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The title says it all: does a scroll with multiple spells count as one item if I want to get one with prestige points? E.g. can I spend 2 prestige points to get one scroll with 5 copies of Scorching Ray?
As far as I know, the default is that each spell has to be bought separately on a scroll and you cannot buy a scroll with multiple spells, whether with gold or PP, because in some odd way that counts as using the banned magic crafting rules. Now, I am not sure if there is a specific, in-print rule that says this, but this is the general view I have gotten over the years here on the forums.
You cant do it for the same reason someone couldnt buy 15 potions worth of CLW in one bottle for 2PP and call it a single item; it's not in the book.
What do you mean "not in the book"? The core rules discuss scrolls of more than one spell.
A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell. The price of a scroll is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 25 gp. If the scroll has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create. Table: Scrolls gives sample prices for scrolls created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster scribing the scroll.
Physical Description: A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8-1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8-1/2 inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each additional spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.
If you can buy a wand with 50 charges, I don't see why you can't buy a scroll with five castings of a single spell.
That's my take on it, but I know some people tend to err on the side of disallowing things.
hogarth,
The default number of spells on a scroll is one, the default number of charges in a wand is 50. I do not see quoting the wand as supporting scrolls with multiple spells, but rather the opposite, as least when it comes to buying things with PP.
Mike,
Since there is some discussion about this still, and there have probably been people doing in the past what hogarth asked, should there be an entry in the FAQ about this to make it official?
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If you can buy a wand with 50 charges, I don't see why you can't buy a scroll with five castings of a single spell.That's my take on it, but I know some people tend to err on the side of disallowing things.
When you see a wand with less than 50 charges on a Chronicle sheet, you will find that the cost is less than what a fully charged wand would cost. Again, as noted in the CRB, you can put more than one spell on a scroll, but if you are paying PP for that scroll, you have to pay PP for each spell on the scroll. You don't get to pay 2 PP to have the same spell scribed multiple times, whether it be 5, 10, or however many you can dream of, for the price of one spell scribed on a scroll.
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If you can buy a wand with 50 charges, I don't see why you can't buy a scroll with five castings of a single spell.That's my take on it, but I know some people tend to err on the side of disallowing things.When you see a wand with less than 50 charges on a Chronicle sheet, you will find that the cost is less than what a fully charged wand would cost. Again, as noted in the CRB, you can put more than one spell on a scroll, but if you are paying PP for that scroll, you have to pay PP for each spell on the scroll. You don't get to pay 2 PP to have the same spell scribed multiple times, whether it be 5, 10, or however many you can dream of, for the price of one spell scribed on a scroll.
I think he more means if it costs 150 gp to scribe a spell, can he pay 2 PA to have a scroll with 5 copies of the same spell on it? It adds up to the 750 gp price limit. I hadn't actually thought to do that, but I rather like the idea. YMMV.
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I think he more means if it costs 150 gp to scribe a spell, can he pay 2 PA to have a scroll with 5 copies of the same spell on it? It adds up to the 750 gp price limit. I hadn't actually thought to do that, but I rather like the idea. YMMV.
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying, Yes, since you can purchase one item equivalent to 750 gp price limit, and as long as the total of the number of spells on the scroll does not exceed that amount, I don't have a problem with it. Sorry for the misunderstanding (that's what I get for replying when I'm dead dog tired - off to bed).
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Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying, Yes, since you can purchase one item equivalent to 750 gp price limit, and as long as the total of the number of spells on the scroll does not exceed that amount, I don't have a problem with it. Sorry for the misunderstanding (that's what I get for replying when I'm dead dog tired - off to bed).
I think he more means if it costs 150 gp to scribe a spell, can he pay 2 PA to have a scroll with 5 copies of the same spell on it? It adds up to the 750 gp price limit. I hadn't actually thought to do that, but I rather like the idea. YMMV.
Thank you, boss! Time to get them initiates working on my scrolls then....because what osiarian libarain *wouldn't* run around with a 5 foot long scroll for the fun of it?
I think he more means if it costs 150 gp to scribe a spell, can he pay 2 PA to have a scroll with 5 copies of the same spell on it? It adds up to the 750 gp price limit. I hadn't actually thought to do that, but I rather like the idea. YMMV.
For context, I was thinking about a thread where someone was asking how you would play a Vow of Poverty monk in PFS. My thought was that for your one valuable item you could rely on a multiple-spell scroll.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying, Yes, since you can purchase one item equivalent to 750 gp price limit, and as long as the total of the number of spells on the scroll does not exceed that amount, I don't have a problem with it. Sorry for the misunderstanding (that's what I get for replying when I'm dead dog tired - off to bed).
