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Threatened + reach


Rules Questions

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21 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, a Aurochs, Large creature with a 5 foot reach is fighting a troll, large creature with a 10 foot reach. The Aurochs moves into the Trolls threatened range. He then moves another 5 feet to be able to hit the troll.

Does the troll get to take an attack of opportunity for the Aurochs leaving the 10 foot square, or does it not provoke since the Auroch is still within the same square?


So...IF I understood you correctly we have:

AA_TT
Aurochs steps forward (but does NOT take a 5 foot step).
AATT

Yes, this provokes an attack of opportunity.
However, if the Aurochs took a 5 foot step it is fine.

- Gauss


Yep, that would be the situation. Thanks :)


8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.

No, the Aurochs would not take an AoO. Movement only provokes if the creature moves out of a threatened square. Being a large creature the aurochs is still in the initial threatened space when it moves another square forward.


Hmmmm, interesting. I had never looked at that in that fashion when dealing with large characters. Is there any documentation you have to back this? Examples, devs? Ill look for the same. This might even warrant a FAQ if it hasn't ever been dealt with. - Gauss


I don't have any quotes, but I do have a working understanding of the English language.

Provoking attacks of opportunity wrote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

They key word here is out. If you continue forward to meet the troll, there is not one point in your movement that you stop occupying a space that the troll threatens. You may be moving to redistribute mass within the threatened square but not "moving out of".


The problem I have with this is that while yes, you are correct on the english portion, that makes it so that any large charging creature goes right through 10foot reach without provoking attacks of opportunity. Something that will utterly screw many builds. Im just not sure how many people have interpreted the text this way. I surely hadn't. - Gauss


Interesting. I've never considered this before. To my knowledge, we've always played it as provoking, but I honestly think Inconvenience has it right.

Andoran

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Inconvenience wrote:

I don't have any quotes, but I do have a working understanding of the English language.

Provoking attacks of opportunity wrote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
They key word here is out. If you continue forward to meet the troll, there is not one point in your movement that you stop occupying a space that the troll threatens. You may be moving to redistribute mass within the threatened square but not "moving out of".

While you may be right by the english definition of the word, I hardly believe this is RAI. This would mean that a bigger creature can approach a guy with a polearm without provoking while a smaller one could not (despite approaching to the same distance).

The way I've always ruled the provoking from movement was pretty simple: If you are standing in their threatened area, then perform movement that doesn't explicitly deny provoking (such as a 5-ft step), you provoke.

Cheliax

Inconvenience wrote:

I don't have any quotes, but I do have a working understanding of the English language.

Provoking attacks of opportunity wrote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
They key word here is out. If you continue forward to meet the troll, there is not one point in your movement that you stop occupying a space that the troll threatens. You may be moving to redistribute mass within the threatened square but not "moving out of".

Whether he is moving into another threatened square or not, he is still moving out of a threatened square.


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Inconvenience wrote:

I don't have any quotes, but I do have a working understanding of the English language.

Provoking attacks of opportunity wrote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
They key word here is out. If you continue forward to meet the troll, there is not one point in your movement that you stop occupying a space that the troll threatens. You may be moving to redistribute mass within the threatened square but not "moving out of".

While you may be right by the english definition of the word, I hardly believe this is RAI. This would mean that a bigger creature can approach a guy with a polearm without provoking while a smaller one could not (despite approaching to the same distance).

The way I've always ruled the provoking from movement was pretty simple: If you are standing in their threatened area, then perform movement that doesn't explicitly deny provoking (such as a 5-ft step), you provoke.

Huh. I hadn't considered that.

Definitely FAQ-worthy.

*click*


Mergy wrote:
Inconvenience wrote:

I don't have any quotes, but I do have a working understanding of the English language.

Provoking attacks of opportunity wrote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
They key word here is out. If you continue forward to meet the troll, there is not one point in your movement that you stop occupying a space that the troll threatens. You may be moving to redistribute mass within the threatened square but not "moving out of".
Whether he is moving into another threatened square or not, he is still moving out of a threatened square.

