Goblin Squad Member
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By that I mean:
Please don't blatantly waste our time for no good reason.
time = money
If you are going to make me run around a city talking to NPC's for 10 minutes, the end reward should be more than a coin, it should be closer to running out and slaying beasts for 5 minutes.
A horse can gallop at 25-30 miles per hour, reflect this in the game. Don't take something like a speeder-bike and turn it into a scooter-bike.
Transitioning from 'Settlement A' to 'Settlement Q' should not require loading 5 zones that we will never set foot in and sitting through 4 load screens.
This, please this.
Lol. Is this a thing now? "Pulling a SWOTOR"?
Love it.
I played it briefly. But my out-of-date laptop couldn't keep up.
At all. It was mostly just a time-waster for other games, anyway.
Or raiding production camps and caravans going across the countryside. >:D
Surely they've built in this type of PvP, right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or raiding production camps and caravans going across the countryside. >:D
Surely they've built in this type of PvP, right?
They have, but I sincerely doubt a raiding party will be going on at all times at all places. I expect epic battles here and there, but not so much if I'm futzing around on a Tuesday afternoon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It has nothing to do with being Action-Packed.
I has everything to do with wasting time. It shouldn't take 10x longer to get to a quest than it does to do the quest, or that quest should have 10x the reward as a similar quest you are currently standing at.
If you are managing workers, you are doing something, not scooting along on a machine you just blew 50 levels of cash on that only gives you a 20% higher speed boost than the one that was 10% of the cost.
The player should always be accomplishing something. The only area where a travel sink should be used is in keeping new players away from high difficulty zones they stand no chance in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The blog specifically talked about how distance and travel time were going to be a fundamental part of the game. You're going to spend a lot of time getting from place to place.
...For a reason. The important thing to add here is that any travel will be done with some purpose in mind whether it be war, trade, adventuring, industry, etc.
And this relates to pathfinder how? All I see are rants about a MMO....well surprise, its been that way since they first started.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Distance traveling is different in a sandbox. Chances are you are't going to a new location to pick a flower and then go home.
SWTOR gives you nothing more than the feeling of "hey look at all this junk to distract you from how shallow our game really is, and how horribly we optimized rendering!"
I don't know how to explain it specifically, but there is a distinct feeling when a game trying nothing more than to waste your time so you will hopefully keep a subscription open longer.
If you are going to make me run around a city talking to NPC's for 10 minutes, the end reward should be more than a coin, it should be closer to running out and slaying beasts for 5 minutes.
Oh, so you'd like the Pathfinder Role Playing Game Online to be less about roleplaying and more about combat. Got it.
Don't you hate it when those nerds make you waste your time talking to stuff?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are going to make me run around a city talking to NPC's for 10 minutes, the end reward should be more than a coin, it should be closer to running out and slaying beasts for 5 minutes.Oh, so you'd like the Pathfinder Role Playing Game Online to be less about roleplaying and more about combat. Got it.
Don't you hate it when those nerds make you waste your time talking to stuff?
Well IMO multiple choice options fails to count as roleplaying in the sense that they can't anticipate any nuances or depth in your character the deepest it can get is let you pick one of the 3 or 4 anticipated personality types, and 90% of the time at that you have to pick the one it wants or you don't get the quest. When people want roleplay they want a story that is centered around their character, not their character to be roped into hearing about bob the florist and Jena the milkmaid's love affair.
Anything resembling serious role playing will be between PCs.
Second this isn't referring to the concept of dialogue anyway, it's talking about quests like "Deliver my letter to joe on the far side of town, then come back here and I'll pay you". IE tedious quests with little challenge, depth or fun, just repetitive walking around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I understand what Valkenr was trying to get at. Let me phrase it the way I was thinking it:
If you're going to have a quest to run around a city talking to everyone for 20 minutes, don't give a pittance reward.
The keyword here is "have a quest...". And PFO doesn't sound like it will be big on quests. At least, NPC exclamation-point kind of quests. So if you run around the city for 20 minutes talking to people with a pittance reward, it won't be because some man with his feet nailed to the ground told you to. It will be because you really just wanted to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just never want to feel like my time is being wasted. The biggest way to not do this, is to not fudge logic to throw in an extra time sink or account for poor programming.
