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Impaling crit and unarmed strike...


Rules Questions


So pressume that we have a level 15 monk with an attack sequence just around 10 attacks (6 fob, 1 haste, 1 ki, 2 medusa), with critical focus, impaling crit and either boar style or humutulusa (or something similar), making his unarmed attacks piercing and thus qualify for impaling crit.

Impaling crit:
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with the selected piercing melee weapon, you can impale your opponent on your weapon. While your opponent is impaled in this way, each time he starts his turn, you deal damage equal to your weapon’s damage dice plus the extra damage dice from your weapon’s properties. As an immediate action, you can pull your weapon out of your opponent. If your opponent is ever outside your reach, you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon or pull it out of him. Your opponent can also spend a move action to pull your weapon out. When the weapon comes out, your opponent takes damage as if starting his turn impaled. While you impale your opponent with your weapon, you cannot use it to attack, and you must hold on to it.

So my question is this, since you cant attack with a weapon that is impaling your opponent, but the description under unarmed attacks say you can attack with any part of your body, and with the resent ruling on FoB indicating that each part of your body counts as a different weapon.

Then how many times can the monk make an impaling crit in one round, without pulling out the weapon of the opponent?

are we talking
2 times, 1 for each arm
4 times, 1 for each arm and leg,
8 times, 1 for hands, elbows, feet and knees
9 if we include the head..
technically he can also use his body for body slam and still deal piercing damage....

By the rules i cant think of anything actually restricting the monk as unarmed attacks are never specified in how many parts of your body you can attack with.

I guess i am mostly leaning towards either 1 (whole body counts as 1 weapon even if resent FoB clarification kinda screwed that over), or 5 (head and each limb), what do you guys think about RAW and possible RAI.


1 if you're ignoring the recent clarification, or an....exceedingly large potential number if you're following the clarification.

I obviously don't follow the clarification, but I would definitely let the monk impale multiple different creatures (up to 5, one for each limb plus the head) with his unarmed strike simultaneously if they were within reach. That'd be hilarious!


I'd go with infinite times as RAW since technically the rules state that you may use any part of the body which means that you could pick an infinite number of points and all of them would be valid weapon choices.

On the other hand personally I'd probably limit it to the number of limbs a monk has available so 4+1 for the head for the sake of it not being really weird but nothing in the rules necessarily says that.

As for RAI I dunno probably 2 in order to function the same way as for weapons when two weapon fighting.


But this can actually get a little insane if we say unlimited. he can achieve 10 attacks by level 15, and with a 19-20 crit and hitting each for 2d8 + 1d6 + str stuff, means that if he gets a little lucky he can impale the same creature 3-4 times in a round. If we say 4, then the monster would take 8d8 + 4d6 = 50 damage in the beginning of its turn, another 50 on average if it moves outside of the monks reach. Thats pretty insane actually.


A 15-level character doing an average of 100 damage to a monster in one round is insane? I think you're missing a lot of possibilities out there.


Even better, what happens when the monster moves outside of the monks reach if he is impaled 5 times?

It is an immidiate action to pull out a weapon from the opponent, but since the monk only has 1 of those then he cant pull out all 5. Since he also cant drop his weapon, then what is he supposed to do? or would it just be a free action to rip all of the weapons out?

Cheliax

Yeah, still not overpowered. Have you seen what wizards can do at level 15?


nicklas Læssøe wrote:
But this can actually get a little insane if we say unlimited. he can achieve 10 attacks by level 15, and with a 19-20 crit and hitting each for 2d8 + 1d6 + str stuff, means that if he gets a little lucky he can impale the same creature 3-4 times in a round. If we say 4, then the monster would take 8d8 + 4d6 = 50 damage in the beginning of its turn, another 50 on average if it moves outside of the monks reach. Thats pretty insane actually.

*shrug* It's less about the damage than it is about the crazy body melding image I get when I try to think of impaling someone with 15 different parts of your body but I think that's a valid RAW point of view.

As I said I'd probably play it as the 4 limbs plus the head if I was GMing but that doesn't change the RAW.


Distant Scholar wrote:
A 15-level character doing an average of 100 damage to a monster in one round is insane? I think you're missing a lot of possibilities out there.

Hmm considering the opponent can easily also be prone and staggered, meaning it cant do anything at all, then the monk completely negates one opponent.

Also he would have 10 attacks in his own turn to hit the opponent, each doing something like 2d8 + 1d6 + 2 + 12 = 26.5 damage if they hit, a lot more if he uses power attack.

