|
Bless my players, but they all have a certain tendency to build fairly powerful characters. They make good characters and roleplay well, but they tend to have a different standard for "playable". We've made it through the first three books and for most of the hex encounters they've come to realize they can just blow all their abilities, rest, repeat. But, as the books get further, I've found its less about those encounters so thats not as much as a bother for me. However, for Kingmaker to stay interesting, at the very least I have to make them feel threatened during the big story encounters. Thus far, I've been able to do that. The Stag Lord did it all on his own at that low a level. The Owlbear (with a slight boost to AC and some more HP) made an exciting encounter where the last standing PC KO'ed him. Vordakai kept them on their toes after a long trip through his tomb.
However, looking to Book 4 and 5 I have some concerns. Both Armag and Irovetti have 200ish HP and it seems like my players will steam roll them.
My players currently consist of:
An animal domain Cleric - She heals like crazy, keeping the team standing. Never attacks, sometimes supplements damage with spiritual weapons. Her animal companion, an ape, gets loaded down with gear and beats face with all his primary attacks.
A switch hitting ranger - Depending on what the situation requires he either carves up opponents with an eleven curved blade (and improved critical) or lets loose a flurry of arrows through rapid shot and many shot. Soon, instant enemy will give him a flat +6 to attack and damage.
A lance wielding dragoon paladin - His damage is a flat dice +20. Sometimes, when he gets a charge off on his mount this of course turns into a rather substantial dice +60. If he crits, its rather messy.
My fourth player is making a new guy before the 4th book.
Granted, I haven't looked too deeply into things, but seeing Armag with a 24 AC and 200ish HP I just imagine the ranger taking his turn being instant enemy and letting loose 4-5 arrows (the lowest of which will hit him 50% of the time, the others are rather likely to hit) doing dice +25 on each hit.
Anyway, does anyone have any advice in general or even specifically to the Kingmaker scenario? Not against them being powerful, just want to make sure the second half of the game stays as interesting as the first.
Peruse some of the pertinent campaign journals. If you think that the baddies are fine offensively but lacking in staying power, simply inflate hp so they should last a few rounds.
Alernatively, pad them with gaggles of nini-onions that do simple stuff like aid his AC, toss volleys of alchemical items or pepper the heroes with low-charge / cunsumable items such as wands, scrolls, beads of force and fireball beads from necklaces of missiles.
Another alternative are fey druidy types that spam summon nature's ally spells.
Irovetti needs sturdy guard types to screen for him.
Armag is a push over until you take a really close look at what his weapon does for him.
If all else fails, tack on the Exemplar template and see how they look afterwards. :)
I gave Armag, adamantine full plate to help mitigate damage from the PC's. It took two battles to kill him, during the second, he goaded the paladin in the group into single combat. Considering Armag is not evil, smite did not work and Armag got at least one kill.
The fight with Irovetti was exciting simply because the large numbers of combatants led to a battle which has been unrivaled throughout the AP. It was a continuous slug fest that lasted two full games sessions, and it was the only time the party has been substantively worn down, and on the ropes due to attrition.
I added a sense of urgency to the battle because three Pitaxian armies had overtaken Drelev Keep and the PC's were without the resources to take it back. Their only hope was to strike at the king directly.
If they have the option of sitting back and picking every opponent off at their leisure, some of the drama will be lost for sure.
would the adamantine armor DR stack with Armags current DR?
No, it would not, but I don't believe Armag has DR due to the fighter levels anyway.
He was was used in two fights against the PC's, the DR really made a difference in fight #2|
|
Peruse some of the pertinent campaign journals. If you think that the baddies are fine offensively but lacking in staying power, simply inflate hp so they should last a few rounds.
I've bumped up the HP on almost every thing they fight. Offensively they seem fine. Honestly, they are probably fine defensively too, I just have a bunch of twinked out players.