Unfortunately Mergy, he isnt. The Aurochs front is moving from 10feet out to 5feet out while his back is moving from 15feet (unthreatened) to 10feet.

The problem that is that by a strict interpretation of the text the move from 10feet to 5 feet does not provoke an AOO since it has not left the 10foot space.

Example:

321TT

The troll is threatening 1 and 2. The aurochs is in 3 and 2. The aurochs moves from 2 to 1 and is now occupying 2 and 1. It hasnt 'moved out' of 2 and as a result does not provoke an AOO due to movement.

However, I have never ran it this way and it appears others are not either. Thus the problem.

- Gauss


He is moving out.

It does not say leave, right?

Even though he has not finished moving out, he is in the act of moving out, and therefore provokes.

The rule does not talk about the state of the square, but the action of the monster. The square does not need to be empty for the aoo to happen.


Tandriniel, it doesn't state this in the RAW. I agree with you he provokes but that is RAI I think rather than RAW. Hence the problem. Until this came up I hadn't ever thought along these lines. - Gauss

Edit:
PRD states: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

Hence the problem, the large creature has not left the threatened square although they have approached the enemy. This bypasses all sorts of reach situations.


This is an interesting take on it. It makes sense. Typically larger creatures have the same reach so this never comes up.

I certainly think as RAW stands, Inconvenience has it right.


Gauss wrote:

Tandriniel, it doesn't state this in the RAW. I agree with you he provokes but that is RAI I think rather than RAW. Hence the problem. Until this came up I hadn't ever thought along these lines. - Gauss

Edit:
PRD states: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

Hence the problem, the large creature has not left the threatened square although they have approached the enemy. This bypasses all sorts of reach situations.

I am not sure I was able to convey my argument. "moving out" does not mean that he has left the square. It is imperfectum, not a completed act ("the girlfriend was moving out of the house when he came home").

Therefore it is irelevant whether the monster still has a part of its body in the square. It has comenced the act of leaving the square, it is moving out, and is therefore AOO-candidate (given that it is moving into another square that is threatned).

Don't look at the square, the object, look at the subject, who is moving. It says nothing about leaving, which is being read into it.


Tandriniel wrote:
Therefore it is irelevant whether the monster still has a part of its body in the square. It has comenced the act of leaving the square, it is moving out, and is therefore AOO-candidate (given that it is moving into another square that is threatned).

Moving from a square that is threatened to a square that is not threatened still provokes. You don't have to move to another threatened square.


Inconvenience wrote:

I don't have any quotes, but I do have a working understanding of the English language.

Provoking attacks of opportunity wrote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
They key word here is out. If you continue forward to meet the troll, there is not one point in your movement that you stop occupying a space that the troll threatens. You may be moving to redistribute mass within the threatened square but not "moving out of".

Both squares are threatened squares. You move out of on to get into another therefore you provoke.


Trista1986, that is how I thought it worked too. But in the case of a large creature it has not moved out of a square, it is still in said square. It has not left a threatened square despite the movement. Hence the need for a FAQ on this. - Gauss


Tarantula wrote:
Tandriniel wrote:
Therefore it is irelevant whether the monster still has a part of its body in the square. It has comenced the act of leaving the square, it is moving out, and is therefore AOO-candidate (given that it is moving into another square that is threatned).
Moving from a square that is threatened to a square that is not threatened still provokes. You don't have to move to another threatened square.

Yes of course... Sorry :-)


*puts on devil's advocate hat*

Two medium creatures don't provoke from each other when they approach to do battle.

So why should two large creatures?

Why should a large creature be afraid of the medium fellow with the pike when he is USED to fighting big creatures with reach.

It may well be the INTENT that they don't provoke in the ascribed situation as well as the RAW.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Gimme that blasted hat.

Ravingdork wrote:
Two medium creatures don't provoke from each other when they approach to do battle.

Two medium creatures OF EQUAL REACH. If one of those two medium creatures has a reach weapon, it's a different story.

Ravingdork wrote:
So why should two large creatures?

