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I need this matter resolved because we have a player who claims otherwise and it's creating some conflict in opinions.
School conjuration (creation) [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a pinch of sulfur and a single shuriken worth 2 sp)
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect Two or more fiery shuriken
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
DESCRIPTION
You call forth two fiery projectiles resembling shuriken, plus one more for every two caster levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of eight shuriken at 15th level), which hover in front of you. When these shuriken appear, you can launch some or all of them at the same target or different targets. Each shuriken requires a ranged touch attack roll to hit and deals 1d8 points of fire damage. You provoke no attacks of opportunity when launching them. Any shuriken you do not launch as part of casting this spell remains floating near you for the spell’s duration. On rounds subsequent to your casting of this spell, you can spend a swift action to launch one of these remaining shuriken or a standard action to launch any number of these remaining shuriken. If you fail to launch a shuriken before the duration ends, that shuriken disappears and is wasted.
The problem is this. Do Fiery shurikens sneak attack, from invisibility condition ( which gives you usually 1 sneak attack opportunity ), sneak attack with every shot? Can you present me any situation without target being flatfooted that would allow this player to sneak attack target or multiple different targets to gain multiple sneak attacks.
Please , I urge people to help me with this answer and possibly more questions regarding it.
Much appreciated.
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From invisibility: first one gets sneak attack, later ones in the turn do not since you no longer have invisibility. The moment you make the first attack roll, you lose invisibility. Thems the rules.
From greater invisibility: they all get sneak attack.
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Someone might answer this in the mean time but I'm going to look into it. I know how this would have worked in 3rd and maybe 3.5 but I have to double check all the relevant Pathfinder info.
Edit: Ah, well there you go. I know it sounds silly but you can also do it when flanking I believe. It's dangerous but a prepared mage can sneak up invisibly, then launch the shurikens and use a quickened spell to hide/teleport away.
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You can sneak attack multiple times in a round if you have more than one attack and are flanking an enemy. If you are in position to flank multiple enemies, you can sneak attack multiple enemies in the same round.
With greater invisibility you can even sneak attack at range.
Here's the thing to keep in mind.
Each sneak attack dice rolled is an average of 3.5 damage, and the rogue has a poorer attack bonus.
With the spell, the rogue hits more easily, but uses a spell to get there (consumable expenditure). If he's dealing 4d6+1d4 for the shuriken, it looks like a lot, but it's only an average of 16.5 damage. The party barbarian laughs at the trivial output. And that's a decently high rogue too.
wait a min then if a rogue uses 2 weapon fighting he gets sneak attack from both weapon? and imagine if he has multiple attack from base like this a rogue with base att 22 and with improved 2 weapon fighting feat: 20/20/15/15 so he gets 4 sneak attack against the same target?
If the rogue has a way to keep the sneak attack condition through his entire full-round attack (such as by flanking his opponent), then yes.
The standard rule of thumb for sneak attack is "once per attack roll".
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I am familiar with flanking and sneaking, thanks for answers.
Fiery shurikens are ranged touch attack all the time, to my knowledge, if you step in melee ,even into flanking position, they still receive 1 sneak attack in best case scenario (being invisible)by acoording to ranged sneak attack rules? Flanking wouldn't help with ranged attacks that is.
I know this is most likely truth, I just want some stuff flat on paper.
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Specifically for using the fiery shurikens, the best case situation would probably be an improved invisibility spell. That would allow the rogue to add sneak attack damage to all his shurikens.
With regular invisibility, the rogue would be able to add sneak attack to the first attack only - unless -
The target is denied his dexterity bonus for some reason. This is usually from not having acted in combat. Other things that might provide the bonus would be - his target currently has the grappled condition. Or his target is currently using acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and/or uneven ground.
The spell grease is often used as a way to get an opponent to use acrobatics so that the rogue can then sneak attack.
There's also sniping: If you are already Stealthed, you can make a Stealth roll with a -20 penalty after each attack roll. Like normal Stealth, though, you can only take the roll if you still have the right conditions (e.g., cover, concealment). With that penalty, though, it's difficult without already having greater invisibility.
From invisibility: first one gets sneak attack, later ones in the turn do not since you no longer have invisibility. The moment you make the first attack roll, you lose invisibility. Thems the rules.
Cheapy,
Can you or anyone reading this PLEASE tell me where (book and page number) the official rules clearly state that?
I completely agree with your assessment, to me it is obvious that once a character makes its first attack the invisibility ends, removing the condition which made sneak attacks possible. But has Paizo stated this anywhere in the rulebooks?
Here's why I need this. I have this player in my current campaign. He's a great friend and a really talented GM but when he sits on the other side of the GM screen it's like lycanthropy sets in. This player is not going to let his his min-maxed ranged-attack ninja build suffer a 66% loss in sneak-damage without raising a huge stink. As he understands it:
vanishing trick + extra ki + rapid shot = 3 easy sneak attacks per round, 9 rounds per day
Showing him the rules clearly in ink would reduce the drama and wailing common to our rules disagreements.
Unfortunately despite reading everywhere this rule should be (or might be) I have failed to find concrete mention of sneak damage NOT applying to multiple attacks in a round from a character under the invisibility spell.
Help would be...well, helpful.
From invisibility: first one gets sneak attack, later ones in the turn do not since you no longer have invisibility. The moment you make the first attack roll, you lose invisibility. Thems the rules.
Cheapy,
Can you or anyone reading this PLEASE tell me where (book and page number) the official rules clearly state that?
I completely agree with your assessment, to me it is obvious that once a character makes its first attack the invisibility ends, removing the condition which made sneak attacks possible. But has Paizo stated this anywhere in the rulebooks?
Here's why I need this. I have this player in my current campaign. He's a great friend and a really talented GM but when he sits on the other side of the GM screen it's like lycanthropy sets in. This player is not going to let his his min-maxed ranged-attack ninja build suffer a 66% loss in sneak-damage without raising a huge stink. As he understands it:
vanishing trick + extra ki + rapid shot = 3 easy sneak attacks per round, 9 rounds per day
Showing him the rules clearly in ink would reduce the drama and wailing common to our rules disagreements.
Unfortunately despite reading everywhere this rule should be (or might be) I have failed to find concrete mention of sneak damage NOT applying to multiple attacks in a round from a character under the invisibility spell.
Help would be...well, helpful.
I don't have my book handy, but the PRD (which is updated by Paizo and, thus, is widely considered more correct than the books) should suffice. If not, you can find the spell, the invisible condition, and the rogue page in the CRB with little trouble.
Text of the invisiblity spell:
If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.
That's it. As soon as you make an attack (not an attack action, not a full-attack, but an attack), you're visible.
Once you're visible, they are no longer denied their Dex bonus to AC, which is the very characteristic that makes invisibility allow sneak attack.
Once your opponent gets their AC bonus back, no sneak attack for you.
The rules don't go into more detail on that subject because it is clear from the above text.