Alernatively, pad them with gaggles of nini-onions that do simple stuff like aid his AC, toss volleys of alchemical items or pepper the heroes with low-charge / cunsumable items such as wands, scrolls, beads of force and fireball beads from necklaces of missiles.
Another alternative are fey druidy types that spam summon nature's ally spells.
I've done this here or there as well. I just don't want this to become the standard for every big fight. I added a few waves of summon monsters for Vordakai that made things fun. However, I find that summoned monsters are little more than an annoyance to players who either a) Ignore them or b) One shot them. Granted, b does buy the big bad guy a turn. Plus, aiding AC only helps for melee, archer still lights things up.
Irovetti needs sturdy guard types to screen for him.
Haven't looked at this fight in depth. Glad to hear its a big sha-bang with all kinds of guards.
Armag is a push over until you take a really close look at what his weapon does for him.
What are you referencing here?
I gave Armag, adamantine full plate to help mitigate damage from the PC's. It took two battles to kill him, during the second, he goaded the paladin in the group into single combat. Considering Armag is not evil, smite did not work and Armag got at least one kill.
The adamantine full plate idea I will almost definitely steal. Also noticed the not evil thing. Looking very much forward to watching the Paladin's heart sink on this one.
The fight with Irovetti was exciting simply because the large numbers of combatants led to a battle which has been unrivaled throughout the AP. It was a continuous slug fest that lasted two full games sessions, and it was the only time the party has been substantively worn down, and on the ropes due to attrition.
Very happy to hear this. Hope it all plays out well with my players. Like I said, I've had really good luck with making the final fights big. The Stag Lord was some 25 rounds of hit and run. Even dragging on a bit using Diehard. The Owlbear was almost a TPK turned heroic achievement. Vordakai was a real war of attrition (40 something rounds, used summons to keep people occupiedish and stat minus galore to help).
|
Armag is an experienced warlord. He is likely to go after the most threatening opponent first, ignoring melee-types. He is quite capable of dealing 100+ damage in a single round, and he has 8 of his undead guards to help. The tactics section describes him as using Vital Strike, but this is pretty dumb after the first round, given his damage bonus. If he hears the party coming (a battle with Zorek is a dead giveaway), he should have time to prepare an ambush with his skeletons surrounding the door and hiding himself to one side. But in general, Armag fares best against spellcasters, not warriors.
You should consider playing up the battle with Zorek. Take a careful look at his stat-block, keep in mind the guards and wards effect in the hallway leading to his chamber (fog + webs, making him totally concealed until they get in the room, and the confusion effect at the intersection). He also has complete knowledge of all activity in the tomb, so he can be 100% prepared when the party reaches him, and he does not hold back.
Pre-Encounter: Zorek's statblock includes all of the spells listed in his "before the encounter" tactics, except remember he is Large size (this is reflected in his stats, just not his listed size). Don't bother with bull's strength, use might of the gods for an extra +8 Strength for 12 rounds. Also add in some spells that protect against things the party has been doing in the tomb. Keep a detailed track of durations to be fair, but with his tomb-vision he should be able to time things quite well. His alarm spell can also help.
Use weapon master before the party enters to gain +4 initiative.
1) Open with a blade barrier while the party is still in the hallway (this will fill the hall with no place to escape). Again, remember the confusion effect and the fact that the party is slowed by webs. Another good option may be to use the circle version around himself, protecting against both melee and ranged attacks. This should be a good 40-70 damage to all party members before they even see him. If they take more than 1 round to get out of the hallway, use a sound burst to stun them for 1 round.
2) Once the party starts breaching the room, divide them in half with wall of stone
3) Hit them with flame strikes if they are bunched up, but only if Zorek has not seen them do any energy resistance spells. That's another 20-40 damage each, maybe more depending on their positioning.
4) Given your party abilities, Zorek should keep up his antilife shell as long as possible, bombarding the vulnerable characters with spells. He should have a good idea of their relative saving throws by this point. Use wind wall if the archer is still around.
