Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

RPG Superstar 2015

Anyone else have a mental block with guns in fantasy?


Gamer Talk

51 to 100 of 128 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Contributor

3 people marked this as a favorite.

My attitude is that if I'm going to allow pirates with tricorne hats, their ships need to have cannons, and if they can have cannons on their ships, they can have a brace of pistols in their belts. It's a matter of setting the century and looking at the technology.

Certainly bullets can bypass plate armor, but so can crossbows, and yet you see lots of paladins clanking around in full plate while there are rogues with crossbows in the same party. If I can stand that sort of anachronism, I can stand the anachronism of plate armor in the age of bullets, especially if enchantments could make it the equivalent of kevlar vests.

Plus, it should also be noted, there is plenty of historic magic from the age of bullets, stuff like inscribing bullets with the target's name, silver bullets for werewolves, etc. If you've got werewolves running around, it doesn't ruin the fantasy to be shooting them with silver bullets, and if your flesh golems are based on Universal's take on Mary Shelley's Frankenstein? What century are you operating in again? It's certainly one with bullets and guns. If we can backdate firmly 19th century flesh golems into our medieval fantasy without ruining it, we can also backdate 19th century guns.


Agreed. Blackbeard without lit fuses in his hat is just.....not the same. Hence, guns must exist.


and, the picture for inspiration

Sovereign Court

I really can't imagine pirates without guns myself. I have no problems putting them on the side for other campaigns, but when you build a campaign around pirates why would you want to play without guns? Could anyone imagine a wild west game without six shooters? A typical fantasy without plate mail? I think Fantasy is a fine fit with fire arms.

Sovereign Court

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
and, the picture for inspiration

I plan on having my tiefling using oil to light his/her hair on fire. Hopefully that fire resistance 5 extends to the tiefling's hair.


Personally, I think there is room for guns in most fantasy setting if implemented properly. Black powder in a world where alchemists are able to make things like alchemists fire is perfectly logical, and really all guns are is a way to concentrate the blast from black powder in a single direction. However, like most things related to alchemy, it's going to be expensive, and serve as a backup to magic, not a replacement, except in very limited circumstances, like Alkenstar in Golarion, where magic simply isn't a viable option. The biggest difficulty with guns is implementing them in a way that retains their largely experimental status while still making them a legitimate option for PCs who genuinely want to use them.

I haven't looked over the PF implementation rules wise in great detail, but the world support in Golarion seems to be an appropriate setup. A place that has viability issues with magic has developed their own solution, hoarded it, as people in that kind of situation tend to do, and the rest of the world doesn't seem to really care. Magic is still overall cheaper, quicker, and more powerful so it's not like this new toy is going to be a major factor on the world stage, but it still has a legitimate place.


Guy Humual wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
and, the picture for inspiration
I plan on having my tiefling using oil to light his/her hair on fire. Hopefully that fire resistance 5 extends to the tiefling's hair.

BB's bastard's kid, with a Kingstown witch.

The Exchange

I have come more and more to respect guns in a fantasy setting.


Chernobyl wrote:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, which has always had gunpowder weapons. But, that is a lo-fantasy setting, not a hi-fantasy setting. Less magic.

WFRP gets the nod for me for making gun rules in a fantasy setting that, while they may not be historically accurate (and when I read a medival history that talks about dragon attacks on a wizard's castle I actually care about that) are fun to play with at the table, My players loved having guns but in WFRP you could expect to get one or two shots off before closing in melee. Given the loads times, misfire chances and expense of powder long protracted gun battles just weren't practical. Make no mistake guns were weapons of intimidation (you just do NOT ignore a guardsman with a blunderbuss pointed at you!) and a shout of 'Stand and Deliver!' sent waves of fear through every player's heart.

Beyond WFRP gun implementation in D&D is spotty at best. I figured 4E had the perfect model to do firearms too - encounter powers. One big attack once per encounter/gun. Made sense to me but I never saw it done this way.


might be a good idea though.


