfaces?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

If they failed their initial saving throw, they would be grappled. This means they would have to make a concentration check to cast a spell.

The anchor points have to be diametrically opposed, so the floor and ceiling would work, or two walls on opposite sides of a room or corridor, so long as they are 40 feet or less apart.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Web:
"Creatures caught within a web become grappled by the sticky fibers."

Grappled:
"A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell."

-----------------

Web:
"These masses must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points or else the web collapses upon itself and disappears."


A circle on an angle would make the walls diametrically opposed to the floor. It doesn't state two parallel surfaces. And what if the spell requires material components


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Previous editions of the spell explicitly stated that the surfaces had to be parallel. If you think that they dropped this detailed explanation of what "diametrically" meant in this context specifically to enable anchoring a web spell to walls and ceiling, then go right ahead and do it. Personally, I think it was just to save space (since the intent was pretty clear), and I've never heard of anyone attempting to anchor the spell using just a wall and a floor.

Being grappled in a web doesn't completely immobilize a character, it just imposes some Dexterity and combat penalties, and prevents the character from performing two-handed actions. Fishing out material components is perfectly okay.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Callum wrote:
I've never heard of anyone attempting to anchor the spell using just a wall and a floor.

Really? How about in a forest (horizontal ground and vertical tress, no ceiling)? Next to a cliff/building? Never? Really?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Never. Really. Two handily-located trees in forest, maybe.


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Would the Still Metamagic feat alleviate the need to make a concentration check to cast the spell while being grappled?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Nope.


Logically speaking though, I've never actually seen a spider web connected by two parallel surfaces i don't think. Couldn't that be why the wording was changed? Because it was wrong.


Note that even SLAs, which don't have somatic components at all, still require a concentration check when grappled.


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Can’t say I agree with that. Ok, it’s RAW, so not arguing, just don’t understand why it doesn’t avoid the concentration check.

Besides for roleplaying reasons, what use is the Still feat good for?

Sczarni

Wearing heavy armor.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Hobbun wrote:

Can’t say I agree with that. Ok, it’s RAW, so not arguing, just don’t understand why it doesn’t avoid the concentration check.

Besides for roleplaying reasons, what use is the Still feat good for?

Remember, a concentration check is different than arcane spell failure. ASF is when something's interfering with your somatic components (such as armor) and Still Spell gets by that.

Concentration, though, is mental rather than physical. You have to make a concentration check while grappled for the same reason you have to make one while on a bumpy cart, a storm-tossed boat, or while casting defensively. It's not because your somatic gestures are restricted, it's because you're distracted.


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Jiggy wrote:
Hobbun wrote:

Can’t say I agree with that. Ok, it’s RAW, so not arguing, just don’t understand why it doesn’t avoid the concentration check.

Besides for roleplaying reasons, what use is the Still feat good for?

Remember, a concentration check is different than arcane spell failure. ASF is when something's interfering with your somatic components (such as armor) and Still Spell gets by that.

Concentration, though, is mental rather than physical. You have to make a concentration check while grappled for the same reason you have to make one while on a bumpy cart, a storm-tossed boat, or while casting defensively. It's not because your somatic gestures are restricted, it's because you're distracted.

Ok, that makes more sense. But if the main combat benefit the Still feat gives you is it allows casting in armor, I am probably going to rethink taking it.

I am a pure Sorcerer, so I do not wear armor, or have any plans on wearing any.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Hobbun wrote:

Ok, that makes more sense. But if the main combat benefit the Still feat gives you is it allows casting in armor, I am probably going to rethink taking it.

I am a pure Sorcerer, so I do not wear armor, or have any plans on wearing any.

It also helps if you get captured and your hands are bound or some such thing. And it would probably assist in stealthy casting (like if you wanted to charm a public speaker while standing in a noisy crowd without waving your arms all over the place).

Sczarni

Yea it does have its benefits but as you are probably realizing they are limitted to a few scenarios.

One that wasn't mentioned is it makes it easier to cast and not be caught in combat as well. So it will be a tad more difficult to counter spell or identify the spells you are casting. Same with Silent Spell.


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ossian666 wrote:

Yea it does have its benefits but as you are probably realizing they are limitted to a few scenarios.

One that wasn't mentioned is it makes it easier to cast and not be caught in combat as well. So it will be a tad more difficult to counter spell or identify the spells you are casting. Same with Silent Spell.

Is there RAW for making it more difficult to identify/counter spells casted with Still/Silent?

Or is that an assumed factor, and a higher DC is something the DM would need to assign?


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Without the Still Spell feat, you can't cast the spell at all while grappled.

