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So, last weekend. I thought it would be the greatest game day for us ever. We had record attendance, and record tables going off. What made it sad...I TPK'd my table, on the first combat vs. zombies. It was a perfect storm, no one had slashing weapons, all of them 1st levels. Last zombie had 2 hp, and rolled a crit on the still standing sorceror. :(
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The three new guys were ok with it. They just scratched off the name, and Character #, and renamed and assigned the next character # to their character sheet. They'd not played the character's before. The one that had sessions already, I gave him a Kyra Pregen at his request.
The one with XP, he was upset. I felt bad. We restarted the scenario, and they survived the next time, and ended up finishing with "Group #2".
What surprised me was that a couple players at other tables congratulated me. I made sure to be clear to them that this was not a congratulatory situation, and that condolences should be given to those with fallen characters. That I did not do anything out of the ordinary or beyond tactics to "off" the characters. So, I didn't "Win".
Bottom line: My dice were hot, theirs were ice cold, even after the restart their dice were pretty cold.
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One yes, the other during the break, as I was walking to the bathroom. I made sure to make a "show" of my answer to make sure it was clear that this was not a "reasonable" way to act during a character death. The player was young (15?), so I can't blame him too much. The one that was away, he was 20's, he I clearly told that this was not right.
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I can understand your reaction, Dan.
But you know, I would have congratulated you, too, on staying true to the dice and the scenario, and not backed away. There's a lot of pressure to softball Pathfinder Society and make sure the PCs don't die. I might well have congratulated you for not bowing to that pressure.
I have also congratulated players on their characters' deaths, either because they went out in a blaze of glory and their death "mattered", or else because they took the blow in stride as a player and served as a good example to other players that getting your storytelling playing piece gakked isn't the end of the world.
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Statistics for my table:
11% chance for a death at my table.
2.7% chance for a TPK.
Don't feel too bad about these stats, one of our GMs, is 50% on both of them... of course he has only run 4 games...
After his second game ended in a TPK *his first one as well* I asked the players what happened, the main complaint I had about the GM was he beat the PCs while they were bleeding to death to kill them...
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I would have accepted your congratulation in that context. The context for the two that did, was not that. It was, "hooray, you killed them!"
Everyone takes a character death differently. I told them I felt for them and their loss, and explained that it does happen, but rarely.
After 60+ runs, I have yet to record any TPKs...I'm just a softie, I think. I have very few character kills for that matter as well.
For new players, I will usually go out of my way to avoid killing new characters and instead focus on creating teaching moments for them.
I like having the specter of death in Society mods (because I want choice to matter), but do not like to kill characters.
I'm sorry that his happened, but it is part of the game.
-Pain
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My first kill was a brand new player that had made a rogue with 9 constitution. He took an attack of opportunity and was knocked down to -10, but I didn't know that was death until I said "Well you have a few turns to go, right?"
He hasn't come back, and I'm pretty unhappy about that particular one.
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My first kill was a brand new player that had made a rogue with 9 constitution.You are now allowed to stop feeling bad.
EDIT:
My first kill was a brand new player that had made a rogue with 9 constitution.Well, maybe a little bad :P
I know the character was doomed anyway, but I didn't like killing him in his second session.
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I have yet to TPK a party (tho there have been some close calls). The only times I have killed players is when massive crits occur. Once down, I try to let players stay there but not die. Now, I *do* feel that certain enemies should go for the kill (for example, with ghouls I roll a percentile to determine if they go for the easy meat on the ground, or keep attacking those standing).
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Yeah, TPK's happen, sadly. I still remember my first TPK, not talking society, but it still kind of haunts me sometimes.
I'm with you Dan, I don't feel proud about killing people's characters. Yeah its part of the game, but this is a cooperative effort in my mind. I'm providing the stage for their play, and I have yet to meet anyone that enjoys their character dying, especially at low levels.
