stuffSeriously man. It's about reading comprehension. I don't need to infer anything. I supplied you with all the relevant quotation from the PRD. Choose to read it however you want but don't preach about things being wrong when you're the one misreading them.
Telling me that I'm inferring judgment because it doesn't specifically state which class feature is being replaced is ridiculous. Telling me that Weapon and Armor Proficiency doesn't replace Weapon and Armor Proficiency.... please.... reading comprehension. Telling me that the guy who created the class saw the RAI to go one way and then it's printed another way means the guys that make the decisions didn't care about what the class designer's opinion on it was.
And please link people to the PRD for the purpose of citing examples. The SRD means nothing.
Also I think it's amusing that the rules state that archetypes replace standard class abilities and you seem to think they don't. It's been in a FAQ before stating that like named class abilities replace like named class abilities. When there is no name overlap they do not replace the other.
Keep on clinging to that guy who designed the class though. It's a valid argument when the guy that said he created it and his idea on RAI means nothing. Good luck with your argument.
EDIT: And again... please read, understand, and recheck your facts. It's not me referencing elemental fist. It's the example the game designers gave us to understand how archetypes work. It's in the PRD. Please read it.
Sigh… ironic that you're talking about reading comprehension when you so plainly haven't understood what I wrote. It's pretty clear that I was aware that elemental fist was the example the PRD quoted. In fact, that was the very POINT I was making. Please read it again. If you feel I haven't been sufficiently clear on anything, I'm always willing to explain.
EDIT: One thing about your post intrigued me: where is this faq entry on like named abilities replacing each other? If that faq entry exists, then I'm perfectly willing to retract my argument. Otherwise, please don't presume to condescend to me about reading comprehension.
EDIT #2: Just so we're clear, in your opinion the Cad is not proficient in any weapons or armour, correct? After all, it would seem his weapon and armour proficiency entry replaces the fighter entry in its entirety. The Cad entry doesn't mention anything about being proficient with anything, and we can't refer to the fighter entry because that's been replaced. Do you see where I'm going with this?
Ok, I just did a search through the Official FAQs for:
1) Advanced Player's guide
2) Ultimate Magic
3) Ultimate Combat
Unless it's located elsewhere (unlikely), the mysterious faq entry you referenced does not actually exist.
If I've somehow missed something, please point it out to me.
stuffSeriously kid. There's just as many archetypes that don't say anything about replacing abilities as there are those that say which they replace. There's several threads on this about every class and archetype out there.
No, I don't remember the thread where the name replacing was discussed but I stumbled on it one day on here. Try searching for it. There's a feature for that. I don't think the board archetype replaced it since the name isn't the same.
The CAD is clearly one of the examples where the class feature is altered or the text makes no sense. There's several more archetypes that are like this. There's still several archetypes that replace things that aren't called out that way. Even one already given in this thread. But I'm sure you chose to ignore that post for the point of your argument at least.
Ok, so I just did a search through Sean K Reynold's and Jason Bulmahn's ENTIRE post history for the word "archetype". It returned surprisingly few results. 5 pages for Sean, most of which dealt with non rules stuff (archetype creation contests, etc.), and only a handful of posts for Jason.
It only took me about 10 minutes to go through it all, and while I found lots of other really cool stuff I hadn't previously considered, I found NOTHING that resembled the post you claim exists. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that they're the only people who post on the forums whose rulings carry any weight…
As for your argument about the Cad, that's a very arbitrary distinction to make. I could easily make the same argument about the Sohei if I wanted to. You aren't actually basing your distinction on any objective fact, you're basing it entirely on intuition and conjecture, which was MY POINT TO BEGIN WITH. It seems intuitively obvious to you that that's how it SHOULD work, but you aren't stepping back and noticing the gaps in reasoning that you're instinctively papering over without reference to RAW.
Anyways, that's the last post from me on this subject for the time being. Have a good night!
