Web spell vs. Spell caster


Rules Questions

51 to 62 of 62 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Blahpers, you are basing your argument on a distinction between the "grappler" and the "grapplee" and that the only person "grappling" is the "grappler".

Please cite the rules to support your distinction.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

He can't. He argues for RAW, but sadly RAW does NOT differenciate. You gain the grappled condition whether you are the grappler or grapplee. Its a long if/then statement chain.

If you are grappling (grappler or grapplee) then you get the grappled condition. If you have the grappled condition then you need to make a concentration check to cast. If you have to make a concentration check then you have to follow the rules in the concentration section. If you follow the rules of the concentration section then you can not cast.


I'm still on the fence on this but I think that ossian666's arguments are more supported by RAW than Blahpers'. However, both interpretations of the rules leave a lot of unanswered question, like what is the CMB of a Web spell (for determining the concentration check DC of spells without a somatic component when grappled).


ossian666 wrote:
Ironically if you are Entangled (as seen above) in a net or tanglefoot bag (to me BOTH sound like a web) its a whole different set of rules.

Here you've hit the nail on the head. In 3.5E, a web spell causes a creature to become entangled. In Pathfinder, the designers decided to change that to a new condition, grappled (although they kept entangled for other uses, such as the tanglefoot bag). Unfortunately, the new grappled condition is very poorly written, starting off by saying that "A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect", but then subsequently only referring to being grappled by a creature (for example, the concentration check DC is determined by the grappler's CMB). It's just a clumsy mashing-together of the entangled condition with some rules about creatures grappling one another, and needs to be rewritten with proper care and attention.


Maerimydra wrote:
However, both interpretations of the rules leave a lot of unanswered question, like what is the CMB of a Web spell (for determining the concentration check DC of spells without a somatic component when grappled).

This question is answered if you take my view that, for a character grappled by a web spell, you should be looking at the the "Spell" section of the concentration rules, not the "Grappling or pinned" section.

Sczarni

And as Callum said that is what you have to do, because as I stated when they made these books they had different writers for different sections and the editting was lack luster to catch these subtle differences everywhere.

Maerimydra the CMB for the Web spell in regards to the Concentration check would be the Spell DC.


AvalonXQ wrote:

Blahpers, you are basing your argument on a distinction between the "grappler" and the "grapplee" and that the only person "grappling" is the "grappler".

Please cite the rules to support your distinction.

Sure thing. (Please note: I'm not trying to be uselessly obstinate; this is how I read the RAW and interpret it.)

There is one place the rules make a distinction between the person in control of the grapple (the "grappler" or the one who is grappling) and "grappled" (the condition): the grapple rules themselves. There is a definition of "grappler": they're the ones who initiated the grappler. They get to do all of the fun actions, like move, damage, pin, tie up, and release without a check.

The "grapplee" (note: the text doesn't use this term directly; by this I mean the grappled creature that did not initiate) can try to break free, reverse the grapple, or perform other actions that require fewer than two hands. This is the place where the term "grappler" itself is actually used: if you reverse the grapple, you become the grappler.

Since they've used the term "grappler", I must assume the following:
[list=1]

  • Other places where they differentiate between the act of grappling and the condition of being grappled must intend the same distinction--the person who initiates/is in control of (is "grappling") is the "grappler".
  • The only place in RAW that relates to grappling and being unable to cast spells that require somatic or material components specifically uses the word "grappling", not "grappled". (This is the language under the Magic section referred to above by ossian666.) Nowhere in that section does the text say that the grappled condition itself prohibits such spells--only that "grappling" does. Since the target of the grapple is grappled but is not grappling (remember, grappling is an action, not a condition), this text does not apply to the target.
  • The "grappled" condition text itself does not prohibit casting spells that require somatic or material components.
  • Thus, there is no prohibition on casting spells that require somatic or material components while being grappled--unless you're the grappler.

    To sum up: "Grappling" is an action, not a condition. "Grappled" is a condition. "Grappling" prohibits casting spells requiring a hand; "Grappled" does not.

  • Sczarni

    Quote:

    Grappling or Pinned

    The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
    Quote:

    grappling

    present participle of grap·ple (Verb)Verb:
    1.Engage in a close fight or struggle without weapons; wrestle.

    There is the definition of grappling. It is to engage in a close fight or struggle without weapons; wrestle. So BOTH parties involved in the Grapple are therefore participants and grappling each other.


    The modifier table also uses the term "grappling", which is a data point that the term is used synonymously with "grappled" rather than synonymously with "being the grappler".

    Further, SKR explicitly uses "grappling" in the FAQ to refer to either the "grappler" or "grapplee".

    So I disagree that only the "grappler" is "grappling". I contend that both parties are "grappling".


    ossian666 wrote:
    Quote:

    Grappling or Pinned

    The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
    Quote:

    grappling

    present participle of grap·ple (Verb)Verb:
    1.Engage in a close fight or struggle without weapons; wrestle.
    There is the definition of grappling. It is to engage in a close fight or struggle without weapons; wrestle. So BOTH parties involved in the Grapple are therefore participants and grappling each other.

    Dictionaries aren't terribly helpful for things like this.


    2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
    AvalonXQ wrote:

    The modifier table also uses the term "grappling", which is a data point that the term is used synonymously with "grappled" rather than synonymously with "being the grappler".

    Further, SKR explicitly uses "grappling" in the FAQ to refer to either the "grappler" or "grapplee".

    So I disagree that only the "grappler" is "grappling". I contend that both parties are "grappling".

    I checked the FAQ, the term "grappling" is used interchangeably to mean "the one that grapples" and "either party in a grapple". There are cases where one makes sense and the other doesn't, and vice versa. Since the FAQ does not settle on a single definition (though the relevant rulings make sense in context), I have to default to RAW unless and until a FAQ specifically addresses the issue.

    I have no more arguments to offer regarding this mechanic, and everybody left in the conversation seems unconvinced by opposing arguments. At this point, the only constructive thing to do would be to either stick with your decision for your table or request a FAQ:

    "Can a creature who is being grappled (but is not the initiator of the grapple) cast a spell with somatic and/or material components?"

    I am more than willing to abide by said FAQ. Until then, I will continue my current approach.


    2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

    We may as well go the whole hog and also ask:

    "Can a creature who has gained the grappled condition from a spell such as web cast a spell with somatic and/or material components?"

    51 to 62 of 62 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
    Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Web spell vs. Spell caster All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.