Steampunk has guns. Steampunk is fantasy. So guns can be in fantasy, and are.

Now, do they seem incongruous in certain settings? Sure. I don't want guns in my LotR. But then, I don't have to worry about that, so I don't bother getting mad about it.

I do like guns in my pirate fantasies. Pirate tales are fantasy tales within which guns fit quite swimmingly. (Get it? Swimmingly?)


I'm confused why Fireballs and Lightning Bolts are "ok" but guns are not...

It seems if you have that kind of control over magical energy putting a
little into a small capsule with a lead stopper (a bullet) should not be
too far behind, creatively speaking.

.

I've always considered Magic Missile to be a gun without the metal hold-it-all-together bits.

.

The Exchange

I wonder how much of it has to do with many gamers being anti gun in reality.....


Andrew R wrote:
I wonder how much of it has to do with many gamers being anti gun in reality.....

I say that there should be serious limits on carrying guns in the public because people are not responsible to handle them correctly (to say it mildly) [a stance to which I came slowly after being in favor of greater access to firearms in the past] but I have no problems with firearms in fantasy settings so I think that it's not the issue. Most antigun people are not opposed to firearms itself but to the handing real firearms to real people. In games, both pen-n-paper or computer games fictional firearms are handed to fictional people so no amount of misuse of fictional item can cause real problems.

Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Andrew R wrote:
I wonder how much of it has to do with many gamers being anti gun in reality.....

Not necessarily. In our case, neither my husband nor I have issues with guns IRL, but in or games our stances are totally opposite. I have no issues but when I wante to try out a gunslinger PC he came up with aen entirely new (homebrew) world rather than allow guns in his standard world.

It just seems to be a personal thing.

Scarab Sages

I think my hesitance, and perhaps some will agree with me, is that historically (and I like a dash of history/myth in my fantasy) there is one significant problem: gunpowder change everything.

Obviously, as soon as you introduce gunpowder into a setting, the rate of technological advance significantly increases.

1) New materials are unearthed with improvements in mining.
2) Construction becomes faster, easier, and more economical in remote locations.
3) Warfare is engaged on a massive scale with easily trained troops and vastly improved but easy to use weapons.
4) All of these elements also combine to breed innovation.

Then there are the secondary effects of this, altering the game world.

1) Races or nations focused on procuring resources (ie. dwarves) begin to lose power.
2) Nations expand rapidly, diminishing remote dangerous regions. Dungeons and wandering monsters soon become things of the past.
3) Nations, not local power, take center stage in these conflicts. Warrior castes are phased out in favor of large-scale training regiments.
4) More innovation leads to more changes. Playing in a medieval-style world gives a good 1000 years of slow change (throw in a catastophe or two and this extends further). Once gunpowder is introduced, you have about 300 years until technology takes over.

Finally, there are the mechanical changes.

1) What do all these new materials look like or do?
2) If there are less places to adventure, where do we gain XP?
3) Armor is useless, melee weapons are almost as useless. Damage outputs increase dramatically. Attack rolls are much easier. Monsters are further reduced in effectiveness.

I get that some people don't care about any of this stuff. I do.


I think the biggest difference most people have between the real world and the fantasy world is that magic already does most everything that gunpowder can, so the splash effect is not nearly as significant. It is noticable, but in order to develop it to a state that it has enough uses to trigger a major industrial change would take more time, effort, and money than most people with those resources are going to be willing to spend, and those that do are generally going to be on the fringe of society to begin with, so getting social acceptance is also a major difficulty. I'm reminded of a section from the book on Kaer Maga that detailed a maker of gliders that would allow people to try them by sailing off of the walls; most people thought he was nuts, and he generally only got thrill seekers and dare devils. Gunpowder would be the same way; more expensive, bulky, dangerous, and experimental than simply using magic, it would draw a few crazies, but no one from mainstream society.


