Orc Boyz, which part of "I can trip three people in three widely different locales within 160 feet of my position" you don't understand? None of the spells you proposed above can do that. I'm not saying that Toppling Magic Missile are uber-cool, but it seems they can be useful in specific situations.
What part of "Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart" don't YOU understand?
Tone down the attitude and read the rules more closely.
Heh. I don't think I'd ever read that - I assumed I could hit any group of targets of my choice at any range out to maximum.
Heh. I don't think I'd ever read that - I assumed I could hit any group of targets of my choice at any range out to maximum.
A great many multi-target spells have such limitations built into them.
Chain Lightning - 30 feet
Haste - 30 feet
Magic Missile - 15 feet
Mass Hold Person - 30 feet
Mass Suggestion - 30 feet
Scorching Ray - 30 feet
Slow - 30 feet
Telekinesis - 10 feet
etc.
Orc Boyz, which part of "I can trip three people in three widely different locales within 160 feet of my position" you don't understand? None of the spells you proposed above can do that. I'm not saying that Toppling Magic Missile are uber-cool, but it seems they can be useful in specific situations.
what part of "spending unnecessary resources for a bad trick" do you not understand? with that beings said, in which module in PFs would you even have the chance to TRY and trip 3 people 160 feet away from eachother? every module ive played has been confined to a 60x60 foot room or smaller, or on a ship which is played on a 60x60 foot map.
i understand the concept of 3 trip attempts for a 1st level spell, but now you're waisting feats on the meta magic, the trait, and other feats just to make your magic missle valuable, when like i said before " they have better options" so im in complete agreement with ravingdork when he says "And I can confirm that, anywhere else, it's absolute garbage."
Orc Boyz, which part of "I can trip three people in three widely different locales within 160 feet of my position" you don't understand? None of the spells you proposed above can do that. I'm not saying that Toppling Magic Missile are uber-cool, but it seems they can be useful in specific situations.What part of "Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart" don't YOU understand?
Tone down the attitude and read the rules more closely.
I stand corrected. Still, it can be situationally useful, like when one of your ally is flanked by two opponents: how are you going to affect them both with a Grease spell without also affecting your ally?
i understand the concept of 3 trip attempts for a 1st level spell, but now you're waisting feats on the meta magic, the trait, and other feats just to make your magic missle valuable, when like i said before " they have better options" so im in complete agreement with ravingdork when he says "And I can confirm that, anywhere else, it's absolute garbage."
I wouldn't describe the Carrion Crown AP as "anywhere else", I wouldn't even describe it as a typical AP. For example, Toppling Magic Missiles could be very effective in the first modules of Council of Thieves, because of the kind of bad guys you're fighting in it. Sure, all the investment in those feats could hurt you in the long run, so it depends which kind of campaing you are playing in. At least Spell Specialization can be recycled so that it can affect other spells later in your career while Toppling Spell could still be useful later on if your GM let you create your own "force" spells. The very low number of spells with the "force" descriptor is what is hurting Topplig Spell the most, turning it into a "one-trick" metamagic feat.
On the other hand, let's consider the Lesser Toppling Metamagic Rod.
Costs 3000gp, works 3 times a day. I think it's definitely worthwhile for most any wiz/sorc in PFS, but the worth outside of it depends on abundance of humanoids if the GM says multiple missiles mean multiple trip attempts (which I think could go either way.)
Other things to consider: TMM is subject to SR while Grease is not. I think TMM will generally prevent more attacks because it can has a greater spread.
On the other hand, let's consider the Lesser Toppling Metamagic Rod.
Costs 3000gp, works 3 times a day. I think it's definitely worthwhile for most any wiz/sorc in PFS, but the worth outside of it depends on if the GM says multiple missiles mean multiple trip attempts (which I think could go either way.)
According to the RAW, it's only 1 trip attempt per target of the spell.
According to the RAW, it's only 1 trip attempt per target of the spell.