I just think that doing 100 damage to someone when it isnt even your turn is nothing to sneeze at, especially since having your hand inside someones guts is simply freaking awsome.


Also good luck casting any spells when you have taken 50 damage in your own turn already, whats that a dc 60 + spell level check?

Cheliax

nicklas Læssøe wrote:


Also good luck casting any spells when you have taken 50 damage in your own turn already, whats that a dc 60 + spell level check?

The wizard takes a move action to remove the weapon and takes x damage. Whatever. Since the continuing source of damage is now finished, there's no need for a concentration check. He then takes a 5-foot step back and casts dimension door; then let the barrage of spells begin.

EDIT: Even without removing the arm, the continuous damage is only the damage dice + bonuses on the weapon. If we give our monk a flaming, frost, shocking amulet of mighty fists and a monk's robe, we've got 2d10+3d6, so on average 21.5 damage.

Continuous damage concentration is only half the damage. I have no idea how you got 50 damage from the damage dice and weapon properties, but please post your math.

That means the concentration check is DC 25 + spell level. Now with an intellect that's probably 24 at least, we've got a concentration check of +22, +26 with Combat Casting; that means a dimension door is pretty easy to pull off. He also needs to cast defensively which is DC 15 + double the spell level; also easy.

I don't really see an issue here.


nicklas Læssøe wrote:


Also good luck casting any spells when you have taken 50 damage in your own turn already, whats that a dc 60 + spell level check?

Pfft goodluck ever getting to hit the flying invisible silent spell casting wizard in the first place.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I just can't get this mental image out of my head...


Mergy wrote:
nicklas Læssøe wrote:


Also good luck casting any spells when you have taken 50 damage in your own turn already, whats that a dc 60 + spell level check?

The wizard takes a move action to remove the weapon and takes x damage. Whatever. Since the continuing source of damage is now finished, there's no need for a concentration check. He then takes a 5-foot step back and casts dimension door; then let the barrage of spells begin.

EDIT: Even without removing the arm, the continuous damage is only the damage dice + bonuses on the weapon. If we give our monk a flaming, frost, shocking amulet of mighty fists and a monk's robe, we've got 2d10+3d6, so on average 21.5 damage.

Continuous damage concentration is only half the damage. I have no idea how you got 50 damage from the damage dice and weapon properties, but please post your math.

That means the concentration check is DC 25 + spell level. Now with an intellect that's probably 24 at least, we've got a concentration check of +22, +26 with Combat Casting; that means a dimension door is pretty easy to pull off. He also needs to cast defensively which is DC 15 + double the spell level; also easy.

I don't really see an issue here.

The damage was for multiple arms in the mage, each doing 2d8 + 2d6 damage.

I still think it is one of the sicker combos, because you can actually get damage done on the mage during the mages turn, thus forcing the concentration check. But this thread isnt really to argue if mages are more OP or not.

So back on track with the subject, what happens when the monster moves away from the monk?

It requires an immidate action from the monk to pull out the weapon, or a free action to let the weapon go. Since he cant let his arm fall away, and he only has 1 immidiate action per round, what happens if he managed to land 3 crits and are thus impaling the monster 3 times? what happens then? does it get ripped out as a free action, is the monk moved with the creature or what?

Cheliax

nicklas Læssøe wrote:
Mergy wrote:
nicklas Læssøe wrote:


Also good luck casting any spells when you have taken 50 damage in your own turn already, whats that a dc 60 + spell level check?

The wizard takes a move action to remove the weapon and takes x damage. Whatever. Since the continuing source of damage is now finished, there's no need for a concentration check. He then takes a 5-foot step back and casts dimension door; then let the barrage of spells begin.

EDIT: Even without removing the arm, the continuous damage is only the damage dice + bonuses on the weapon. If we give our monk a flaming, frost, shocking amulet of mighty fists and a monk's robe, we've got 2d10+3d6, so on average 21.5 damage.

Continuous damage concentration is only half the damage. I have no idea how you got 50 damage from the damage dice and weapon properties, but please post your math.

That means the concentration check is DC 25 + spell level. Now with an intellect that's probably 24 at least, we've got a concentration check of +22, +26 with Combat Casting; that means a dimension door is pretty easy to pull off. He also needs to cast defensively which is DC 15 + double the spell level; also easy.

I don't really see an issue here.

The damage was for multiple arms in the mage, each doing 2d8 + 2d6 damage.

I still think it is one of the sicker combos, because you can actually get damage done on the mage during the mages turn, thus forcing the concentration check. But this thread isnt really to argue if mages are more OP or not.