I've read (and enjoyed) the Guardians of the Flame series, by Joel Rosenberg -- and recommend it.

quick synopsis:
The main characters are a college gaming group who's GM is a wizard exiled from his home plane, an alternate Prime Material. He spends time developing their characters, then sends them 'into the game world.' Much mayhem ensues, and over time, one of the players -- an engineering major -- introduces guns and gunpowder to the world.

However, things that make an entertaining read don't always translate well into gaming... I'm not a fan of guns in my fantasy game: the presence of magic obviates the necessary study of physics, chemistry, and metallurgy that go into the development of firearms. No one is going to spend the needful time and effort to make the breakthroughs that lead to guns when the wizards of the world outperform 'scientific' research.


Without reading the whole thread, I can't do guns in fantasy (even hand crossbows make me snigger sarcastically (unless wielded by drow)). However, there are exceptions. Moorcock's "Warhound and the World's Pain" is just crying out for a campaign, or the recent Solomon Kane movie. Not steampunk, but renaissance technology - metal armour is still good enough and guns are still poor enough that the balance hasn't changed much compared with crossbows and it's going to take you long enough to reload that you'd probably better be carrying a sword as well. I think the original Warhammer Fantasy Role Play had a similar setting (presumably the MMORPG as well). Although I've enjoyed the Steven King novels, I'd call these science fiction rather than fantasy.

Sovereign Court

Alitan wrote:
However, things that make an entertaining read don't always translate well into gaming... I'm not a fan of guns in my fantasy game: the presence of magic obviates the necessary study of physics, chemistry, and metallurgy that go into the development of firearms. No one is going to spend the needful time and effort to make the breakthroughs that lead to guns when the wizards of the world outperform 'scientific' research.

Look at the time it would take to train a wizard vs the time it would take to teach someone to fire a cannon. That's the reason science would win out over magic. It's also the same reason firearms killed the whole code of chivalry and the knights. Sure a musket could punch through armor, but when you look at the time it takes to train a knight, construct their armor, vs the time it takes to train a peasant to learn the skills to potentially kill said knight it's a no brainer.


I keep the peanut butter guns out of my fantasy jelly.


The Outlaw Josie Whales wrote:

I really want to like the use of gunslingers within pathfinder. I think it's an incredibly cool concept and should work. I mean this with absolute sincerity. However for some reason I have this mental block that is preventing my imagination for completely embracing the idea. It's like I can't picture it like I can picture other more typical fantasy stuff. And because of this I can't fully enjoy it. Logically I completely understand this makes no sense. It's fantasy first of all! Also I love star wars for crying out loud!

Has anyone else had similar issues? Can anyone point me in the direction of some good concept art of firearms combined with fantasy?

Thanks

I'm in completely the same boat. I have players who are interested in making gunslingers, and I don't mind that they use the class, but I just can't picture it in game. I sort of can, but it's just really, really not my thing.

I won't prevent my players from partaking in that style though, unless we play in a setting that just doesn't support it. I just won't be making very many gunslinger npc's any time soon.

Liberty's Edge

I don't really see an issue with guns or gunslingers and in a world filled with magic I'm not sure the invention would really make THAT big of a deal. Being expensive and hard to develop is just the tip of the iceberg. A mage with a well placed fireball spell can wipe out a small group in less than six seconds.

I think the inclusion of magic in a world completely mutates how the evolution of the world would progress than it has in our world. Bullets bypassing armor? Bracers of Armor it up!

Anyway, I'm just saying I'm a go for it myself. My wife on the other hand isn't the biggest fan at times but it depends on the world.


Don't forget logistics. One of the largest advantages firearms offered was a huge reduction in the supply trains needed to keep an army moving. In a single battle, a skilled archer could go through an entire wagonload of arrows all by him self. The musketeer could carry that all on his person. Then you couple that with the fact that the same powder needed for the muskets also works on the seige engines and the change starts to pick up speed.