I disagree, I think it's up for interpretation. In any case it's not explicitly stated so saying "RAW SAYS X!" is wrong. You might think it's implicitly stated, but you're going to have to persuade me, just like you might have to persuade a GM. (Please don't actually try to persuade me.)
I disagree, I think it's up for interpretation. In any case it's not explicitly stated so saying "RAW SAYS X!" is wrong. You might think it's implicitly stated, but you're going to have to persuade me, just like you might have to persuade a GM. (Please don't actually try to persuade me.)
According to the RAW, it's only 1 trip attempt per target of the spell.
I won't, stringburka has already explained, on page 2 of this thread, why it's only a single trip attempt per target, although I do agree that it could be more clearly written. :)
Just out of curiosity, how do they rule it in PFS?
Expect table variation.
I rule in my games that each instance of force damage allows for a trip. Hitting one guy with five missiles means five checks. However, I play under GMs who do not rule likewise.
I rule thusly in no small part due to my experience with the combo, and how it never once really did anything for me.
I've heard that black tentacles is positively terrific against humanoids, and absolutely terrible against many monsters. Do you think that true gustavio?
I tend to agree, but I'd add a sentence. It's terrific against humanoids around the level you get it and absolutely terrible against many monsters.
It's useful against casters, for example. But against casters, Feeblemind tend to be better anyways...
The fact is: your Character Level + 5 is the LOWEST bonus a fighter can have at level 9, when you get the spell. So your grapple check is as low as the worst grappler fighter in your level. I wouldn't suggest a fighter without any feat in grappling to go around and try to grapple a dragon. So this spell is not going to cut through it either.
It's a good spell. It's like a souped up version of Grease (it makes the terrain difficult to pass), it's area, so you can use it against mooks and some of them will get grappled, it's great against spellcasters... (not as good as feeblemind, but good anyways). However, it's not the end-all-encounters-now that some people say it is. Take a look at CR 10 monsters. With +15 to grapple, you are not going to grapple that much of them...
EDIT: I just made a quick search. In Kingmaker AP, at the end of book IV, the BBEG is Armag (a fighter barbarian), and right before him, there's a cleric (zorek). Armag CMD is 35 (so you need a 20 to grapple him at lvl 10), Zorek CMD is 30 (so you need a 15, and he can cast freedom of movement). Baron Hanis Drelev has 31, and Irovetti and his retinue of generals have 35 to 39 in CMD. So you can't grapple them, period. You can grapple the minions and mooks, but you could kill them with an empowered fireball too. That's why they are mooks.
Hang on a minute with this "only one trip attempt" stuff. While I do agree that if I hit one guy with all of my missiles, I get one trip attempt, however, If I target 5 different guys, I should get a trip attempt against each of them, shouldn't I? Or am I just reading the rules (and the interpretations thereof) wrong?
It's only one trip attempt PER TARGET affected by the spell. So if you hit 5 different opponents, you get a trip attempt against each of them (5 trip attempts in total).
I was in Carrion Crown 1, and now half way through 2. For those of you in the know, this should give you an idea of the things I've been facing.
We're just getting into #2 of Carrion Crown, and my ranger with undead as a favored enemy is having a very nice time - though he hasn't tripped many baddies either.
I've had a trip built fighter run through the mid levels (5 to 16). The reality is that the CMD of monsters rises much faster than even a dedicated fighter can build his trip CMB. There were a number of monsters that the fighter could only trip with a 20. He got discouraged, as it worked fairly often in the 5-10 range. I allowed him a respec.
I would imagine that given the math behind toppling metamagic, that its even harder for wizards to use that to trip higher (10+) level dealies. At low levels, you'll get some milage out of it for the most part. Goblins, kobalds, humanoids, etc, don't have high CMDs at that point. But your caster level + your slow increase in primary stat simply won't keep up with the CMD rise as you move up in levels.