I think he more means if it costs 150 gp to scribe a spell, can he pay 2 PA to have a scroll with 5 copies of the same spell on it? It adds up to the 750 gp price limit. I hadn't actually thought to do that, but I rather like the idea. YMMV.
This recently came up, locally:
What about multiple spells on a single scroll that are different spells? Can this be done, be it using PA or gold to purchase them?
It was pointed out that, by doing so, you negate the need to draw multiple scrolls from storage, gaining a move action each round if you have a "selection" of spells that you always want on the scroll.
Also, if you have more than two 1st level spells on a scroll, it becomes an item "worth" more than 50 gold. Would that mean that it wasn't part of the Always Available list?
BTW - sorry if I'm being obtuse on this, or missed it somewhere. Dead-dog tired, I am too...
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Drogon:
I agree on multiscrolls not being on the always available list; but the 2PA=> 750gp favor doesn't use the always available list...
Fearless Leader:
If a character has sufficient Fame to access the retail price of the full selection of spells desired for a multiple-spell (riffle) scroll, would that also be a permissible purchase?
As long as it doesn't exceed the gp limit.
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Ok folks. I've talked to several people about the pros and cons. We are going to limit this to the same spell on a scroll. So, to answer the OP, you can have five copies of scorching ray on one scroll but only that spell. You will not be able to mix and match with different spells on the same scroll. I will FAQ if necessary. That's my final decision. It is a compromise to allow magic users to have a bit more utility without it getting out of hand.
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I'm a little disappointed by this, but that seems reasonable. It would seem that wands are once again much better than scrolls, but that seems to be the way people want the rules to work.
I would appreciate this being on the FAQ.
EDIT: It would seem to me, however, that there's a lot of fear of spellcasters "abusing" scrolls if it were allowed that they have multiple spells on a single scroll. I don't see it as overpowered, personally. I've seen the cyphermage prestige class cited, but if a player wants to prestige in order to cast a scroll at his caster level 1-2 times per day, I don't think that's overpowered; it's certainly not as good as what a full-classed wizard would be able to pull off.
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It's about action economy, not provoking to retrieve a stored scroll, and never having to skip a beat in combat to find *just* the right spell == all while having a crap load of them to choose from. And by "crapload", I mean 60 scrolled spells to choose from at 2nd level.
The "always available" item rule limit prevents these scrolls from being purchased as large multi-spell scroll items. If you can use PP instead, you can scribe 15 1st level spells on one scroll, or 5 2nd level spells.
This is of no great consequence if they have the same spell on it, but if they do not, it can become problematic as it vastly amplifies the power of a well prepared wizard if it is used too often. 8 PA is 60 individual 1st level spells on only 4 scrolls, and so always available at the ready, per round, in combat.
The problem arises due to the way the game handles multiple spells on one scroll. Per RAW, you could put 30 spells on a single scroll. Per RAW, it takes ZERO time to negotiate your way through that scroll if it is already in hand, it is simply part of the standard action to activate the spell. The so-called "multi-spell scroll" or "zip scroll" or "double ended" scroll has three spells or more upon it. Two spells on the scroll does not require double reinforcing rods on both ends of the scroll and is still seen as a "standard" scroll.
So once such a multi-spell scroll with a bajillion spells on it is in hand, the entire library of scribed spells on that scroll are available without spending any movement to do so. Casting from a multi-spell scroll provokes, but the Wizards will always step back to do so -- because he has the movement available -- and will just cast. He didn't have to spend any time retrieving it from a scroll case as he would have had to do if it was an individually spelled scroll, so action economy is still optimized and the Wizard still has enough actions to always be able to take a 5 foot step and read the scroll as a standard. The AOO never happens.
In these cases, the Wizard's casting is optimized and he will not normally provoke.
In many (if not most) home games in 3.5 and Pathfinder, GMs don't allow scrolls to be abused. They require that the Wizard spend some time finding the correct spell within a double ended scroll first (any scroll with more than three spells on it has two rods attached to each end of the parchment per RAW, hence "double ended"). So if its a double ended scroll, you make em dig for the spell as a standard action, then cast it the next round. The Wizard pays a little in action economy for accessing a massively enhanced spell selection. Otherwise, Wizards who use scribe scroll to maximum effect are limitless spellcasters with a VAST assortment of prepared spells via scroll and they won't provoke when using them. The bonded item similarly becomes essentially meaningless as the Wizard has the spell prepped on a scroll already. Opposed schools are meaningless too -- they have the scroll prepped already as a scroll, always at the ready.