The main example (from SWTOR) is taking a vehicle like a speeder-bike, which you expect to go fast(like the Endor chase scene), and making it only a 1.9-2.1x the speed of jogging.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed! Mounted speed should be at least 4 times normal run speed, not just 60% faster.
Of course, there are probably valid technical reasons related to rendering why they may not be able to do this. Of course, I would be thrilled if, while riding a fast horse or speeder, the rendering were changed significantly so that I didn't see any real level of detail. Maybe there could even be a blurring effect.
I'm very curious to see how the PvE works. IIRC it was previously mentioned that campaigns and modules would be sold via the store. Presumably these would be available as part of the package to subscribers.
While this makes sense to me having played DDO off and on since it came out, it fails to make sense to me in the context of a sandbox with time based advancement.
First because you can't really quantify what you're trying to sell to marketing. DDO being basically a hacked up D&D 3.5 can say, "Intended for balanced parties of adventurers, levels 14-16". Pathfinder I suppose could say, "Balanced archetypes levels 7-10" but there is a ton of leeway there to have characters that are more or less suitable to actual combat. Also, level 7-10 are characters that are about a year old. That's about the oldest you could ever anticipate characters being while designing modules because of attrition in a game with a super long curve.
Second because you can't load up these modules with fantastical loot in any way I can figure out without invalidating much of the idea of a crafting/economy based game.
So, I think it's safe to assume there will be introductory quests to pull you into the game and explain the game systems, the rest of how PvE might work is entirely mysterious to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Marou, if you check back in the blog, there is a section detailing PvE content that can be discovered such as caverns, ruins, and lairs. This content appears when found, and disappears when completed. In addition hostile NPC's can put up camps that will slowly grow in size and begin threatening larger areas until it can eventually overtake an entire hex. Once the camp is destroyed, it doesn't reappear in the same spot in the same way.
The modules could be scaled to whoever is using them, or not. They could have a difficulty slider you could set before entering. Or they could have none of these things, be a fixed experience, and it would be up to the player reading the description and testing out the content to see if it was doable. It'll work itself out.
Lastly, certain crafting materials can only be found via PvE adventuring content. It's a critical part of the production economy. Modules and discovered PvE content will almost certainly drop those crafting materials, and modules will probably have a particular item or two that drops after the module is complete. Something nice for your efforts, maybe with a particular effect that isn't easily found via crafting, but that isn't any stronger than a crafted item.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lastly, certain crafting materials can only be found via PvE adventuring content. It's a critical part of the production economy. Modules and discovered PvE content will almost certainly drop those crafting materials, and modules will probably have a particular item or two that drops after the module is complete. Something nice for your efforts, maybe with a particular effect that isn't easily found via crafting, but that isn't any stronger than a crafted item.
I'm still not sold on the idea that modules should drop the rare crafting materials. How do you fairly ballance a module and a lair together so the risk-reward factor is equal?
Lair: Travel out and search the wilderness, find lair, attempt to regroup and gather a team, getting back to the lair before a different group gathers and clears the lair before your return, clear the lair, avoid any number of ambushes, attacks, and supprises on your way home.
With
Go to the central module hub, shout LFG module X, join in, clear scripted module, deposit items in bank, and rejoin another module.
Everything in the modules implies ease of access, 0 competition, 0 searching, and even repeatability. Everything about lairs, hideouts etc... implies potentially long search times, difficulty finding, the better ones being far from civilization etc...