I've had a trip built fighter run through the mid levels (5 to 16). The reality is that the CMD of monsters rises much faster than even a dedicated fighter can build his trip CMB. There were a number of monsters that the fighter could only trip with a 20. He got discouraged, as it worked fairly often in the 5-10 range. I allowed him a respec.
I would imagine that given the math behind toppling metamagic, that its even harder for wizards to use that to trip higher (10+) level dealies. At low levels, you'll get some milage out of it for the most part. Goblins, kobalds, humanoids, etc, don't have high CMDs at that point. But your caster level + your slow increase in primary stat simply won't keep up with the CMD rise as you move up in levels.
This!
Combat maneuvers are a low lvl game. At high lvls they don't even work well for the extremely dedicated classes that specialize in a single maneuver.
And even then, high level characters struggle. My lv 15 fighter friend has +trip on everything...feats, weapon bonuses, and more...still struggled to trip most of the monsters.
Well, when it comes to dragons, I rarely give them on that's exactly their level..it's usually a few levels higher. And it's usually buffed (Dragons sleep with buffs on..that's how they live for 1000's of years) and they tend to fly whenever possible unless they have clear superiority.
You're probably right Nicos. Not sure. I know he had 40 or more, but we'd run into monsters with more than 55 at times. Perhaps it was just the monsters I was choosing (mostly at random). I think the real problem with trip is that a majority of hgiher level monsters have fly. Tons of them...so I guess that's probably the biggest culprit to him not getting use out of trip. And my enemy NPCs are built like tanks with appropriate buffs.
I thougth that flying winged monters fall to the ground when tripped and in their next action they can retake altitude if they haven't hit the ground yet.
Also, my main problem with trip is the abundance of monsters with magical flight or immune to trip via freedom of movement.
Yawar
When it comes to actual combat maneuvers I like dirty trick the most, however for what toppling spell does it's not a bad choice as you don't have to apply it if you don't want to. It can be rather campaign dependent however.
If you have a lot of meleers in your party, Topplig MM is an awesome low-level spell, but if your fellows are more inclined to use ranged attacks, a vanilla Web spell will do a better job (if the battlefield is Web-compatible).
Toppling MM is a second level spell. No other second level spells take out ancient Red Dragons 100% of the time.what are you talking about?The cause of much of the above angst seems to be people expecting a 2nd level spell trick to be uber-powerful at high levels of power.
This is a bit silly, toppling MM works well, within its constraints, i.e. it's a second level spell, not a "press X to win" button.
I don't know about anyone else, but my Carrion Crown wizard was level 5 and under.
It was more of a self-destruct button I found. Might as well have stood their and laughed at my allies' plight while doing nothing to help them.
And even then, high level characters struggle. My lv 15 fighter friend has +trip on everything...feats, weapon bonuses, and more...still struggled to trip most of the monsters.lets see (with a conservative calculation)
+15 BAB + 8 (bonus enhacement + dueling property) + 7 (str) + 2 (WF + GWF) + 3 (weapon training) +2 (gloves of dueling) + 4 (trip feats) = +41
a huge mature adult red dragon have CMD 46 against trip.
Make it a Lorewarden, take a Halberd, drink an enlarge potion. That gives you another +14 at lvl 15.
As pointed out, the problem is most monsters fly, are incorporeal, or other stuff. IE: they are *magical*, while tripping is *mundane*, and in this game, magic trumps mundane. The fighter *can* have enough skill to trip a dragon. The problem is the dragon has magic (or supernatural abilities) that trump any mundane attempt.
Yeah, I know, I was agreeing with you ^^
I wouldn't be against each missile adding a +2 *cumulative* bonus (after the first missile) to the trip check when shooting missiles at a single target. That would make the trick a bit more useful as the character levels, and add a bit of strategy to MM use. (All on one target to make him fall over? Or spread the love and hit a bunch of mooks? You decide!)