Two large creatures of EQUAL REACH don't provoke from each other if they stop as soon as they're within reach under either interpretation.

Ravingdork wrote:
Why should a large creature be afraid of the medium fellow with the pike when he is USED to fighting big creatures with reach.

Only when the large fellow has less reach or for some other reason decides to close within the other fellow's reach.

Ravingdork wrote:
It may well be the INTENT that they don't provoke in the ascribed situation as well as the RAW.

I doubt that very much.


Slim, a Large creature with a reach weapon can hit 15' and 20' away but not 5' and 10' away. So yes, a large creature approaching a different large creature with a reach weapon will provoke anyway.


Ravingdork wrote:

*puts on devil's advocate hat*

Two medium creatures don't provoke from each other when they approach to do battle.

So why should two large creatures?

Why should a large creature be afraid of the medium fellow with the pike when he is USED to fighting big creatures with reach.

It may well be the INTENT that they don't provoke in the ascribed situation as well as the RAW.

Personally I think that the AOO system is a little farfetched to realism. Would the Ape honestly attack an approaching man as soon as he stepped closer then 10 feet? Likely not. Also a Giant dragon with say 30 foot reach, with combat expertise would look pretty silly flailing all of his limbs getting off 5 AOOs a turn on everyone charging him, all in a 6 second window...


Alot of D&D/Pathfinder is farfetched to realism. The fact remains that by RAW a large creature is allowed to move closer while only the front of him is threatened without provoking an AOO. This is just an unfortunate wording. Personally, I think alot the examples are geared towards small/medium players and do not take into account large vs large etc.

- Gauss


I. AM. The LAW! the rules are there to do the best to balance. what sounds right to you, then house rule it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Inconvenience wrote:

I don't have any quotes, but I do have a working understanding of the English language.

Provoking attacks of opportunity wrote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
They key word here is out. If you continue forward to meet the troll, there is not one point in your movement that you stop occupying a space that the troll threatens. You may be moving to redistribute mass within the threatened square but not "moving out of".

He is moving out of the threatened square. Part of the Auroch's body moves out of the threatened square, while part moves in. Just because the creature is "large" doesn't mean part of his body isn't moving out of a threatened square.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Shadowmage75: your statement only applies to those people who CAN houserule. That doesn't apply to PFS (who cannot houserule) or to those people who try to follow RAW faithfully. - Gauss


1 person marked this as a favorite.

definitely provkes an AoO.

The rules are a bit different because large creatures occupy multiple spaces, so part of them would in fact move out of the threatened squares to reach the closer squares, even if the back half of the creatures would just be entering the threatened area.

It is illogical to suggest that the auroch moved and got closer but did not move at all when regarding the threatend area. You can't simultaneously move and not move. Its binary.

Did it move? Yes. Is the area it was occupying (even partially) considered threatened? Yes. Did it move out of a threatened square? Yes. That is how it became closer to the threatening creature.

This is the trade off of being of a larger size, you present more area to attack.


I suppose another question about movement and attacks of opportunity from me.

So, the situation. a Tiny or small creature, call it... a reduced person gnome is fighting a fighter with combat reflexes.

The tiny creature needs to enter the fighters square in order to attack because of its tiny reach of 0. This movement into the square provokes.
Does this provoke because the tiny creature is moving into the occupied square, or does it provoke because the tiny creature is leaving the threatened square?

Or does the fighter with Combat reflexes get two attacks of opportunity against the tiny gnome. 1 for the tiny creature entering his square, and a 2nd for the tiny creature leaving a threatened square?


Stikye wrote:

The tiny creature needs to enter the fighters square in order to attack because of its tiny reach of 0. This movement into the square provokes.

Does this provoke because the tiny creature is moving into the occupied square, or does it provoke because the tiny creature is leaving the threatened square?