So back on track with the subject, what happens when the monster moves away from the monk?

It requires an immidate action from the monk to pull out the weapon, or a free action to let the weapon go. Since he cant let his arm fall away, and he only has 1 immidiate action per round, what happens if he managed to land 3 crits and are thus impaling the monster 3 times? what happens then? does it get ripped out as a free action, is the monk moved with the creature or what?

Where are you getting 2d8 + 2d6? You're also assuming multiple criticals on a full attack, which are both in my opinion very large assumptions versus any intelligent opponent.

I'm not saying it's a bad feat, but it's in no way broken. To answer your second question about multiple limbs impaling an opponent who moves away:

Impaling Critical (Combat, Critical) wrote:


Your critical hits can skewer your foes.
Prerequisite: Critical Focus, Weapon Specialization with selected piercing melee weapon, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with the selected piercing melee weapon, you can impale your opponent on your weapon. While your opponent is impaled in this way, each time he starts his turn, you deal damage equal to your weapon’s damage dice plus the extra damage dice from your weapon’s properties. As an immediate action, you can pull your weapon out of your opponent. If your opponent is ever outside your reach, you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon or pull it out of him. Your opponent can also spend a move action to pull your weapon out. When the weapon comes out, your opponent takes damage as if starting his turn impaled. While you impale your opponent with your weapon, you cannot use it to attack, and you must hold on to it.

"Spending" a free action is peculiar wording, but I would view this as a free action that is possible on your opponent's turn whenever the prerequisites are fulfilled. Therefore if the impaled opponent takes a full withdraw action, you would be forced to remove all limbs; of course, your opponent would take damage from each limb removed.

Silver Crusade

hey sounds good image wise, except the head, the rest can be made to point in some fashon. all the pressure on a single finger or the point of the shoe can do quite a lot of pain, if youre a monk of course, for anyone else that hurts.
"Power Poke of Death!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yar.

Just a random comment... one of the few posts I've ever had deleted was due to a monk build that did basically this, except...

seriously, what's in here is not nice:
...ANY part of a monks body can be used as a weapon... and he would use a certain member to make his piercing impaling attacks. Quick Dirty Trick to remove your opponents pants first.

Back on topic: the feat says:

Quote:
If your opponent is ever outside your reach, you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon or pull it out of him.

Key part here is "...or pull it out of him."

So, if you multi-impale a foe with your various unarmed strikes, should it ever move away from you, you get to pull all of your impaled limbs out as a free action, causing the appropriate damage at the same time.

~P

Ninja'ed by Mergy.

also: unarmed impaling crit in action (graphic)

Silver Crusade

you are a dirty old pirate you know that XD


Come on folks, use common sense. Common sense in this instance is so obvious, I'm not even going to say what it is.

Is this thread really about clarifying a rule, or is it just another thread intended to pick on the developers for what some people think is a poor ruling about flurry of blows?

Qadira

this is just a stupid thread.
flurry of blows
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
its 2 weapon fighting. you have 2 appendages you can make attacks with.
the 3.5 ruling was you may use any combination of body part attacks. get your updates straight.
unarmed strikes are meant to be punches. i love it when peoples only argument is "well the srd doesnt say it cant be"
unarmed strike damage is the same as a melee fist attack. improved unarmed strike says you no longer provoke aos from using unarmed strikes. no where in the class does it say that a monk can:
kick, bite, knee, elbow, butt heads, pelvic thrust, hit someone with his own throat, spin kick using the back of the knee etc etc.
these arguments serve only two points. to be slightly entertaining in there conception then to be outwardly annoying when people start trying to "clarify" a rule when what they are obviously doing is claiming they found a "hole" in the developers logic.
so for a final explanation of the rules as written
see flurry of blows posted above.
see two weapon fighting
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
see unarmed strike
Strike, Unarmed
Description: An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
see improved unarmed strike
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.

now read the actual wording on pathfinders flurry of blows again cause i know most of you just read the first few words then said "eh screw it im a freaking kung fu/muay tai master i punch with my niples" No where does it say you can kick someone. does your base race have a kick damage table. or is it just the unARMED strike damage??

so in closing this was a funny post and shame on anyone who supported it for anything besides entertainment.


Nephril wrote:

no where in the class does it say that a monk can:

kick, bite, knee, elbow, butt heads, pelvic thrust, hit someone with his own throat, spin kick using the back of the knee etc etc.

Oh really?

CRB: Monk Class wrote:
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
CRB: Combat wrote:
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

So at the very least the Core Rule Book has: fists, elbows, knees, feet, punches, kicks, and headbutts.