However, in a fantasy world where fireballs and summonings can happen, where anyone with the right training can also pick up a wand, then the progress of guns can easily be slowed down as well.

I don't have a mental block on guns in my fantasy, but then, when I think of pirates my mind goes to the golden age of piracy, with movies like Captain Blood and The Sea Hawk, and cannons (and therefore guns) figure in to the mix.

Many of the more well known fantasy monsters such as Dracula, Frankenstien, and others are written in a period where guns are part of the world, so it isn't like they have no place unless dictated by the people involved in telling the story.


Jal Dorak wrote:

Obviously, as soon as you introduce gunpowder into a setting, the rate of technological advance significantly increases.

1) New materials are unearthed with improvements in mining.
2) Construction becomes faster, easier, and more economical in remote locations.
3) Warfare is engaged on a massive scale with easily trained troops and vastly improved but easy to use weapons.
4) All of these elements also combine to breed innovation.

Magic is already being used to do all these things. I think you have

completely over looked the effect of magic.

Wizards think gunpowder is for the lower classes.

.


"Bixby's Fist Full of Dollars"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

In short, if you have a mental block on guns in fantasy, Consider that maybe your definition of fantasy might be too restrictive?

Red Sonja was originally created as a pistol wielding pirate in Conan's world. Red Sonja of Rogatine.

For me it depends on the setting. Some settings they're very appropriate. Others, not so much.

Scarab Sages

Grand Magus wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:

Obviously, as soon as you introduce gunpowder into a setting, the rate of technological advance significantly increases.

1) New materials are unearthed with improvements in mining.
2) Construction becomes faster, easier, and more economical in remote locations.
3) Warfare is engaged on a massive scale with easily trained troops and vastly improved but easy to use weapons.
4) All of these elements also combine to breed innovation.

Magic is already being used to do all these things. I think you have

completely over looked the effect of magic.

Wizards think gunpowder is for the lower classes.

.

The difference is that only 1 in 10000 people can wield magic with enough effect (about level 7) that they can do these things. Any level 1 commoner can wield a gun or stuff black powder for rock blasting.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Jal Dorak wrote:

Obviously, as soon as you introduce gunpowder into a setting, the rate of technological advance significantly increases.

That's not necessarily true. The Chinese had gunpowder centuries before the West. But they never became imperialists using it to fuel their expansion. That came centuries later after it was exported to Europe.

Similarly the Incas made wheeled toy carts to amuse children. But they never got to making them full size for practical use.

Technological progression is not an inevitable path. Like evolution it is filled with blind alleys, mis-steps, and interruption. Much of it occurs as happenstance when one inventor realises that what he's working on can be applied completely different. Many modern products would never have been realised if it were not for one man who decided that the lowly peanut, useful only for reinvigorating depleted soil, could actually have uses of it's own.

The discovery of TCP/IP, the very foundation of the network we're using is as much a matter of idiosyncracy as it is technological acheivement.

It is a grave mistake to assume that our technological path is inevitable, that it would be repeated in any circumstance close enough.


Jal Dorak wrote:
Grand Magus wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:

Obviously, as soon as you introduce gunpowder into a setting, the rate of technological advance significantly increases.

1) New materials are unearthed with improvements in mining.
2) Construction becomes faster, easier, and more economical in remote locations.
3) Warfare is engaged on a massive scale with easily trained troops and vastly improved but easy to use weapons.
4) All of these elements also combine to breed innovation.

Magic is already being used to do all these things. I think you have

completely over looked the effect of magic.

Wizards think gunpowder is for the lower classes.

.

The difference is that only 1 in 10000 people can wield magic with enough effect (about level 7) that they can do these things. Any level 1 commoner can wield a gun or stuff black powder for rock blasting.

