Callum |
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If they failed their initial saving throw, they would be grappled. This means they would have to make a concentration check to cast a spell.
The anchor points have to be diametrically opposed, so the floor and ceiling would work, or two walls on opposite sides of a room or corridor, so long as they are 40 feet or less apart.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Web:
"Creatures caught within a web become grappled by the sticky fibers."
Grappled:
"A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell."
-----------------
Web:
"These masses must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points or else the web collapses upon itself and disappears."
Callum |
Previous editions of the spell explicitly stated that the surfaces had to be parallel. If you think that they dropped this detailed explanation of what "diametrically" meant in this context specifically to enable anchoring a web spell to walls and ceiling, then go right ahead and do it. Personally, I think it was just to save space (since the intent was pretty clear), and I've never heard of anyone attempting to anchor the spell using just a wall and a floor.
Being grappled in a web doesn't completely immobilize a character, it just imposes some Dexterity and combat penalties, and prevents the character from performing two-handed actions. Fishing out material components is perfectly okay.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Can’t say I agree with that. Ok, it’s RAW, so not arguing, just don’t understand why it doesn’t avoid the concentration check.
Besides for roleplaying reasons, what use is the Still feat good for?
Remember, a concentration check is different than arcane spell failure. ASF is when something's interfering with your somatic components (such as armor) and Still Spell gets by that.
Concentration, though, is mental rather than physical. You have to make a concentration check while grappled for the same reason you have to make one while on a bumpy cart, a storm-tossed boat, or while casting defensively. It's not because your somatic gestures are restricted, it's because you're distracted.
Hobbun |
Hobbun wrote:Can’t say I agree with that. Ok, it’s RAW, so not arguing, just don’t understand why it doesn’t avoid the concentration check.
Besides for roleplaying reasons, what use is the Still feat good for?
Remember, a concentration check is different than arcane spell failure. ASF is when something's interfering with your somatic components (such as armor) and Still Spell gets by that.
Concentration, though, is mental rather than physical. You have to make a concentration check while grappled for the same reason you have to make one while on a bumpy cart, a storm-tossed boat, or while casting defensively. It's not because your somatic gestures are restricted, it's because you're distracted.
Ok, that makes more sense. But if the main combat benefit the Still feat gives you is it allows casting in armor, I am probably going to rethink taking it.
I am a pure Sorcerer, so I do not wear armor, or have any plans on wearing any.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Ok, that makes more sense. But if the main combat benefit the Still feat gives you is it allows casting in armor, I am probably going to rethink taking it.
I am a pure Sorcerer, so I do not wear armor, or have any plans on wearing any.
It also helps if you get captured and your hands are bound or some such thing. And it would probably assist in stealthy casting (like if you wanted to charm a public speaker while standing in a noisy crowd without waving your arms all over the place).
ossian666 |
Yea it does have its benefits but as you are probably realizing they are limitted to a few scenarios.
One that wasn't mentioned is it makes it easier to cast and not be caught in combat as well. So it will be a tad more difficult to counter spell or identify the spells you are casting. Same with Silent Spell.
Hobbun |
Yea it does have its benefits but as you are probably realizing they are limitted to a few scenarios.
One that wasn't mentioned is it makes it easier to cast and not be caught in combat as well. So it will be a tad more difficult to counter spell or identify the spells you are casting. Same with Silent Spell.
Is there RAW for making it more difficult to identify/counter spells casted with Still/Silent?
Or is that an assumed factor, and a higher DC is something the DM would need to assign?
AvalonXQ |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Without the Still Spell feat, you can't cast the spell at all while grappled.
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
So, if you want the ability to even try to cast the spell, you need to have it Stilled.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Without the Still Spell feat, you can't cast the spell at all while grappled.
Quote:The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.So, if you want the ability to even try to cast the spell, you need to have it Stilled.
Where are you pulling that from? It wasn't in the Grappled condition I referenced earlier. I hate when the rules are split up like that.
ossian666 |
Its from the Spell Casting Section. Page 206 in Core Book.
Jiggy, thats why having 20 guys each write different chapters effs everything up. You get one definition one place and when cross referencing you get another completely different definition.
Is there RAW for making it more difficult to identify/counter spells casted with Still/Silent?
Or is that an assumed factor, and a higher DC is something the DM would need to assign?
If you look under Perception the skill the difficulty for hearing is going to be more difficult for seeing in some scenarios and vice versa.
Hobbun |
If you look under Perception the skill the difficulty for hearing is going to be more difficult for seeing in some scenarios and vice versa.
Ok, thank you. I can’t read the link (it’s blocked here at work). But it probably has the same info under the Paizo PF SRD, which I can view. I’ll go take a look there.
Where are you pulling that from? It wasn't in the Grappled condition I referenced earlier. I hate when the rules are split up like that.
Yes, agreed. I think Pathfinder is badly in need of a Rules Compendium like 3.5 had. My DM said it is a godsend. Helps him so much on finding rules much more quickly.
Fortunately it seems the Still feat appears to be a bit more useful now than I originally thought. My DM loves to use big monsters that grapple us.
blahpers |
Without the Still Spell feat, you can't cast the spell at all while grappled.
Quote:The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.So, if you want the ability to even try to cast the spell, you need to have it Stilled.