I am thinking that if you are up to your arm-pit in some guys stomach, don't grappling rules apply? ;)


What keeps a monk from grabing ahold of an organ and pulling it out... I rip your heart out! ... not that would be cool.


@ mergy

No where did i actually say that the feat is broken. This is definately using it for something that is a little outside its original intention, but besides being pretty darn good it would never make the monk OMG OP.

It would mean that he can actually compete with the fighters about doing damage, but i guess that is probably it.

Would also function pretty well with dimensional dervish to get close to any target and then start impaling.


KenderKin wrote:
I am thinking that if you are up to your arm-pit in some guys stomach, don't grappling rules apply? ;)

only if you get the improved version :) in which case he needs a grapple check to pull your arm out, or move out of range.

Though he cant really move out of range, because he is going to be staggered and sickened (leaving him with one action), and prone on the ground, and with the improved feat he has half movement so even the prone movement action to move 5 feet would be reduced to 0. So basically you can completely lock him down with trip and the improved impale feat.


btw i forgot to write that in order to do this you will need to either be a fighter multiclass (boring) or a monk weapon adept (picking unarmed attack) to gain the weapon specialization necessary for the feat.

Andoran

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Kali ma! Kali ma!


The Red Mage wrote:
Kali ma! Kali ma!

+1

Qadira

Tarantula wrote:
Nephril wrote:

no where in the class does it say that a monk can:

kick, bite, knee, elbow, butt heads, pelvic thrust, hit someone with his own throat, spin kick using the back of the knee etc etc.

Oh really?

CRB: Monk Class wrote:
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
CRB: Combat wrote:
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
So at the very least the Core Rule Book has: fists, elbows, knees, feet, punches, kicks, and headbutts.

my point being you cannot take it with one attack from each. you are limited to using only 2 extremities per round. two weapon fighting dictates 2 weapons. so knees one round and elbows the following then one foot and a hand the next but no:

knee/forehead/fist/fist/elbow/heel/face/wrist


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Anybody consider this interpretation?

Multiple Finger Impale.

"What we have here, young ingrate, is tremendous pain. You are experiencing it right now - as my fingers and thumb of my right hand are impaling your chest, tentatively holding your still beating heart. How much longer will it beat? If you don't surrender and call of your monkey squad - not very long, I assure you."

Followed by Intimidate check + massive circumstance bonus


Quote:
If your opponent is ever outside your reach, you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon or pull it out of him.

Since the action required to remove the weapon was already described I read this as "you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon, or pull it out of him [as an immediate action]."

Reversing the cheese: So the monk impales a creature with both hands, let's say a troll for fun. The troll, not liking this, moves away. The monk uses an immediate action to pull out one hand, but does not have another immediate action to remove his other hand. Since he can't let go of the weapon/his hand the troll makes a strength check to rip off the monks arm. Now that is abusing a feat!


Mike Lindner wrote:
Quote:
If your opponent is ever outside your reach, you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon or pull it out of him.

Since the action required to remove the weapon was already described I read this as "you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon, or pull it out of him [as an immediate action]."

Reversing the cheese: So the monk impales a creature with both hands, let's say a troll for fun. The troll, not liking this, moves away. The monk uses an immediate action to pull out one hand, but does not have another immediate action to remove his other hand. Since he can't let go of the weapon/his hand the troll makes a strength check to rip off the monks arm. Now that is abusing a feat!

The reason i asked in the first place about the action thing, was because its what i originally read too, hence the confusion.

Qadira

Mike Lindner wrote:
Quote:
If your opponent is ever outside your reach, you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon or pull it out of him.

Since the action required to remove the weapon was already described I read this as "you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon, or pull it out of him [as an immediate action]."

Reversing the cheese: So the monk impales a creature with both hands, let's say a troll for fun. The troll, not liking this, moves away. The monk uses an immediate action to pull out one hand, but does not have another immediate action to remove his other hand. Since he can't let go of the weapon/his hand the troll makes a strength check to rip off the monks arm. Now that is abusing a feat!

ummm where did you read immediate action to pull it out? i read free action


Nephril wrote:
ummm where did you read immediate action to pull it out? i read free action

In the text of the feat, the sentence right before the part I quoted.

Quote:
As an immediate action, you can pull your weapon out of your opponent.

Qadira

ah i was going off the part you quoted since that was the piece you were referencing.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Why use the critical if you can use Hamatulatsu, Hamatula Strike and Hamatula Grasp?

I only say: Fist of the south star.

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