EDIT: At least Name Violation, my other apparent nemesis in this argument, would take the logically consistent, if absurd, position that per RAW, the Cad is in fact completely non-proficient in anything.
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Civility is underrated. An affect of the anonymous nature of the internet.
I agree. This RAW arguement has gotten out of hand, and isn't really worth reading by anyone due to its negativity.
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For my money, Zen archer is a better archer than sohei due to the bonus feats. Rapid Shot + flurry + Deadly Aim and you're looking at -6 to all attacks at the level at which you can first do a sohei bow flurry. Sounds like a flurry of misses. ZA gets enough bonus feats to take every archery related feat you'd ever want to take, with the exceptions of Rapid Shot and Manyshot, which they can't use anyways, plus they get free Weapon Focus/Specialization, which trumps the attack and damage bonus from sohei weapon training until sohei 12 or so. Also ZA's are kiting masters since they retain full monk speed.
For my money, Zen archer is a better archer than sohei due to the bonus feats. Rapid Shot + flurry + Deadly Aim and you're looking at -6 to all attacks at the level at which you can first do a sohei bow flurry. Sounds like a flurry of misses. ZA gets enough bonus feats to take every archery related feat you'd ever want to take, with the exceptions of Rapid Shot and Manyshot, which they can't use anyways, plus they get free Weapon Focus/Specialization, which trumps the attack and damage bonus from sohei weapon training until sohei 12 or so. Also ZA's are kiting masters since they retain full monk speed.
I was thinking this might be true, but wasn't sure. Gloves of Dueling are something ZA will not benefit from but Sohei will. I believe that at lower levels ZA will trump Sohei in every way, but what about higher levels? There is possibly a break point where Sohei comes out ahead.
Mort - I may be confusing you with someone else, if so I apologize.
One thing this thread has taught me: you can't win an argument against the internet. For every person you successfully convince of your point of view, a new one will spring up who hasn't read the whole thread. Mort, you're absolutely right. Jodokai, please read the whole thread, including the link to Jason Bulmahn's response in which he specifically acknowledges that the intent behind the zen archer violates the rules, and that the zen archer as written is broken.
EDIT: And the monk can already flurry with a ranged weapon anyways. It's called the shuriken, and you don't need to pick Zen Archer to do it. The text you quoted, Jodokai, is absolutely meaningless and redundant, as the basic flurry of blows is not restricted to melee attacks. It's only restricted to monk weapons, most of which happen to be melee, but one of which (the shuriken) is a ranged weapon.
Bardic Dave - Your problem is that you have too much information. As much as I hate this argument, you need to forget most of that thread about what their intentions were. The only reason I'm saying that in this particular instance is because the Devs acknowledge there are issues that need looking into and we don't know how that is going to play out. Based on that we have to go with what we know. What we know is that Flurry of Blows works like Two-Weapon Fighting. We know you can't use a bow with two-weapon fighting. Zen Archer has a class ability that says you can. If the devs intended it to work that way or not is irrelevant at this point until they come out with something official.
After reading Sohei, the same thing applies to that class also. As of right now, nothing has changed.
To give you another example, normally a Gnome can't turn into a Polar Bear, but if they take Druid, there is a class ability that allows it. Or if you think that's going to far: Full Plate has an armor check penalty of -6, a fighter has a class ability to reduce that.
These are all exceptions to the rules given by class abilities. as it stands right now before the devs have made any final decisions, everything is exactly the same, regardless of what was intended.
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Break point might be at 12th, when your weapon training increases, or when you have high enough WBL to reasonably afford gloves of dueling. However, sohei will always be wanting one more feat, and ZA benefits greatly from not needing prerequisites for archery bonus feats--the best of which have steep prerequisites. It takes about 4 feats to be "good" at archery (PBS, Precise, Rapid, Deadly Aim), and many, many more to be brilliant at it.
Feat comparison at different levels:
Sohei
H Point Blank Shot
B ?
1 Precise Shot
B ?
3 Rapid Shot
5 Deadly Aim
B ?