GW has repeatedly said it is all about high risk/high reward, low risk/low reward. IMO the only fair way modules can be done, is if they are for reputation and possibly a coin faucet on par with the shorter easier quests/missions. Or even be one of the main tasks for NPC quests/missions. That also clears the door for player created modules, as one could design a guild reputation system. IE lets say the seventh veil designed an instance that earns reputation within their group. They made it a very team work based instance, intentionally with the purpose of filtering out people who don't work into teams. That earns 50 reputation with 7th veil. Then they also offered collection missions for 7th veil, where you have to Give X resources to one of their towns. It would reward in reputation and coin for 7th veil. Then they set it so that at 100 reputation you could purchase from stores in their towns, and at 150 you could apply for a position in the company. Who knows maybe at 300 or so you could get discounts (the costs could be offset to the guild by the increase in materials you brought in)
Now we have a function for player and NPC modules, that does not step on the toes of the discovered content and open up the can of worms of how to ballance something hard to find with high dangers of ambush etc.., with something in a central hub
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi, interesting idea and good point. Perhaps modules will only drop certain crafting components based on their content, and at a lower frequency than content found through exploration. The money faucet idea makes sense. The reputation idea sounds interesting, I know Forencith would be down for something like that.
Also, discovered PvE content can also be found close to civilization. It's just different types are harder depending on if you're near a city/town or if you're in the wilderness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was a discussion back in that blog post's thread about this topic exactly. The conclusion was reached that no matter how hard you try, people will create easy ways to get high reward.
Look at COH's architect. I got 5 characters to max level in 2 days when it launched. They fixed that fast, but then new ways where discovered since you can control the type of creature that spawns(necessary for story elements) and build to resist them, and just farm your heart away.
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@Skwiziks
In Eve, even Veldspar (the most common ore in the game) was in constant demand as building a single battleship requires several haulers worth of ore to make. I think this will be the same depending on the level of detail Goblinworks puts into crafting. To make a mundane sword you rightfully need iron/steel/adamantine/etc ingots, wood, coal, water, leather and bronze/pewter/gold for finishings. More advanced items would need all that and more. Also in Eve, the most profitable ores were in the most dangerous areas of space. This makes sense and could be echoed in PFO by putting certain creatures next to, say, magical ingredients as they're attracted to or feed off its energy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was a discussion back in that blog post's thread about this topic exactly. The conclusion was reached that no matter how hard you try, people will create easy ways to get high reward.
Look at COH's architect. I got 5 characters to max level in 2 days when it launched. They fixed that fast, but then new ways where discovered since you can control the type of creature that spawns(necessary for story elements) and build to resist them, and just farm your heart away.
Assuming you guarantee rewards. Hence the reason why the system I recomend, player created modules and mission's only rewards, are given by the players. IE reputation that only means what the company wants it to mean. Sure I could create a company, and build a module for my company and give myself and anyone who wants it infinite reputation for my company, but what am I or anyone else going to do with it, I can pay myself less when I buy from myself, or I can let others pay less when they buy from me.
Exactly why I propose a system for player modules in which modules themselves serve as but trials for entery, the devs may put certain ones of their own as merit badge pre-reqs etc... (Prefferably not ones that cost above the normal subscription rate)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there are rewards, they should be finite, and have to be replenished by the maker. So if you want a Dragon Slaying Sword of +10 pantie raiding as the reward, you must make it and stock the module.
If there are loot tables in the module, the creator should also provide them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there are rewards, they should be finite, and have to be replenished by the maker. So if you want a Dragon Slaying Sword of +10 pantie raiding as the reward, you must make it and stock the module.
If there are loot tables in the module, the creator should also provide them.
This is a creative solution. I like it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anything GW comes out with will be balanced for the reward. You won't see one of their modules that is more effective at doing something regularly reserved for open world activity.
But Ryan should have to log in and stock all of the missions, with a character that has not been artificially advanced
jk ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just for clarification, PvE in a pure sandbox is entirely player driven. I understand the discussion has moved to modules, and I really like Valkenr's solution above. But, when taking about non-module PvE, that may simply be a group of people getting together to explore a new area. Or maybe hunt for a rare crafting ingredient...either way, the formality of the mission system and the rewards will be entirely the responsibility of the players. GW has stated they intend to have some theme park elements, but I do not think we should expect anything other than a starter tutorial or faction missions, especially at the start. I would much rather they spend the time developing the world to such a degree that players have the freedom and ability to create their own content. PvP specifically refers to players playing against other players, everything else is PvE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can't do a WoW in space with only two minor extra features and hype your game as a revolution to the genre and then expect to not massively disappoint your player base.