5) After at least one character is out of the fight, focus his melee attacks on the most dangerous target to him (probably the cleric followed by the archer). Use weapon master as a swift action each round to gain combat feats. Consider Improved Sunder on the clerics holy symbol or other weapons (+23 on the attempt), or Lunge (20ft. reach).
6) Use heal to reset things when he gets injured. Don't forget his fast healing ability. Have him dimension door behind the party, especially if they are split apart after step (1).
|
|
** spoiler omitted **
He should stick around to fight, and make a decent effort of it. Only if things take an obvious turn for the worst (half hit points, the Baron dies, or his sister is badly wounded) should he flee.
I remember, my players sneaked into the city just as Drelev was rallying the troops in the courtyard. A maximized fireball turned the Baroness and her dog into crispy critters...
|
Im thinking about buffing up the barbarian encampment as well. 12 lvl 4 Barbs are gonna be pitiful against my horrible PCs. Im really hoping that + armags tomb will be a struggle. Maybe throw in some hill giants and a rage prophet.
I think that sounds great. How many hill giants? They'll probably still wipe the floor with them. Are you just trying to make them use up resources?
Rebuild the barbarians for pure offense and saves with such gems as Superstitious and whatever rage thing it is that tanks AC instead of attack. Give 'em throwing axxes of human slaying and bump them to 7-9th level. Opening salvo: those axes, targeting one human at a time until they run out or all the humans and half-humans fall over.
Don't forget the hostages - they make great deterrants against AoE effects.
Burrowing critters that are tamed / bound into service add extra surprise fun (presuming tremorsense or blindsense/blindsight).
|
|
Rebuild the barbarians for pure offense and saves with such gems as Superstitious and whatever rage thing it is that tanks AC instead of attack. Give 'em throwing axxes of human slaying and bump them to 7-9th level. Opening salvo: those axes, targeting one human at a time until they run out or all the humans and half-humans fall over.
Don't forget the hostages - they make great deterrants against AoE effects.
Burrowing critters that are tamed / bound into service add extra surprise fun (presuming tremorsense or blindsense/blindsight).
I don't think his group relies much on spells. However, I do agree about that point. My group was paranoid about including any of the huts in their spells because they were not sure where the prisoners were.
** spoiler omitted **
It sounds like your PCs are a lot like mine. They love to min/max, although they are still great roleplayers and good players in general.
As for hex exploration, allowing players to rest all the time greatly unbalances the game in favor of spellcasters and PCs with powerful daily abilities. Right from the start, I informed my players that allowing them to rest constantly would make the AP a lot easier. They agreed that they didn't want it to be easy, so we decided that they could only have a "full rest" if they spent 24 hours camping and recuperating in a hex, in which case they would have about a 50/50 chance of a random encounter that day. Given how tough some of the random encounters in the AP are (3 trolls at 2nd level, anyone?) they quickly learned that resting a lot in the wilderness was not safe. Also, they could achieve a full rest by staying in one of their towns. This added a nice "home base" feel to the PCs' kingdom, and also always gave them a reason to return home.
As for individual encounters, all the usual DM tricks like templates, sizing monsters up, and additional mobs work well enough for most encounters in Kingmaker. Although, judging from your comments about Vordakai, the Stag Lord, and others...it doesn't sound like you have that much trouble challenging them. Try not to get too frustrated as they gain power and move into high levels. High level players need to feel powerful. Maybe those 12 low-level barbarians are there to get stomped and make your players feel like they're awesome. Those encounters can be just as important and memorable as the raging barbarian who sundered all their magic swords and nearly killed them.
|
|
It sounds like your PCs are a lot like mine. They love to min/max, although they are still great roleplayers and good players in general.