Leaving the square. If it was entering the threatened square every Player would get an AoO vs anyone that came adjacent to them and creatures with reach would be insane. Here's the rules text:

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

The fighter gets 1 AoO per attack of the Gnome until he has exhausted his attacks of opportunity for that round.


stynkk wrote:
It is illogical to suggest that the auroch moved and got closer but did not move at all when regarding the threatend area. You can't simultaneously move and not move. Its binary.

Please give me a little leeway on this one, it is to prove a point, not to suggest the following should be a rule.

If the above quote is followed to its logical end, an AoO is provoked any time any part of a creature leaves any square they are in, even if it is into another square they already occupied. If this is held, wouldn't a large creature provoke if they turned around? Wouldn't they leave four squares and enter four squares?

I always played that the move does provoke, but this thread is not so cut and dry. It does add some question to what I thought was very cut and dry.


Komoda wrote:
stynkk wrote:
It is illogical to suggest that the auroch moved and got closer but did not move at all when regarding the threatend area. You can't simultaneously move and not move. Its binary.

Please give me a little leeway on this one, it is to prove a point, not to suggest the following should be a rule.

If the above quote is followed to its logical end, an AoO is provoked any time any part of a creature leaves any square they are in, even if it is into another square they already occupied. If this is held, wouldn't a large creature provoke if they turned around? Wouldn't they leave four squares and enter four squares?

I always played that the move does provoke, but this thread is not so cut and dry. It does add some question to what I thought was very cut and dry.

Facing does not exist.


Ravingdork wrote:

*puts on devil's advocate hat*

Two medium creatures don't provoke from each other when they approach to do battle.

So why should two large creatures?

Why should a large creature be afraid of the medium fellow with the pike when he is USED to fighting big creatures with reach.

It may well be the INTENT that they don't provoke in the ascribed situation as well as the RAW.

You're correct to a certain point.

Two medium creatures don't provoke if they both got the same reach.

Two large creatures don't provoke if they have the same reach. Lets say 2 giants, both 10 ft reach, can approach each other to do battle without provoking.
Why? Not because of some weird reading of the rules that when I move forward but my butt is still in the square that counts as not moving, but for a very simple reason:
Those 2 giants will not get into adjacent squares. They stand 10 ft apart from another and hit with their increased reach.

They know if they step any closer they get hit by an AoO, so they don't.
It's the same with medium creatures. They move into adjacent squares because they have to. If one of them would decide to move into the enemies square now, closer than he has to, he'd get hit by an AoO

The same is the case for a giant fighting a polearm medium creature. They just stand 10ft from one another and hit.

However this example features an aurochs instead of a giant and those have only 5 ft range. They're not the same size. Large (tall) vs Large (long).
So among other things the aurochs is not used to fighting enemies that big and with that much reach.

So yes, the aurochs provokes for that movement.

Also look from it from a logical PoV: A large creature is larger than a medium one (obviously), and being easier to see and hit and all that. Now both take a step towards you, and you can only hit the smaller one of them?

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stikye wrote:

So, a Aurochs, Large creature with a 5 foot reach is fighting a troll, large creature with a 10 foot reach. The Aurochs moves into the Trolls threatened range. He then moves another 5 feet to be able to hit the troll.

Does the troll get to take an attack of opportunity for the Aurochs leaving the 10 foot square, or does it not provoke since the Auroch is still within the same square?

IF he does this in the same turn, yes. You can't take a 5 foot adjustment and a regular move in the same combat sequence.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Stikye wrote:

So, a Aurochs, Large creature with a 5 foot reach is fighting a troll, large creature with a 10 foot reach. The Aurochs moves into the Trolls threatened range. He then moves another 5 feet to be able to hit the troll.

Does the troll get to take an attack of opportunity for the Aurochs leaving the 10 foot square, or does it not provoke since the Auroch is still within the same square?

IF he does this in the same turn, yes. You can't take a 5 foot adjustment and a regular move in the same combat sequence.

I think he meant it as the same action, just finishing its movement.


yeah, I meant it as not 5 foot stepping, since that would negate the whole argument.


Komoda wrote:

If the above quote is followed to its logical end, an AoO is provoked any time any part of a creature leaves any square they are in, even if it is into another square they already occupied. If this is held, wouldn't a large creature provoke if they turned around? Wouldn't they leave four squares and enter four squares?