If Blizzard would have been smart and themed the next expansion around "the void between the stars" or something like that instead of kung fu panda, I guess SW:TOR would have been a ghost town sooner than later.
Mr. RD told us that all the important content would be player created and that player interaction would be paramount. When I hear modules I hear instancing and that would be a huge let down for me as I had hoped for a 100% persistant world. About the loot gotten there I think it will be mediocre, appealing to newbies more than veterans. The main motivation to do a module should not be monetary but rather for fun and for intangible rewards.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally love roleplaying but I hate when my role is shoved down my throat by the game, and everyone else follows the same story. No matter what you did in TOR you followed the same basic storyline as everyone else in your class. I didn't want to be the same smuggler as every other smuggler. I wanted to be Captain Tharak Meuridiar.
The dialouge was witty and entertaining but in the end, when the storyline ran out the game was empty, and I wasn't as in to the other storylines as I was the smuggler one. I certainly did not care enough to suffer through a WoW-Gear grind just to do mediocre to crap PVP and wait for another expansion. I couldn't even really enjoy playing the same character I did in the storyline since I had to separate my storyline RP from my regular RP in order for it to make sense.
Talking is fine. Especially if the dialogue is as well written as it was in TOR. The mistake I wouldn't like to see copied is a linear storyline. I would avoid any player-centered storyline at all. Just have some epic quests out there available to us. If a storyline is included it needs to be large, player driven, and make the player feel like they are a small part of something much bigger than themselves. Not the singular hero driving the story on.
Let us define the part we play in this world ourselves. If that means no storyline at all then that is fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let us define the part we play in this world ourselves. If that means no storyline at all then that is fine.
QFT!
ST:TOR would have been fine as a solo/co-op player game with some arena PvP tacked on (aka Diablo 3).
Yes, I know that WoW is basically not any different but it has been around for a long time and can be hugely successful at doing what it always did.
But that doesn't mean that any other game can be.
As my TOR playing friends said: it is great but very costly Single Player Game.
Time sinks in subscription MMOs are there on purpose, just to delay the moment when the player has explored the whole game and stopped playing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@LazarX, that's right, but it's kind of beside the point.
I was about 15 years old living on my stepfather's ranch when we had a mare and a colt. I went out once on my own, saddled up the mare (an Arabian) and proceeded to ride her from the barn almost all the way to the house (most of a mile, anyway) as fast as she would go.
It was scary fast. It was over quick. And it left me feeling a bit like I had cheated death.
I would love to see there be a fatigue cost to traveling on foot, and a niche for sturdy traveling horses that can walk 8 hours straight with a heavy load at a pace a bit faster than a man can walk.
But I'd also like to see fast horses that can really chew up the miles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought Mortal Online did horses PERFECTLY. You could tap W and it would raise your horse up to the next level of speed, or S to bring it down a level of speed. At the bottom level the horse regenerates stamina pretty fast and won't get the guards called on you if you bump into people in town. At the next speed you have more of a chance to bump people in town and you regenerate speed slower. At the next speed you slowly degenerate stam and can trample people, and at the fastest speed your stam goes down pretty quick and woe to those who stand in front of your horse.
Beyond that different breeds of horses would regenerate stamina at different rates, and move different speeds. So you could run a bull horses for a VERY long time, but a desert horse was the fastest.
It worked perfectly IMO because its just like when I rode real horses. I would make a clucking sound to tell it to go faster and lightly tug the reigns to tell it to slow down. Doing this would make it go up or down from walk, to trot, to canter, to gallop.
Having it behave this way in a game proved to be a lot of fun.
MO system = Perfect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can we shoot the horse out from under our pursuers? For example, I am hauling a load of cargo via wagon and team when a couple of bandits try to rob me. I can whip the team up to a short run to attempt to get away but, since these bandits are mounted, their horses would outrun mine. Maybe my arrow doesn't hit the bandit (since as a trader I didn't put much time into training my bow), but hits the horse instead. I think the horses should be able to be killed also. It would at least give the wagoner a fighting chance at getting away with cargo intact. *grins* Of course, if horses can be killed, the bandits could just kill mine and I would be robbed/killed anyway. Maybe they can just be maimed or seriously injured and recover over time.