Quote:
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

So, if you want the ability to even try to cast the spell, you need to have it Stilled.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

AvalonXQ wrote:

Without the Still Spell feat, you can't cast the spell at all while grappled.

Quote:
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
So, if you want the ability to even try to cast the spell, you need to have it Stilled.

Where are you pulling that from? It wasn't in the Grappled condition I referenced earlier. I hate when the rules are split up like that.

Sczarni

Its from the Spell Casting Section. Page 206 in Core Book.

Jiggy, thats why having 20 guys each write different chapters effs everything up. You get one definition one place and when cross referencing you get another completely different definition.

Quote:

Is there RAW for making it more difficult to identify/counter spells casted with Still/Silent?

Or is that an assumed factor, and a higher DC is something the DM would need to assign?

If you look under Perception the skill the difficulty for hearing is going to be more difficult for seeing in some scenarios and vice versa.

Perception


It's in the section that explains Concentration checks. I know it's annoying that the rules are split up, but honestly it makes sense to check the section that explains Concentration checks when a rule tells you that you need to make one.


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ossian666 wrote:


If you look under Perception the skill the difficulty for hearing is going to be more difficult for seeing in some scenarios and vice versa.

Perception

Ok, thank you. I can’t read the link (it’s blocked here at work). But it probably has the same info under the Paizo PF SRD, which I can view. I’ll go take a look there.

Jiggy wrote:
Where are you pulling that from? It wasn't in the Grappled condition I referenced earlier. I hate when the rules are split up like that.

Yes, agreed. I think Pathfinder is badly in need of a Rules Compendium like 3.5 had. My DM said it is a godsend. Helps him so much on finding rules much more quickly.

Fortunately it seems the Still feat appears to be a bit more useful now than I originally thought. My DM loves to use big monsters that grapple us.


Get mithral armor with armor spikes. And take the defensive shock spell. You should be able to put an end to that.

Sczarni

Yea I was using the DM Screen for the Grappled condition last week and it said NOTHING about not being able to cast...so there goes that quick reference guide...


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
AvalonXQ wrote:

Without the Still Spell feat, you can't cast the spell at all while grappled.

Quote:
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
So, if you want the ability to even try to cast the spell, you need to have it Stilled.

Emphasis mine. This is if you're the grappler, not the grapplee. Other text in the Combat section clearly mentions that the grappled condition leaves one hand free for spell casting.


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Jlin wrote:
Get mithral armor with armor spikes. And take the defensive shock spell. You should be able to put an end to that.

Never been a big fan of having a percentage chance on failing spells, even if it’s only light armor.

Sure, Still alleviates that, but don’t really want to add a spell level on all of my spells and cast them at a full round.

Sczarni

Oh man here comes the wording discrepency again...

The Grappler and the Grapplee BOTH gain the Grappled condition.


I play a wizard with an AC of 24 at 6th lvl and no failure. mithral drops the chance by 10th percent i believe


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Jlin wrote:
I play a wizard with an AC of 24 at 6th lvl and no failure. mithral drops the chance by 10th percent i believe

What armor are you wearing?

Either way, Mithral is extremely hard to come by in our campaign. If I am in a position where I can get a light, mithral armor that would drop the ASF to 0, I might go for it.

Although I think I probably would be fighting it out with one of our fighter types, or our Rogue. :)

Sczarni

Flow Chart for Grapple

This should answer all your questions.


Can't remember specifics. When I get home to the sheet ill hit us the post with the details.


So Web is the bane of all spellcasters (low Reflex saves + low CMB)? That's kewl!

Sczarni

Not really...its a level 2 spell. After like level 3 or 4 the DC isnt terribly high. Maybe 15 or or 16. It does suck but thats why you can burn it away and there is a placement limitation.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

That's also why every wizard should be an Eldritch Knight. ;)


I think i remember now. Feat: Light arcane armor training(-10%), mithral chain shirt(-10% SFC=0


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Jlin wrote:
I think i remember now. Feat: Light arcane armor training(-10%), mithral chain shirt(-10% SFC=0

Ok, that is even worse (for me) compared to getting mithral armor down the road. At least getting mirthral armor is only money. However, going down the Light Arcane Armor Training route is using up two feat slots. Much too costly.

But, thanks for the suggestion.

Sczarni

Or a fighter dip so you can go Eldritch Knight.

;)


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True. But, that’s not really the route I want to go down with that character. And the first EK level in not gaining a spell level is too costly, Sorcerers are behind enough as it is.


ossian666 wrote:
Not really...its a level 2 spell. After like level 3 or 4 the DC isnt terribly high. Maybe 15 or or 16. It does suck but thats why you can burn it away and there is a placement limitation.