As for hex exploration, allowing players to rest all the time greatly unbalances the game in favor of spellcasters and PCs with powerful daily abilities. Right from the start, I informed my players that allowing them to rest constantly would make the AP a lot easier. They agreed that they didn't want it to be easy, so we decided that they could only have a "full rest" if they spent 24 hours camping and recuperating in a hex, in which case they would have about a 50/50 chance of a random encounter that day. Given how tough some of the random encounters in the AP are (3 trolls at 2nd level, anyone?) they quickly learned that resting a lot in the wilderness was not safe. Also, they could achieve a full rest by staying in one of their towns. This added a nice "home base" feel to the PCs' kingdom, and also always gave them a reason to return home.
As for individual encounters, all the usual DM tricks like templates, sizing monsters up, and additional mobs work well enough for most encounters in Kingmaker. Although, judging from your comments about Vordakai, the Stag Lord, and others...it doesn't sound like you have that much trouble challenging them. Try not to get too frustrated as they gain power and move into high levels. High level players need to feel powerful. Maybe those 12 low-level barbarians are there to get stomped and make your players feel like they're awesome. Those encounters can be just as important and memorable as the raging barbarian who sundered all their magic swords and nearly killed them.
+1
|
|
It sounds like your PCs are a lot like mine. They love to min/max, although they are still great roleplayers and good players in general.
All true. They sometimes get a bit cross talky, but for the most part their great and I want to give them a great game.
As for hex exploration, allowing players to rest all the time greatly unbalances the game in favor of spellcasters and PCs with powerful daily abilities. Right from the start, I informed my players that allowing them to rest constantly would make the AP a lot easier. They agreed that they didn't want it to be easy,
When they can justify it to themselves (normally pretty easy) my players can be hyper realistic. Saying "this will make stuff really easy so you shouldn't rest here" would be met by "Well, why WOULDN'T my character want to increase his odds of survival. Thats just good roleplaying."
so we decided that they could only have a "full rest" if they spent 24 hours camping and recuperating in a hex, in which case they would have about a 50/50 chance of a random encounter that day. Given how tough some of the random encounters in the AP are (3 trolls at 2nd level, anyone?) they quickly learned that resting a lot in the wilderness was not safe. Also, they could achieve a full rest by staying in one of their towns. This added a nice "home base" feel to the PCs' kingdom, and also always gave them a reason to return home.
I like this. All of it. The only thing is, random encounters for me have fallen by the wayside some. First, I find that they didn't happen all that often anyway, and when they did, most were more hassle than they were worth. Further, the amount of time they take up when I want to get to real stuff (i.e. the story, or even mini stories within the hexes) seems like a lot. I applaud this strategy though. Seems like it would work well if I had done it from the very beginning and stuck with it.
As for individual encounters, all the usual DM tricks like templates, sizing monsters up, and additional mobs work well enough for most encounters in Kingmaker. Although, judging from your comments about Vordakai, the Stag Lord, and others...it doesn't sound like you have that much trouble challenging them.
Challenging them through the lower levels took a little bit of work, but has gone well so far. I just worry that with Armag being a melee type character, he could get wiped pretty quick. Although, seeing that Armag has his skelly's and Irovetti his guards makes me think those fights could be much more fun.
Try not to get too frustrated as they gain power and move into high levels. High level players need to feel powerful. Maybe those 12 low-level barbarians are there to get stomped and make your players feel like they're awesome. Those encounters can be just as important and memorable as the raging barbarian who sundered all their magic swords and nearly killed them.
I'm trying my best not to get frustrated cause I know they are enjoying the power. Its just, most of our games don't make it this high so its a bit of uncharted territory for a relatively new GM. And the 12 low level barbarians will stay low level. So will the boggard encounter. I know why those are there, let the players feel like bad asses. I just wanted to make sure the encounters that are SUPPOSED to be life and death, are life and death.
|
|
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
At first glance, this appears to be true. However:
The sword uses the rules for dispel magic which means it cannot dispel anything with "Instantaneous" duration - fire shield = yes; fireball = no. It's meant to get things like black tentacles, or hold person that are usually turned to against warriors.