I suppose losing one's horse could be like losing a ship in Eve and there could be many different kinds just like there are many different kinds of ships. The lighter faster ones that are harder to hit but carry almost nothing, to the slower heavier kind that can take more damage but carry decent loads, the armored battle steed that is much slower but seriously hard to kill.
Also, horse breeding and wagon building could be an occupation. Or gear specifically for the horse and wagon themselves.
I'd be disappointed if bad shots were rewarded, but the idea of attacking people's mounts is totally awesome.
Not to mention bringing far more value to the riding skills, the mounted combat feats, and certain animal companions. :)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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One request:
More mounted animals than horses.A skilled animal trainer should be able to take anything of little to no intelligence and make it into a pet.
Dragon riding?
Wyverns might be possible to train. Dragons aren't trainable, but enough diplomacy might convince a dragon that transporting a humanoid is to the dragon's advantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wyverns might be possible to train. Dragons aren't trainable, but enough diplomacy might convince a dragon that transporting a humanoid is to the dragon's advantage.One request:
More mounted animals than horses.A skilled animal trainer should be able to take anything of little to no intelligence and make it into a pet.
Dragon riding?
Dragons are rideable in D&D. I should know I played a character of the Dragon-Rider prestige class.
But you are right you don't just lasso a dragon and teach it how to obey your orders. My character was a paladin of Bahumat (The good dragon god in regular D&D) before he took the dragon rider prestige class, and after he maxed it he took the Vassal of Bahumat prestige class.
My dragon was not a subservient animal. It was a partner, a young silver dragon who I had done a favor, and had chosen to fight alongside me. It could actually take human form and frequently in the campaign I would consult it since it had high skills in knowledge: just about everything.
Should dragon riding ever become a prestige class it needs to come with some serious penalties otherwise we will see 1000 dragon riders, and I for one would not like to see this game dominated by flying mounts. It should take commitment, persistence, and in the end you should not be able to form a balanced party of people with flying mounts. They should also be far less effective on foot though I would say on foot they should get their human form dragon as a companion as dragons are shape-shifters.
If it could be balanced out right that class would be EPIC. I know I would love to play one as it would suit my purpose of patrolling newb lands for griefers and building an unstoppable navy perfectly. I can't swim because of my heavy cleric armor!? Who cares! I ride a DRAGON!!!
But as entirely epic as a dragon rider prestige class would be, and as much as I would LOVE to play one, in the end if it means everyone is going to be up on the sky in flying mounts I say NO! If flying mounts in all mean that more than 30% of the older player-base are going to be up in the sky at all regularly I say NO!
Flying mounts should come with:
1. A wide array of anti air attacks for most classes, including attacks that can force us to the ground/water.
2. It should be REALLY hard to actually get a flying mount/flying mount prestige class.
3. Flying very quickly should drain the stamina of your mount very quickly so that if you are up in the sky not paying attention you are an easy target for other flying mounts who can streak across the sky and force your mount to the ground.
4. You need to be able to take other people up on your mount, probably with large penalties to combat if you do so, so everyone can experience flight once. It might even give you an option to let them take the reigns and fly as long as you are up there with them. EVERYONE is going to want to fly at least once. This will cut down on the people who are going to specialize their character in doing so.
5. Flying mounted classes should just be straight up weaker than non-flying mounted classes on foot, making them worse at dungeons, fighting inside of buildings, or if they get dismounted. Really if you dedicate yourself to the art of fighting in the sky you will just not be as effective in a cramped dungeon.
6. You might make flying mounts difficult to control, and you for sure would limit what skills could be used in flight. A dragon riders main attack should be their dragon's breath and claws. They shouldn't be casting massive fireballs and such on top of their dragon's attacks... infact I would say flying a dragon would be too distracting to use arcane magic that requires inductions at all.
7. Young dragons only. Nobody wants to face somebodies Wyrm.