But only a few can actually afford to buy the gun, the ammo, or black powder. With development, guns and black powder would come down in cost, but who is going to pay the initial cost of development when they could pay a mage to do the same thing without risking social revolt?

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:

Obviously, as soon as you introduce gunpowder into a setting, the rate of technological advance significantly increases.

That's not necessarily true. The Chinese had gunpowder centuries before the West. But they never became imperialists using it to fuel their expansion. That came centuries later after it was exported to Europe.

Similarly the Incas made wheeled toy carts to amuse children. But they never got to making them full size for practical use.

Technological progression is not an inevitable path. Like evolution it is filled with blind alleys, mis-steps, and interruption. Much of it occurs as happenstance when one inventor realises that what he's working on can be applied completely different. Many modern products would never have been realised if it were not for one man who decided that the lowly peanut, useful only for reinvigorating depleted soil, could actually have uses of it's own.

The discovery of TCP/IP, the very foundation of the network we're using is as much a matter of idiosyncracy as it is technological acheivement.

It is a grave mistake to assume that our technological path is inevitable, that it would be repeated in any circumstance close enough.

Since most D&D campaign worlds mirror medieval Europe and not medieval China, I would argue that this is inconsequential. A D&D setting only increases the drive for weaponry.

It's very simple to summarize my argument - the fact that we are having a lengthy (healthy) debate on the subject is enough reason for me to not want guns in my D&D campaign. :)

Scarab Sages

sunshadow21 wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:

The difference is that only 1 in 10000 people can wield magic with enough effect (about level 7) that they can do these things. Any level 1 commoner can wield a gun or stuff black powder for rock blasting.

But only a few can actually afford to buy the gun, the ammo, or black powder. With development, guns and black powder would come down in cost, but who is going to pay the initial cost of development when they could pay a mage to do the same thing without risking social revolt?

I think we are partly agreeing here - this is part of the reason I think guns are unnecessary, but at the same time it is still much more economical to invest in creating a firearms industry than to keep paying a flat rate to a monopoly of spellcasters.


Jal Dorak wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:

The difference is that only 1 in 10000 people can wield magic with enough effect (about level 7) that they can do these things. Any level 1 commoner can wield a gun or stuff black powder for rock blasting.

But only a few can actually afford to buy the gun, the ammo, or black powder. With development, guns and black powder would come down in cost, but who is going to pay the initial cost of development when they could pay a mage to do the same thing without risking social revolt?
I think we are partly agreeing here - this is part of the reason I think guns are unnecessary, but at the same time it is still much more economical to invest in creating a firearms industry than to keep paying a flat rate to a monopoly of spellcasters.

Eventually, maybe, after a lot of development time, but at the loss of social control. It's fairly easy to keep a small number of casters from running rampant, not so with lots of guns. It just depends on what those in control of the resources are more concerned about, and most authorities in fantasy settings tend to be autocrats, so the social control would be a big factor.


sunshadow21 wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:

The difference is that only 1 in 10000 people can wield magic with enough effect (about level 7) that they can do these things. Any level 1 commoner can wield a gun or stuff black powder for rock blasting.

But only a few can actually afford to buy the gun, the ammo, or black powder. With development, guns and black powder would come down in cost, but who is going to pay the initial cost of development when they could pay a mage to do the same thing without risking social revolt?
I think we are partly agreeing here - this is part of the reason I think guns are unnecessary, but at the same time it is still much more economical to invest in creating a firearms industry than to keep paying a flat rate to a monopoly of spellcasters.
Eventually, maybe, after a lot of development time, but at the loss of social control. It's fairly easy to keep a small number of casters from running rampant, not so with lots of guns. It just depends on what those in control of the resources are more concerned about, and most authorities in fantasy settings tend to be autocrats, so the social control would be a big factor.