The first few levels they're still fairly new characters, and there is still that excitement of playing this cool character concept that they've come up with, they haven't really had a chance to explore their personalities or abilities fully, and might have a great back story that they would like to bring out over the course of the character's career. And then to have them taken away by bad rolls with no chance of a raise just stinks.
I know some around here do seem to take pleasure in killing pc's (I won't name any names, but you know who you are) and it saddens me. If the dice roll that way, fine, but I don't see any reason to feel proud about destroying what others have spent many hours creating and playing.
Is there any way to lighten the cost of death without pulling punches on die rolls?
I think you did the right thing, drama is heightened with the prospect of failure. I also think your right to discourage laughing, and pointing of fingers at those who had the misfortune of a dead character.
I'm not a PFS player, so I can only offer support in a general sense. Can you add freebies to resurrect fallen PC's in PFS?
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Is there any way to lighten the cost of death without pulling punches on die rolls?
I think you did the right thing, drama is heightened with the prospect of failure. I also think your right to discourage laughing, and pointing of fingers at those who had the misfortune of a dead character.
I'm not a PFS player, so I can only offer support in a general sense. Can you add freebies to resurrect fallen PC's in PFS?
A Scroll of Breath of Life is always cheaper than a Raise Dead.
EDIT: After a few levels, a PC has earned enough "prestige" to effectively get revived for free (no monetary cost). Also, fellow clerics/oracles etc can cast spells like Raise Dead if they are present. Thirdly, the cost of death can be divided among the other players, making it really a non issue unless the entire party goes down. There's actually a one time boon a player can get that enables him to self-rez.
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A 50% TPK rate is far too high unless the players are either exceptionally stupid, exceptionally unlucky or both. Take care that the DM is not actively attempting to obtain TPK's. In our Pathfinder group, we have had rare character deaths but no TPK's since we began the Pathfinder campaign. In instances where all players are down and bleeding out, as DM I would have them robbed of all posessions (if the enemy is intelligent) or, in the case of undead ghoul opponent(s),have the ghoul(s) carry off 1 adventurer per ghoul to snack on. Or, in the case of undead ghouls (if I was feeling exceptionally generous or the players were new), the surviving ghouls could fight one another for the choice tidbits, possibly increasing the survival numbers for party members.
Did you catch the next line where he said the guy had only run 4 games? Could just be bad luck, with that small of a sample size.
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Is there any way to lighten the cost of death without pulling punches on die rolls?
I very much wish the penalty for death was less (after all, doesn't the PF society have access to lots of free resources from friends? Sure we do). It would stop GMs from softballing everything and we'd legitimately be allowed to increase the challenge level on scenarios without driving people away from PF and making people re-roll PCs all the time.
A Scroll of Breath of Life is always cheaper than a Raise Dead.
I want this to work, but in practice it's very hard to use.
Usually, the combatant dies suddenly and unexpectantly (crit). Or after they charge. Assuming the scroll isn't in hand, it's a move action to take it out and a standard action to use. And you must use it within 1 round of death. Which essentially means that you have to be within 5' of the dead PC to use it (if it's not in hand).
How does it get used in your groups, or does the GM handwave retrieving the scroll?
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The only times I have killed players is when massive crits occur.
I know a player might be upset after a massive crit on his PC, but that's no reason to kill him!
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A Scroll of Breath of Life is always cheaper than a Raise Dead.I want this to work, but in practice it's very hard to use.
Usually, the combatant dies suddenly and unexpectantly (crit). Or after they charge. Assuming the scroll isn't in hand, it's a move action to take it out and a standard action to use. And you must use it within 1 round of death. Which essentially means that you have to be within 5' of the dead PC to use it (if it's not in hand).
How does it get used in your groups, or does the GM handwave retrieving the scroll?
Used it during Year of the Shadow Lodge this weekend. Took coordination. The ranger rode it over on his wolf, pulling it out, and stopping by my imp. My imp took the scroll and flew it over (invisibly) to me. I took the scroll and d. doored with the cleric to the downed barbarian (-50). The cleric used the scroll and got the barbarian into still being alive range.