Or it can ready an action to counterspell ... Not a great chance of success without ranks in Spellcraft, but it can try.
Or it can neutralize a powerful magic item..
** spoiler omitted **For myself, I feel that a 25% chance to negate most highest-threat spells is powerful enough for an artifact, but that's just for my games obviously.
I forgot to mention thaat IMC it does nothing to protect anything/anyone else asides from the weapon and its wielder (and by extension all attended gear). It fits the intent I think without permitting the rest of the group to metagame it by staying within 20 or 30 feet of the wielder to take advantage of that protection.
Also, if I recall correctly... that weapon has a pretty horrible downside as well for any PC trying to use it.
Also, if I recall correctly... that weapon has a pretty horrible downside as well for any PC trying to use it.
Yep, that's how fight #2 with Armag came about in my game. Good times!
It lead to this exchange.
PC1:"Is your dwarf getting taller?"
PC2: "Er, no?! Btw, my dwarf will spend the next two weeks training in his secret hideaway."
PC1: "Why?"
PC2: "No reason."
|
|
Also, if I recall correctly... that weapon has a pretty horrible downside as well for any PC trying to use it.Yep, that's how fight #2 with Armag came about in my game. Good times!
It lead to this exchange.
PC1:"Is your dwarf getting taller?"
PC2: "Er, no?! Btw, my dwarf will spend the next two weeks training in his secret hideaway."
PC1: "Why?"
PC2: "No reason."
Great stuff!!
|
|
Also, if I recall correctly... that weapon has a pretty horrible downside as well for any PC trying to use it.Yep, that's how fight #2 with Armag came about in my game. Good times!
It lead to this exchange.
PC1:"Is your dwarf getting taller?"
PC2: "Er, no?! Btw, my dwarf will spend the next two weeks training in his secret hideaway."
PC1: "Why?"
PC2: "No reason."
Too funny - my affected PC is also a dwarf. Unfortunately, he is now bound and gagged until the party returns to their capital...
Sounds like a good time for one of the really tough wandering monsters to make an appearance ... y'know, the kind where they need everyone ... ;)
|
|
If there are no "random" encounters, then it overbalances the power of spellcasters. Just because you haven't been doing them before, doesn't mean you can't start.
I feel that actually rolling dice to determine a random encounter in game is a little lame and can bring the gameplay to a grinding halt. Sure, I may roll to see if an encounter occurs, but even then I prefer to use them when dramatically appropriate and use the percentage chance of an encounter as a guide to approximately how often one occurs.
As far as the encounter itself, I always prepare these ahead of time, just like any other encounter. I will look on the random encounter chart, and either choose one that seems appropriate, or use it as inspiration for creating my own. I then prepare the encounter entirely ahead of time--composition, stats of monsters, tactics, treasure (if any), etc. As I'm creating these encounters, some will really lend themselves to a specific location(s), so I put those there. The rest just go in my "bag of tricks" for when I need a "random" encounter.
Since you're dealing with PC's that are already plenty powerful, and your goal is to challenge them by breaking up the constant rest periods so they actually have to manage resources, be careful in designing encounters that give treasure or beefing up current encounters by adding magic items. There are plenty of monsters that don't have treasure, and even if a monster lists treasure, that particular monster doesn't have to have any (a lot of times it doesn't even make sense that it would have treasure). Remember that the AP already has the appropriate amount of treasure in it to maintain WBL.
If the party decides to track the critter back to its lair in search of treasure, well that could be yet another encounter if there are other critters at the lair, and all that to discover there's no treasure after all. Expecting a given monster to have treasure, and to go to the lair hunting for it, just because it has treasure in the Bestiary is metagaming that I discourage in my players.
In the end, remember that as a DM you can do any trick the players can do in spades. If they insist on min-maxing their characters, then I proceed to min-max the encounters. It's only fair, and a steamroll is no fun for anyone.
we have 7 players at 25 points
give every monster maximum hps and the baddies hang around long enough to do there party tricks