When a double-ended scroll is instead moderated through action economy, then typically, the multi-spell scrolls are then used only when absolutely needed within combat. Prepared spells and bonded items are the rule; scrolls the exception. Scrolls with only one or two spells each on them are kept in the "ready scroll case". They can access that diminished selection of scrolled spells as a move and read as a standard. But they can't MOVE 5' and still do both of those things too, so the question or provoking remains a real issue if in combat.
In home games where Wizards start to scribe too many multi-spell scrolls, in addition to imposing the house rule to make them take more time to locate the spell within the scroll, the other possibility is to resort to the rules against making item saves or simply sunder his scroll cases and any scroll in hand with FAR more vigor. So there is a way to control this resource when it gets out of hand, but it is either through resorting to a common house rule, or by reminding the PC he is very vulnerable to sundering (scrolls are incredibly fragile). After all, every combatant can do it. Who cares if the Wizard gets an AOO, just step up and sunder the scroll in hand or their scroll case. You hit it and its almost automatically destroyed. That's the nature of scrolls and scroll cases, for the most part. They have poor hardness and poor hits, too. A scroll has no hardness and one hit. You hit it with anything, it's destroyed.
Obviously, sundering scrolls and scroll cases is basically a declaration of war by the GM and is not likely to be looked upon kindly in PFS play. I would not want to ever do this for the best of all reasons: It's not fun.
But the rule which adds a further action economy hit against zipping through a massive scroll instantly isn't in the RAW, so sundering is the only option available to the GM to counter it if it starts to dominate play. That's not a Good Thing.
The game's design contemplates a penalty on action economy for a vast spell selection when it describes how a scroll case is supposed to be used. You get to put 4 scrolls in one scroll case, and from it you can retrieve one of them per round as a move action. Retrieving it provokes. Using it provokes, too. You can put more scrolls than 4 into a scroll case, but once you do, it takes you a full-round to retrieve the scroll you are looking for.
Accordingly, per RAW, large spell selections are penalized when resorted to in combat (but, importantly, are encouraged for utility use out of combat, where there is no penalty).
Utility spells outside of combat are always available; but in combat, if you rely upon a vast selection of scrolled spells, you take a hit for it in terms of action economy and exposure to AOOs. The scroll case rule wasn't written with the thought of double-ended, multi-spell scrolls being placed in it. It was contemplated as a one spell per scroll deal when it came to increasing the action economy hit.
The same penalty happens if a Wizard uses a bag of holding to carry his or her scrolls. If there was more than the contents of a backpack in the bag of holding, (and there almost always is), the time to retrieve the desired scroll is a full round action.
There IS one important way of obtaining limitless individual scroll use which reduces provoking AOOs through the use of the handy haversack. Optimized Wizards tend to get one early and use it to carry only their scrolls, essentially. The handy haversack will instantly produce the desired scroll as a move action, and it does not provoke to draw it out. Still, if you are in contact with the enemy, you can't withdraw and cast from the scroll without provoking as there is not enough action economy to both draw it out AND step back (and casting from a scroll provokes).
With multi-spell scrolls, Sorcs and Wizards will avoid the handy haversack cost and will have a vast assortment of spells to cast, always at the ready with no hit on action economy. They will never provoke an AOO when using it, as it's in hand and they will just step back. If a GM sunders it, the GM will be viewed as scum or some other negative connotation, and the player is likely to quit the game (or at least, never come back to that GM's table. I'm not sure I would blame the player, either. Sundering really is seen as a declaration of war on the player).
At lower levels, this changes a good thing (lots of rare utility spells) into a practically limitless spell selection with no action economy hit (a bad and potentially spotlight stealing thing). A 2nd level Wizard could easily have 60 1st level spells at the ready on 4 multi-spell scrolls by spending 8 PP, all stored in one scroll case. Worth it? Definitely. There's no house rule to prevent it, and sundering is just a crappy option for a GM to counter with.
So, as the "GM" for PFS, I'm making the call that scrolls with multiple spells are limited to only the one spell per scroll.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It's about action economy, not provoking to retrieve a stored scroll, and never having to skip a beat in combat to find *just* the right spell == all while having a crap load of them to choose from.
Have to admit it: this is why I was sitting quietly in the corner, content with the answers provided. But it's also why I asked what I asked, above. My wizard, who never lifts a finger in combat, would have felt like he'd been handed the keys to the kingdom, had the original statements held up.
As Mergy said: this is fair, justifiable, and makes sense.
Thanks for the clarification.