That's part of it. More is the investment and development time. Proceeding from "I have this explosive powder" to effective hand weapons or even cannon is slow and hard. In the real world, it was done eventually, though parts of the world sat on it for hundreds of years, because there were incremental advantages to each step. Even the crudest early experiments with artillery were still more effective than anything else available. But at that point you're still generations away from anything you could hand out in quantity to the conscripts in your army.

In a D&D style world, you can get better results right now by hiring a mage. There's no short term gain from financing research into firearms.

Sovereign Court

Presumably the research isn't being funded for the common man, but rather for the rich and powerful who can afford it. I'm sure you'll agree that nobody wants too much power in someone else's hands, so as a rich and powerful duke I might hire a wizard, but I might also buy a firearm for myself.

Contributor

Given that a 5th level wizard can create a wand of magic missile which can easily kill any 1st level character, and can be used by any 1st level wizard or anyone with Use Magic Device? Guns really aren't any great shakes until you start getting into mass production, and even that would likely happen with kings who stockpile wands of magic missile for wartime.

It's easy to handwave around technology not advancing, especially when we're playing in fantasy settings where certain time periods which lasted only a couple years or at most a decade in reality are expanded to become ongoing eras of magical kingdoms that have been at the same technology level for ages.

Besides, there are a lots of ways to handwave it if players start looking at the 4th wall and wondering why technology has been stagnated. Blame cultists of Norgorber who decide that new technology is a "secret" to be suppressed, plagues of monkey-wrenching gremlins who sabotage all large collections of firearms outside the mana wastes, or even the Church of Abadar who is heavily invested in the multinational buggy whip manufacturing trade--think of the mark-up!--and don't want to see the bottom drop out of their stock portfolios if these new-fangled steam-driven horseless carriage things catch on anywhere outside of Alkenstar. And that's not counting the opinion of the patron god or goddess of horses, whoever that is.

Sovereign Court Contributor , Star Voter 2013

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Given that a 5th level wizard can create a wand of magic missile which can easily kill any 1st level character, and can be used by any 1st level wizard or anyone with Use Magic Device? Guns really aren't any great shakes until you start getting into mass production, and even that would likely happen with kings who stockpile wands of magic missile for wartime.

It's easy to handwave around technology not advancing, especially when we're playing in fantasy settings where certain time periods which lasted only a couple years or at most a decade in reality are expanded to become ongoing eras of magical kingdoms that have been at the same technology level for ages.

Besides, there are a lots of ways to handwave it if players start looking at the 4th wall and wondering why technology has been stagnated. Blame cultists of Norgorber who decide that new technology is a "secret" to be suppressed, plagues of monkey-wrenching gremlins who sabotage all large collections of firearms outside the mana wastes, or even the Church of Abadar who is heavily invested in the multinational buggy whip manufacturing trade--think of the mark-up!--and don't want to see the bottom drop out of their stock portfolios if these new-fangled steam-driven horseless carriage things catch on anywhere outside of Alkenstar. And that's not counting the opinion of the patron god or goddess of horses, whoever that is.

Well, one of Erastil's servants (Arangin) is a horse. It makes sense for Erastil to have no truck (or cart) with new-fangled technology, in my mind.


Guns in a fantasy setting is like pennut butter and chocolate, they go great together but there also great separate.

Dedicated Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

On the other hand, a ruler who realizes the value of technological solutions in a magical world can have a quickly trained army of conscripted peasants who with firearms each have the firepower previously reserved for spellcasters.

I have always wanted to run a campaign where a major theme is the introduction of firearms to a world, leading to the overthrow of a government dominated by spellcasters who have historically had a monopoly on heavy firepower in the world.


The Aspis Consortium, single handedly controls the gun trade so as to not devalue or unbalance their carefully maintained economic manipulation.

Honestly though, I used to have a problem with the gunslinger but for whatever reason that block seems to have just disappeared. Basically, if I can look at Numerian Mecha-scorpion and think that its awesome not allowing a gunslinger becoems silly to me. Not that everyone has to like the Mecha-scorpion either. Still have a block on Summoners though, just can't like them for some reason, they seem like a tacked on Wizard conjuration archetype that got to big for its britches to me.