I wouldn't handwave it, but I would encourage players to think creatively and reward that.
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I had my first TPK last week - and it sucked. Luckily, we didn't go right to the bitter end, due to time we called the game with only 2 (squishy) PCs standing against a very large monster (they had been playing up). This allowed me to call the game and at least make them recoverable, but still had one death.
Harder to do on the first encounter, of course. It's situations like this that make me glad I always set up the GM screen, even if I usually roll in front of it most of the time.
I also got congratulated, although mostly by GMs... doesn't sit rght with me either.
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A Scroll of Breath of Life is always cheaper than a Raise Dead.I want this to work, but in practice it's very hard to use.
Usually, the combatant dies suddenly and unexpectantly (crit). Or after they charge. Assuming the scroll isn't in hand, it's a move action to take it out and a standard action to use. And you must use it within 1 round of death. Which essentially means that you have to be within 5' of the dead PC to use it (if it's not in hand).
How does it get used in your groups, or does the GM handwave retrieving the scroll?
"Here. This is a spring-loaded wrist sheath. Strap it on. Inside it is a scroll of Breath of Life. If I die, then hustle on over to me, flick your wrist to release the scroll, and bring me back. Alright?"
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I had my first two kills yesterday. I agree, not proud moments, no matter how much pre-game "who's ready to die?" joking there might be.
Considering my character was one of those deaths Jiggy, you should be proud as it was NOT your fault and you were well prepped for the adventure overall. You stayed true to the scenario and the die rolls. I do not fault you at all for it but the scenario itself and the fact that fighters go in borked. But not for here :)
Congrats hehe! :)
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The only TPK I've had so far (if you'd call it that) was during the Grand Melee at PaizoCon last year. I warned the players that the module was a case of escalation, but I don't think they believed me.
Other than that, I'm over a handful but still under a dozen PC kills. Don't worry Jiggy, you'll soon earn the reputation you deserve as another local "killer GM".
I will say this though - what really irks me is GMs deliberately toning UP encounters and then killing characters. As long as you didn't do that, we're kosher. ;-)
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I've discovered after-the-fact that GMs were softballing enemies, encounters, or faction missions, and it has never felt right to me. I'm okay with my character biting it, but I don't want him to survive because the GM didn't want to hurt my feelings.
It sucks that you had a TPK, and it sucks that those players lost their characters. However, it's the way the game is meant to go, and I'd rather die properly than be handed a win without deserving it.
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The only time I softball things is if a player biffs a skillcheck by 1 point and the cleric hadn't cast guidance. I usually ask "Now, y'all heard the cleric beseach Abadar, right?". This is for low level players only, mind you. At level 5, the cleric should know better. Level 1? Cleric might not realize they've got a goldmine in that thar cantrip.
I honestly didn't think anyone would die. I thought the entire module was kind of a push over. It wasn't until I realized that no one had a high damage weapon, and all piercing weapons that they might be in trouble.
What was your class mix?
(Did you have a channelling Cleric?)
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I honestly didn't think anyone would die. I thought the entire module was kind of a push over. It wasn't until I realized that no one had a high damage weapon, and all piercing weapons that they might be in trouble.What was your class mix?
(Did you have a channelling Cleric?)
Bard, sorcerer, ranger, Druid.
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I've discovered after-the-fact that GMs were softballing enemies, encounters, or faction missions, and it has never felt right to me. I'm okay with my character biting it, but I don't want him to survive because the GM didn't want to hurt my feelings.
One of my characters was spared death (a deserved death) by GM pity. Since then, he's also escaped death once via honest error and once via calling the scenario for time. Honestly, playing that character is starting to feel a little... tainted.
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If the druid had a pet there should have been slashing on there somewhere (bite is PSB)
The scenario in question makes it difficult for animal companions to be there.
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Everybody knows animal companions, familiars, and eidolons don't have souls and are noy only fair game for GMs but if you're not killing at least one a scenario you're doing it wrong. ;-)
I came close the other day - the ranger's animal companion failed its save against 44 fire damage.