7 Weapon Focus?
9 Manyshot
B ?
11 Clustered Shots
13 Snap Shot
B ?
15 Improved Critical
17 Improved Precise Shot
ZA
H Point Blank Shot
1 Deadly Aim
B Precise Shot
B Dodge? Far Shot? Deflect Arrows?
Weapon Focus
3 ?
Point Blank Master
5 ?
B Improved Precise Shot
Weapon Specialization
7 ?
9 Clustered Shots
B Improved Critical
11 ?
13 ?
B Pinpoint Targeting
15 ?
17 ?
If I were trying to run a DPR comparison between ZA and sohei, I'd run it at 6th and 12th. By 6th a ZA should be rocking, but a sohei's just getting spun up. By 12th, the sohei's advantages should become clearer, although the ZA's feat advantage could narrow the gap considerably.
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Monk:
"You do not gain armor proficiency. You can not flurry in armor."
Sohei:
"You gain Light armor proficiency."
Wishful thinker:
"This must mean I can flurry in armor."
Classy.
Alternative class features that replace others read "This replaces...". Period. No interpretation necessary.
[Sohei vs Zen Archer analysis]
The standard "Better-than-Zen" Archer Sohei isn't actually a straight Sohei, but Sohei mixed with Fighter (and possibly some Cavalier, Paladin, or Ranger). You switch over at 6 or 8. The Fighter levels let the Sohei catch up in feats, and starts giving faster Weapon Training progression (I'm not positive they stack, but I would certainly think you can flurry with anything the Fighter gets). 4 levels of Luring Cavalier + Horse Master will also let them take advantage of the mounted combat options they get and pick up Far Challenge, though I don't think this will help their raw damage more than stacking up more Fighter levels.
But your analysis is spot on anyway. The Sohei isn't going to be great to start, but at higher levels (I would think) it starts edging out the competition. Maybe not a great choice to start with at level 1, but very nice at mid to high levels.
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My personal feelings on the "archer turret" sohei are that I couldn't stand to suck for 5+ levels. If I were starting at high level for a one-off or building an NPC it'd be more attractive. ZA works right out of the box, levels 1-20, if you want an arrow storming monk archer. Plus you wind up with plenty of feat slots left over for other things--like Snake Style + Skill Focus: Sense Motive. Or Scorpion Style for more kitey goodness. Or Extra Ki.
(A few additions & major snipping from me)
Sohei
15 Improved Critical
17 Improved Precise ShotZA
(6) B Improved Precise Shot
(10) B Improved Critical
It's hard to model the huge benefit that is improved precise shot. At higher levels it can be mostly mitigated by seeking, but that wealth hit for adding that to an already tricked out bow is large... to the point that having 20 or so seeking arrows is potentially the 'solution' until 17th for the sohei.
Being on these boards for awhile, I've noticed comments that make me think there is a significant number of people that don't use battle maps and mini's (or counters). Comments like AoO will rare come up for archers (and spell casters), just 5' step away.
Well when I play we use minis and maps, and AoO's come up all the time. In a 4 person group, I always have to maneuver around people so the baddie doesn't get the 2-8 AC bump from cover, not to mention difficult terrain. If you don't use minis, the huge benefit of Improved Precise Shot at 6th level is minimized. You just tell the GM "Well I take a 5' step so they aren't in my way". If you invaldate some of the Zen Archer's biggest draws, like immune from AoO's at 3rd level, and Improved Precise Shot 5 levels early, it starts to look like a less attractive option. This is why I think Sohei's are so loved.
Civility is underrated. An affect of the anonymous nature of the internet.I agree. This RAW arguement has gotten out of hand, and isn't really worth reading by anyone due to its negativity.
I also agree. I hope my actions didn't come across as uncivil to anyone. If so, I apologize. My intent was to phrase my replies in as neutral and civil a tone I could muster (though I wouldn't say the same for my opponent). If I failed at that, then I'm sorry.