I always played that the move does provoke, but this thread is not so cut and dry. It does add some question to what I thought was very cut and dry.

No the entire creature has to move, as WWWW stated there is no facing in Pathfinder, so turning around can be achieved in your squares through player/gm description without actually moving in the mechanical sense.

Here's the rule on tiny creatures, it's not exactly what I thought since it doesn't appear to be based on the movement rule, but the result is the same so thank you Kodama for inspiring me to research this a little more. :) A tiny creature entering a square to attack is a special case, which makes sense because there's a rule that a creature can't end its movement in an occupied square.

PRD - Core - Combat - Big and Little Creatures in Combat wrote:
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.

This should be a good answer for Stikye, it covers the situation of approaching a large creature with natural reach like a Troll.

PRD - Core - Combat - Big and Little Creatures in Combat - Large, Huge, Gargantuan and Colossal Creatures wrote:
Unlike when someone uses a reach weapon, a creature with greater than normal natural reach (more than 5 feet) still threatens squares adjacent to it. A creature with greater than normal natural reach usually gets an attack of opportunity against you if you approach it, because you must enter and move within the range of its reach before you can attack it. This attack of opportunity is not provoked if you take a 5-foot step.


So, does that mean entering an occupied square provokes the attack of opportunity for the tiny and smaller creatures, or does that mean that they present two opportunities. one for leaving the threatened square , and one for entering the occupied square?

Stynkk already answered this one, but his bold above seems to suggest that it's not the leaving the threatened square, but entering the occupied square that provokes for tiny and smaller creatures.


Stikye wrote:
So, does that mean entering an occupied square provokes the attack of opportunity for the tiny and smaller creatures, or does that mean that they present two opportunities. one for leaving the threatened square , and one for entering the occupied square?

Its a special circumstance that provokes and has nothing to do with the movement part of AoOs, which I incorrectly cited earlier in an effort to forward my point, my apologies for the confusion.

Based on the text regarding small creatures, a tiny creature provokes when it enters the square of another creature to attack it in melee. This occurs each time the creature attackd.

This movement is "special" because it occurs each time a creature attacks with a melee attack with a reach of 0ft, is made in tandem with the attack and is not associated with a move action or 5 foot step. Thus it is outside the normal rules for AoOs.


So the tiny creature 10 feet away from the anything with combat reflexes and a dex bonus would take 2 attacks of opportunity. 1 for leaving the threatened square, and 1 for entering the occupied square? Good to know, I think.


Stikye wrote:
So the tiny creature 10 feet away from the anything with combat reflexes and a dex bonus would take 2 attacks of opportunity. 1 for leaving the threatened square, and 1 for entering the occupied square? Good to know, I think.

Yes, that would be the case. To the best of my understanding.


Core Rulebook page 193:
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature
can move into or through an occupied square. The creature
provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

The tiny or smaller creature is not required to exit the space occupied by another creature. This means that the creature moves into the space, attacks, and stays there. There is only the single AOO for moving into the space. Additionally, there can only make one AOO for movement regardless of how many squares the target moves through.

Core rulebook page 180:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Example:
Round 1: Reduced Halfling (tiny size) charges enlarged sword wielding fighter with combat reflexes from 15feet away. Fighter makes an attack of opportunity when Halfling moves from 10feet to 5feet. Fighter cannot make an attack of opportunity when halfling moves from 5feet to 0feet because he already did so for the previous movement. Halfling attacks fighter.

Round 2: fighter takes a 5foot step and attacks halfling. Halfling takes a 5foot step into the fighter's square and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. (I see nothing to prevent tiny and smaller creatures from making 5foot steps but if Im missing something please point it out.)

Round 3 fighter moves 10 feet, halfling cannot make an attack of opportunity (reach0) and on the halflings turn he has to move 10feet and thus provokes an attack of opportunity when he goes from 5feet to 0feet.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:


The tiny or smaller creature is not required to exit the space occupied by another creature. This means that the creature moves into the space, attacks, and stays there. There is only the single AOO for moving into the space. Additionally, there can only make one AOO for movement regardless of how many squares the target moves through.