I don't think it sucks because I like every options that can screw spellcasters. :)


Why two feat slots?


NM proficiency


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
AvalonXQ wrote:

Without the Still Spell feat, you can't cast the spell at all while grappled.

Quote:
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
So, if you want the ability to even try to cast the spell, you need to have it Stilled.
Where are you pulling that from? It wasn't in the Grappled condition I referenced earlier. I hate when the rules are split up like that.

That's because they are different things. The grappled condition is not the same as grappling.

You gain the grappled condition when grappling with another creature, or when it is applied to you by a spell, trap, etc. But there are whole sets of other rules associated with creatures grappling, or with the web spell, or with some net trap that I've just invented, none of which apply to the other situations.

Sczarni

Under Combat Section in Grapple

Quote:
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition.

Condition Section under Grappled

Quote:

Grappled

A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Under Concentration

Quote:

Grappling or Pinned

The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

Under Concentration

Quote:

Entangled

If you want to cast a spell while entangled in a net or by a tanglefoot bag or while you're affected by a spell with similar effects, you must make a concentration check to cast the spell (DC 15 + the level of the spell you're casting). You lose the spell if you fail.

Sir you are wrong. Whether you are the grappler or the grapplee you gain the Grappled Condition and then follow these confusing sets of rules.

Ironically if you are Entangled (as seen above) in a net or tanglefoot bag (to me BOTH sound like a web) its a whole different set of rules.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Ossian, you've missed what they're saying. Everyone knows the grappler and grapplee both gain the grappled condition. No one's denying that.

The point is that the part preventing spellcasting doesn't say "if you have the grappled condition" or "if you are grappled", it says "if you are grappling".

The argument is that "grappling" does not mean "have the grappled condition" but instead means "engaged in a grapple process" or perhaps "are in control of a grapple".

If you intend to refute that, it will require something other than reiterating the unrelated fact that someone in a grapple has the grappled condition.

Hope that helps.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Jiggy is quite correct.

The weak link in ossian666's chain of reasoning is looking at the concentration rules - which list lots of different ways in which a character can be required to make a concentration check - and assuming that the section "Grappling or Pinned" applies to a spellcaster grappled by a web spell. But this section just deals with grappling and pinning caused by creatures, and reminds us of some rules from that screed. The relevant section is actually the one headed "Spell".


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So confused.

Ok, so, my main concern is am I completely prohibited from attempting to cast spells when being grappled unless I have Still spell, or is that only when ‘grappling' (when I am initiating the grapple)?

Sczarni

Ok so lets travel back to my post in regards to Protection from Evil for a minute.

Quote:
Congrats you managed to find 1 of roughly 1,000 poorly worded descriptions in these books.

You know that isn't how it was meant to be played out. The problem is that the guy that wrote the spells section is a different guy than the guy that wrote the combat section than is a different guy that wrote the conditions section, and the editors did a fairly poor job at going back over the book and rectifying the THOUSANDS of subtle differences that each of the writers imparted in their sections.

Sczarni

Hobbun wrote:

So confused.

Ok, so, my main concern is am I completely prohibited from attempting to cast spells when being grappled unless I have Still spell, or is that only when ‘grappling' (when I am initiating the grapple)?

I'm saying no. And I was on the other side of the fence with Jiggy just a day ago, but I am assuming the guys making the books effed up again.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
ossian666 wrote:
Hobbun wrote:

So confused.

Ok, so, my main concern is am I completely prohibited from attempting to cast spells when being grappled unless I have Still spell, or is that only when ‘grappling' (when I am initiating the grapple)?

I'm saying no. And I was on the other side of the fence with Jiggy just a day ago, but I am assuming the guys making the books effed up again.

You can assume that all you want, if it's your table.

The text states that you cannot perform acts that require both hands while grappled; this implies that you can still perform actions that require one hand, such as stabbing, punching, tickling, or, yes, casting a spell with a somatic component. The grapplee can cast spells, even with somatic components, if they make their concentration check. The grappler cannot do this, as both of his hands are taken up trying to keep the grapplee down. If the grapplee turns the tables and becomes the grappler instead of escaping, now he can't cast spells but the original attacker can. Ruling that the caster can't even try to cast a spell even though he has a hand free is inconsistent with other situations that leave one hand free. If you rule that you must have both hands free to cast spells, you are house ruling, and you are altering more text than just the grapple rules.

RAW, if you want to prevent someone from casting spells via grapple, pin them. Then they're stuck with verbal-only spells. Or just kill them.

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