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My personal feelings on the "archer turret" sohei are that I couldn't stand to suck for 5+ levels. If I were starting at high level for a one-off or building an NPC it'd be more attractive. ZA works right out of the box, levels 1-20, if you want an arrow storming monk archer. Plus you wind up with plenty of feat slots left over for other things--like Snake Style + Skill Focus: Sense Motive. Or Scorpion Style for more kitey goodness. Or Extra Ki.
you have a very scewed idea of what the sohei is at low levels. seeing as the sohei can wear armor and rapis shot, you can completely ignore wis if you choose to, throw your point into dex and have a better ac then the zen archer would. then assuming you're playing a human, uyou would be able to take rapis shot at level 1. so based on that at levels 1-6 you would be better in combat then the zen archer.
better ac, better to hit, and once 6th level comes around better damage. now if you want to be technical, a sohei dosent need to flurry + rapid for a -4, they can choose when to. not to mention that at 9th level you can skip rapid and use many+flurry+ki point for more attacks with the same to hit. or use rapid many get the same number of attacks, with a better to hit.
sohei is a bettr class until they decide to errata the text of the class.
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At levels 1-5, a sohei archer isn't any better than any other mid-BAB class archer. A level 5 cleric can do archery just as well as a level 5 sohei. It isn't until level 6 that they get *any* advantage over a ZA other than light armor proficiency, which if you're playing a high-Dex monk, you're probably already OK with that.
Also a sohei doesn't have a better attack bonus than a ZA--quite the contrary. Level 5 sohei BA +3 -2 for Rapid Shot = +1/+1. Level 5 ZA flurry BA +5 -2 for flurry +1 for Weapon Focus = +4/+4. And if the human sohei's taking Rapid Shot at level 1, he isn't taking Precise Shot at level 1, which means he's going to have another -4 to hit most of the time. Both sohei and ZA can ignore Wis and focus on Dex so ability scores don't enter into it.
I am not one of the DPR guys but this is really making me want to do some DPR comparisons just to show that sohei flurry+rapid+manyshot isn't quite as overwhelming as some folks think.
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i dont know where to bgin...
i never mentioned dpr, im talking about potential attacks. at level 5
my sohei can have 3 main scores + an ok wis. your character has to have a high dex to hit at 1-5 then a high wis at 6-20.
so you need dex wis con and strength whikle the sohei can forget wis and build similar to a fighter in stats while still having a better ac.
in a 20 point buy, assuming i was min maxing, i could have a 14 str, 14 con, 19dex (+2 human) with a 10wis 10int 7 cha.
you couldnt do this. so my level 1 sohei (rich parents trait) can have a +2 MCLB and a chain shirt. making his ac at 1 an 18, dip fighter at 2 for a buckler and now my ac is 19. my to hit at level 1 would be something near +5 then +3 when rapid shotting, which would be the same as yours. at 5 i would have to build it to show you that you are wrong, but im not trying to force you to see that the sohei is as good, or better then the zen archer. but it is a better archetype until they decide to fix it.
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Also, this was all changed by the recent flurry "clarification." Now flurry is impossible with bows, or making all attacks with any single two handed weapon, causing the Sohei to be less awesome and the Zen Archer to be totally nonfunctional. But again, as the clarification seems to be ignored by many people, this may or may not be an issue for your individual group.
So this RAW no longer applies? I must be late to the party, because this seems to spell it out pretty clearly:
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating.
A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.
If I tell you explicitly that you ARE allowed to wear a yellow cloak, there's no real way to confuse that for NOT being allowed to wear a yellow cloak...
If I tell you explicitly that you ARE allowed to wear a yellow cloak, there's no real way to confuse that for NOT being allowed to wear a yellow cloak...
I don't ask this to be rude, but did you read the whole thread? I answered a very similar question earlier, and I'm not sure what part wasn't conveyed correctly, or that you disagree with.