Emphasis mine. This is if you're the grappler, not the grapplee. Other text in the Combat section clearly mentions that the grappled condition leaves one hand free for spell casting.
Hobbun |
Get mithral armor with armor spikes. And take the defensive shock spell. You should be able to put an end to that.
Never been a big fan of having a percentage chance on failing spells, even if it’s only light armor.
Sure, Still alleviates that, but don’t really want to add a spell level on all of my spells and cast them at a full round.
Hobbun |
I play a wizard with an AC of 24 at 6th lvl and no failure. mithral drops the chance by 10th percent i believe
What armor are you wearing?
Either way, Mithral is extremely hard to come by in our campaign. If I am in a position where I can get a light, mithral armor that would drop the ASF to 0, I might go for it.
Although I think I probably would be fighting it out with one of our fighter types, or our Rogue. :)
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Hobbun |
I think i remember now. Feat: Light arcane armor training(-10%), mithral chain shirt(-10% SFC=0
Ok, that is even worse (for me) compared to getting mithral armor down the road. At least getting mirthral armor is only money. However, going down the Light Arcane Armor Training route is using up two feat slots. Much too costly.
But, thanks for the suggestion.
Callum |
AvalonXQ wrote:Where are you pulling that from? It wasn't in the Grappled condition I referenced earlier. I hate when the rules are split up like that.Without the Still Spell feat, you can't cast the spell at all while grappled.
Quote:The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.So, if you want the ability to even try to cast the spell, you need to have it Stilled.
That's because they are different things. The grappled condition is not the same as grappling.
You gain the grappled condition when grappling with another creature, or when it is applied to you by a spell, trap, etc. But there are whole sets of other rules associated with creatures grappling, or with the web spell, or with some net trap that I've just invented, none of which apply to the other situations.
ossian666 |
Under Combat Section in Grapple
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition.
Condition Section under Grappled
Grappled
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Under Concentration
Grappling or Pinned
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
Under Concentration
Entangled
If you want to cast a spell while entangled in a net or by a tanglefoot bag or while you're affected by a spell with similar effects, you must make a concentration check to cast the spell (DC 15 + the level of the spell you're casting). You lose the spell if you fail.
Sir you are wrong. Whether you are the grappler or the grapplee you gain the Grappled Condition and then follow these confusing sets of rules.
Ironically if you are Entangled (as seen above) in a net or tanglefoot bag (to me BOTH sound like a web) its a whole different set of rules.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Ossian, you've missed what they're saying. Everyone knows the grappler and grapplee both gain the grappled condition. No one's denying that.
The point is that the part preventing spellcasting doesn't say "if you have the grappled condition" or "if you are grappled", it says "if you are grappling".
The argument is that "grappling" does not mean "have the grappled condition" but instead means "engaged in a grapple process" or perhaps "are in control of a grapple".
If you intend to refute that, it will require something other than reiterating the unrelated fact that someone in a grapple has the grappled condition.
Hope that helps.
Callum |
Jiggy is quite correct.
The weak link in ossian666's chain of reasoning is looking at the concentration rules - which list lots of different ways in which a character can be required to make a concentration check - and assuming that the section "Grappling or Pinned" applies to a spellcaster grappled by a web spell. But this section just deals with grappling and pinning caused by creatures, and reminds us of some rules from that screed. The relevant section is actually the one headed "Spell".
ossian666 |
Ok so lets travel back to my post in regards to Protection from Evil for a minute.
Congrats you managed to find 1 of roughly 1,000 poorly worded descriptions in these books.
You know that isn't how it was meant to be played out. The problem is that the guy that wrote the spells section is a different guy than the guy that wrote the combat section than is a different guy that wrote the conditions section, and the editors did a fairly poor job at going back over the book and rectifying the THOUSANDS of subtle differences that each of the writers imparted in their sections.
ossian666 |
So confused.
Ok, so, my main concern is am I completely prohibited from attempting to cast spells when being grappled unless I have Still spell, or is that only when ‘grappling' (when I am initiating the grapple)?
I'm saying no. And I was on the other side of the fence with Jiggy just a day ago, but I am assuming the guys making the books effed up again.
blahpers |
Hobbun wrote:I'm saying no. And I was on the other side of the fence with Jiggy just a day ago, but I am assuming the guys making the books effed up again.So confused.
Ok, so, my main concern is am I completely prohibited from attempting to cast spells when being grappled unless I have Still spell, or is that only when ‘grappling' (when I am initiating the grapple)?
You can assume that all you want, if it's your table.
The text states that you cannot perform acts that require both hands while grappled; this implies that you can still perform actions that require one hand, such as stabbing, punching, tickling, or, yes, casting a spell with a somatic component. The grapplee can cast spells, even with somatic components, if they make their concentration check. The grappler cannot do this, as both of his hands are taken up trying to keep the grapplee down. If the grapplee turns the tables and becomes the grappler instead of escaping, now he can't cast spells but the original attacker can. Ruling that the caster can't even try to cast a spell even though he has a hand free is inconsistent with other situations that leave one hand free. If you rule that you must have both hands free to cast spells, you are house ruling, and you are altering more text than just the grapple rules.
RAW, if you want to prevent someone from casting spells via grapple, pin them. Then they're stuck with verbal-only spells. Or just kill them.