4 tiny creatures may occupy a single 5 foot square, if it already has another creature of a different size inside it, this section of the rules no longer applies. Since it doesn't deal with a medium and tiny character interacting, only 4 tiny ones.

PRD - Core - Combat - Movement, Position and Distance - Moving Through a Square wrote:
Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:
PRD - Core - Combat - Movement, Position and Distance - Moving Through a Square wrote:
Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

But, three lines later:

PRD - Core - Combat - Movement, Position and Distance - Moving Through a Square wrote:
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square.

This explicitly allows movement into an occupied square, as well as moving through the square as would otherwise be required.

If the tiny creature were required to end its move out of the opponent's space it would not be able to melee attack, as it does not have the reach necessary to do so.


JohnF wrote:
If the tiny creature were required to end its move out of the opponent's space it would not be able to melee attack, as it does not have the reach necessary to do so.

I'm not following. You move in, attack and at the end must move out because the tiny creature can't end its turn occupying an already occupied square.

The moving in to the occupied square has to be associated with each attack for a creature with 0ft reach. Otherwise why wouldn't a tiny creature just 5ft step into the occupied square and full attack? I believe this is because if they did, the action would be over and they'd be pushed back out due to the movement rules before the full attack could be achieved..

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:
JohnF wrote:
If the tiny creature were required to end its move out of the opponent's space it would not be able to melee attack, as it does not have the reach necessary to do so.
I'm not following. You move in, attack and at the end must move out because the tiny creature can't end its turn occupying an already occupied square.

You can't do that. You can attack before or after a move, but in general you can't attack part-way through your move action.

If the tiny creature started off outside the opponent's square it can move (or perhaps, 5' step) into the square and attack. But at this point it has no movement left.

It remains in the square; the specific ability of a tiny creature to move into an occupied square overrides the general-case rule of not being able to end your move in an occupied square.

Stynkk wrote:
The moving in to the occupied square has to be associated with each attack for a creature with 0ft reach. Otherwise why wouldn't a tiny creature just 5ft step into the occupied square and full attack?

What's wrong with that? Once a tiny creature has closed to melee range, just like any other combatant, it can full attack on subsequent turns. Forcing it to move out also opens it up to an attack of opportunity every round when it moves either into or out of the opponent's square; I don't for one minute believe that is what is supposed to happen.


What JohnF is saying is what I also understand. If a tiny creature cannot occupy the same space as a larger creature then it can never get a full attack action which many tiny creatures are eligible for. The RAW supports a tiny or smaller creature moving into a larger creatures space and then staying there. It says nothing to the effect that it must move out of that space.

- Gauss

Qadira

yeah, the Aurochs would provoke an attack of opportunity.

Quote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

the rules don't say that all of your squares have to leave a threatened square, just that moving out of a threatened square provokes. in the case of the Aurochs, with positioning at 3&2, moving to 2&1, his front two squares at 2 are leaving the troll's threatened squares. so as half of the Aurochs leaves squares threatened by the troll, the troll gets an attack of opportunity.

321TT
321TT

Qadira

Gauss wrote:

What JohnF is saying is what I also understand. If a tiny creature cannot occupy the same space as a larger creature then it can never get a full attack action which many tiny creatures are eligible for. The RAW supports a tiny or smaller creature moving into a larger creatures space and then staying there. It says nothing to the effect that it must move out of that space.

- Gauss

well, the rules do say you can't end your movement in another creature's square unless its helpless. RAW, I guess if Tiny was adjacent at the start of its turn to Large, Tiny could 5 ft. in, if it's allowed 5 ft steps, and take a full attack. Tiny would still provoke, not from the 5 ft. adjustment, but from entering Large's square. Tiny would then accidentally end its movement in an illegal square and be pushed back to the last legal square it was in: adjacent to Large.

Quote:
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.

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