To continue with your specific example, the regular monk would (after clarification) be saying "You cannot wear a cloak." The Zen Archer, on the other hand, is saying "Unlike normal, you are allowed to wear yellow." An article of clothing being yellow has nothing to do with being a cloak, so doesn't address the situation. Removing a prohibition on yellow doesn't remove a separate prohibition on cloaks, and that yellow cloak would still be forbidden.
In game terms, the Zen Archer's issue is not attacking with a ranged weapon. There are a few ranged weapons you can already flurry with, like Shurikens and Wushu Darts. The issue is that this is a two handed weapon, which the clarification prohibits using for all of one's attacks. Based on the clarification, one would need to wield two bows to gain any benefit. As this is nearly impossible for normal characters, the archetype has a problem. There is no specific rule overriding the general "one weapon can only have 1/2 of the attacks" rule, only overriding the requirement that flurry be done with monk weapons. This was enough until the clarification, which added an extra restriction that wasn't known before, and created this issue.
You are pretty much right, Benly. I should probably emphasize "single weapon" more than "two handed weapon." However, since the Zen Archer also prohibits the use of unarmed strikes or other monk weapons for a flurry, you won't be able to pull of a kick/shoot combo. Dual bows would be the only option currently.
Khrysaor, I do not agree with your assessment. The archetype says "You can do X, despite Y." However, X is still prohibited by Z. Being able to include a bow in a Flurry of Blows is not the same as being able to use a bow for all attacks, which is what the clarification changed. I fully understand that specific overrides general, however the specific point here only addresses one aspect of the general. You still have the theoretical option of using flurry, and only taking the main hand attacks. The extra BaB would even grant a slight bonus to Deadly Aim and attack. It just isn't a great choice if you don't get the extra shots. This is obviously not what was intended, which is why this is one of the problems created by the clarification. Quoting the "(even though it is a ranged weapon)" line repeatedly won't change that.
Khrysaor, I do not agree with your assessment. The archetype says "You can do X, despite Y." However, X is still prohibited by Z.
Wait stop here. Not despite Y, just put a period after the X, and all our problems are solved.
The way your "opponents" and I are reading it, the book says "You can do X", to us that seems pretty straight forward. It doesn't matter how many letters you add or how many rules it breaks. The book says "It can do X". Normally you can't do X because of A-F, and M,O,P. "It can do X" doesn't get rid of just one of those rules, it says you can break them all.
Basically what you're doing is arguing with the rule book:
1. The book says a Zen Archer can Flurry with a bow.
2. A Zen Archer can't flurry with unarmed strikes.
Your conclusion is that number 1 (which is a rule in the book) is wrong because of number 2. Our conclusion is that it works the same as always because of number 2. Remember this is a clarification. The rules have always been this way, even when the Zen Archer was designed (again, you have to forget about that thread where they reveal too much). The Zen Archer Archetype had to take that rule into consideration when it was designed. They had to have known about it when the wrote 1, so 2 cannot invalidate 1.
Do we know that the Zen Archer is a mistake? Yup, we read the thread. Does that make it official? Nope, it works as written until someone changes it.
The way your "opponents" and I are reading it, the book says "You can do X", to us that seems pretty straight forward. It doesn't matter how many letters you add or how many rules it breaks. The book says "It can do X". Normally you can't do X because of A-F, and M,O,P. "It can do X" doesn't get rid of just one of those rules, it says you can break them all.
I think you might be overstating things with "you can break them all." Nobody would argue, say, that the Zen Archer gets to flurry in armor, or while carrying a heavy load. It only lets you break the rules that it specifies. In this case, the rule that is allowed to be broken is that you can flurry with a bow, rather than with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. Compare the language to the entry for monk weapons:
Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows
In this case, we now know that this means it works like TWF and you can't take all attacks with a single weapon. Meanwhile, we are told in similar language that the Zen Archer can make a flurry of blows, but only when using a bow. I find it difficult to read one as allowing only one hand's worth of attacks with each weapon while the other lets you take them all. A Monk of the Empty Hand also has similar language allowing Flurry with improvised weapons, but I don't think anyone would argue this means you get to ignore the normal TWF rules because of it.