Picture the Hulk getting shot by an MLRS missile launcher, first missle hits, and he shrugs it off, followed immediately by a second missile which makes him lean back a bit, third missile makes him take a step back and the fourth makes him fall over. All very cinematic and cool! (Then he gets up and crushes the MLRS, but that was a foregone conclusion anyway...)
yeah, seems like you would only get a single trip with all your missiles hitting one target, but I would definitely call each missile an aid action to trip on the first.
Playing a wizard is about picking the right tool for the job - toppling MM has been a perfectly useful tool for me playing a 10th level wizard. Not against ancient dragons, but against a bunch of mooks. Severed its purpose spectacularly, i.e. knock them over so they can't get to me while the meatshields mince them up.
If it's just mooks, why not just kill them with a high damage area effect? You even get the bonus of catching the BBEG in it sometimes too.
Disposing of mooks outright is almost always be better than disabling them for (at most) 1 round.
A level 6 character with 20 Intelligence (+5 mod) would have a +11 total modifier to trip.
So if your opponent had a CMD of, say 20, then you would need to roll a 9 or better on your 1d20+11.
I hope that helps.
I've used traits like Magical Lineage and feats like Preferred Spell to be able to cast toppling magic missiles all day, every day from level one up, and...it totally sucks!
I've used it approximately 20 times in actual play and I have not been able to trip a SINGLE creature yet! Everything with an appropriate CR seems to have too many legs, happens to be flying, or otherwise has an unbeatable CMD! The 1d20+caster level+casting stat mod just doesn't keep up with the scaling of creatures' and characters' CMD values!
I can't believe I've wasted so many resources on a trap recommendation from these forums. Forums, YOU NEED TO DO BETTER!!!
EDIT: Sorry. Just needed a place to vent.
Yup RD. But if ya listened to me I told ya toppling was a waste.
Rime is much, much better for the same cost. Additionally, if you read me dazing build, you need the elemental focuses to boost the dc up higher.Rime nukes dex - which means its useful to lower the reflex save - rimed magic missiles followed by dazing snapdragon (move action).
Additionally, rime + sleet, or rime + ice storm (forget which) entangled and difficult terrain - pretty effectively locks down an encounter.
However, there are a couple of other cute tricks: Pernicious poison, accelerated poison, and stinking cloud.. for example.
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I still don't see how this completely and totally failed on every attempt at low levels. That would just be bad luck with rolling. But now that I've built a tripping fighter, I can see how this doesn't scale well into mid-high levels, which does make it a waste at those levels.
I have a Deep Earth Sorcerer whose first level bloodline Tremor power has the same bonus to trip as Toppling Magic Missile (casting stat bonus + level). At level 4, he's at +10 with a 22 cha, which is good enough to succeed once in a while, and should continue to be useful against humanoid enemies for another couple of levels.
My Lore Warden fighter with 18 str, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus, a masterwork weapon, Fury's Fall, and the Lore Warden bonus to CMB will be at +15 to trip at level 3. It's not terrible for the sorcerer at low levels, but the fighter is going to be MUCH better at it, and be able to continue tripping into much higher levels.
I've got a Sorcerer who did the following:
Magical Lineage (Trait) (Magic Missile)
Toppling Spell (Feat) (1st)
Spontaneous Metafocus (Feat) 3rd.
He's gotten a lot of mileage out of tripping magic missiles.
He's also gotten a lot of mileage out of "put fighter on floating disk, trip a bunch of targets, move fighter next to prone target to attack from higher ground."
Moving Floating Disk is a Move Action
With Spontaneous Metafocus, Tripping Magic Missile is a Standard (and only a 1st level spell).
Works well.
Of course, he's also got Toppling Force Punch delivered through Spectral Hand as a 4th level spell, which can also be useful, and has Dazing Spell. Dazing Magic Missile is a 3rd level spell for him.
I suspect that at 12th level, when he has a Lesser Rod of Widen Spell, Widened Dazing Fireballs are going to make a lot of encounters boring as all hell (He's built for PFS, so little customization by the GM.)