I do need to be clearer about one point, though. You absolutely CAN flurry with a bow. You are just limited to a single hand's worth of attacks, while the rest are forfeited since you have no second weapon with which to take them. I've been using "can't flurry" as a sort of shorthand for that, but looking back it seems to muddle things a bit.
Honestly though, I should probably stop arguing. It is a totally academic point. I'm not going to require Zen Archers wield two bows in a game, because that is obviously against the intent of the class. Just like I wouldn't let a Sohei flurry in armor, since that is also against the explicitly mentioned intent of the author. We can go back and forth on the theoretical point, but I doubt I'll be able to make you see it as a mistake any more than you will convince me to see the written entry allowing one to skip the TWF restrictions. And since it won't be changing any of our games, might as well move on.
You make a valid point, but what keeps my unconvinced is the limitation (my number 2). The other examples aren't limited by what they can use their flurry with. They could take a full flurry with a chair and their unarmed strike, for example, a Zen Archer can't.
Not that I expect that to change your mind, just felt the need to explain why that argument doesn't convince me.
As a side rant, I'm really angry at the whole thing. I mean if I handed you a red and a green crayon and told you to make 4 lines "in any combination" so you show up with 4 red lines, how could I possibly call that wrong and wonder why you didn't know I meant 2 green lines and 2 red lines?
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As a side rant, I'm really angry at the whole thing. I mean if I handed you a red and a green crayon and told you to make 4 lines "in any combination" so you show up with 4 red lines, how could I possibly call that wrong and wonder why you didn't know I meant 2 green lines and 2 red lines?
Seriously. I wouldn't necessarily say I'm "angry," but I do think it was a very odd ruling with some extreme results. It will be nice after convention season, when this gets cleaned up.
In this case, the rule that is allowed to be broken is that you can flurry with a bow, rather than with unarmed strikes or monk weapons.The problem being the SKR clarified what flurrying meant. It means getting an extra attack with a different weapon being wielded in different hands than the ones wielding the primary weapon... much like TWF.
So a 3 armed archer could flurry with a pair of bows (the bows held in two hands and the third drawing the arrows and firing them in turn).
This of course is not what is intended.. what is intended is essentially rapid shot at 1st level and more extra attacks at 8th and 15th level. Basically how everyone (or almost everyone) was running all monk flurries before SKR informed us that wasn't what was intended.
-James
Then it gets even more messy when you add in that you can change hands as a free action (otherwise how do Clerics hold their focus?), so attack with your one weapon, switch hands and attack with it in your "off hand" (which oh by the way, monk's don't have the "off hand" required by TWF).
I was about to say that maybe "angry" was too strong a word, but the more I think about it, the more I think it's a pretty accurate description.
So was checking you the FAQ and came upon this little gem to stir me up even more:
Feral Combat Training (page 101): What does “with” in the Special line for this feat mean for monks making a flurry of blows?
Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows (Core Rulebook 57). Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/15/12
Highlight mine, and here's the LINK
The Psionic power "Graft Weapon" can make any melee weapon you can use in one hand into a natural weapon. From there, there's a variety of ways to transform the weapon into a bow, of varying levels of dubiousity. (Polymorph Any Object, for example.) You can also use bowstaff on a shortbow and then attach that; that's also potentially workable, although it's unclear if bowstaff actually makes the bow count as a melee weapon. I don't know of a way to make a manufactured weapon count as a natural weapon otherwise. There might be some way to get a natural weapon to count as a bow?
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At 8th, a Zen flurries for +6/+6/+1/+1.
At 8th, a Sohei6/(rang2 or figh2) wearing Gloves of Dueling will flurry/Rapid/Manyshot for +7(x2)/+7/+7/+2/+2. If the GM doesn't allow Rapid/Many, he's +9/+9/+4/+4. Either way, he's much better than the poor, shafted Zen, who's had his schtick completely swiped by another archetype.