Guy Humual wrote:
Presumably the research isn't being funded for the common man, but rather for the rich and powerful who can afford it. I'm sure you'll agree that nobody wants too much power in someone else's hands, so as a rich and powerful duke I might hire a wizard, but I might also buy a firearm for myself.

For yourself, maybe, but for all of your guards and your army, highly doubtful, and even for you, it would be more of a toy and show piece than a practical weapon.


Saint Caleth wrote:

On the other hand, a ruler who realizes the value of technological solutions in a magical world can have a quickly trained army of conscripted peasants who with firearms each have the firepower previously reserved for spellcasters.

No, that's the point. He can't.

He can't get from the vague idea that this explosive powder can be used to hurl projectiles to a "quickly trained army of conscripted peasants with firearms" quickly. He probably can't do it in a lifetime. He probably can't even imagine that the first crude device some crackpot demonstrates to him can be turned into something you can pass out to common soldiers.
It was a long way from the first crude devices even to the matchlock.


thejeff wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:

On the other hand, a ruler who realizes the value of technological solutions in a magical world can have a quickly trained army of conscripted peasants who with firearms each have the firepower previously reserved for spellcasters.

No, that's the point. He can't.

He can't get from the vague idea that this explosive powder can be used to hurl projectiles to a "quickly trained army of conscripted peasants with firearms" quickly. He probably can't do it in a lifetime. He probably can't even imagine that the first crude device some crackpot demonstrates to him can be turned into something you can pass out to common soldiers.
It was a long way from the first crude devices even to the matchlock.

I have to agree with Thejeff...

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value."
- Marshal Ferdinand Foch [Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre] (circa 1911)

Just because a technology exists doesn't mean everyone immediately thinks of how to apply it. Though of course the fact that there is to be a Prestige Class for the gunslinger means a large enough group has formed who use guns to have practices they pass on to aprentices.


Final Fantasy video game RPG's had guns by part 7, so it's not a totally unheard of concept in my neck of the woods. I'm just so used to swords and sorcery, battle axes and longbows representing the status quo of fantasy warfare.

Even if there are historical precedents that say otherwise, guns just feel way too modern for my personal tastes. Depending on the setting, I still allow them in games for players who want to use them, however.


Jörmungandr wrote:


Just because a technology exists doesn't mean everyone immediately thinks of how to apply it. Though of course the fact that there is to be a Prestige Class for the gunslinger means a large enough group has formed who use guns to have practices they pass on to aprentices.

Yeah, in Golarion the technology has been developed far enough be useful. There's no way it would remain exclusive to Alkenstar for long.

It seems to me that Paizo is trying to walk a tightrope with guns by making them advanced and common enough to be useful as a primary weapon for a class, but primitive and rare enough not to affect the rest of the world. That's what breaks my sense of disbelief.


As I said before, I don't mind the gunslinger but I realise its not everyones cup of tea, the thing I do find silly however, are arguments that they shouldn't exist because they break suspension of disbelief. Wizards, clerics and proven dieties only have effect on the world where it is interesting but a few guys with guns in a magical null zone break the fourth wall and game?


Jörmungandr wrote:
As I said before, I don't mind the gunslinger but I realise its not everyones cup of tea, the thing I do find silly however, are arguments that they shouldn't exist because they break suspension of disbelief. Wizards, clerics and proven dieties only have effect on the world where it is interesting but a few guys with guns in a magical null zone break the fourth wall and game?

There's some truth in that. It's hard to say to much about what should break suspension of disbelief since it's very subjective. It may be because we're all used to fantasy literature with all the historical trappings plus magic and gods? It goes all the way back to King Arthur or to various mythologies. We expect that.

Adding guns into that mix, but still keeping the rest of the setting the same doesn't have the same precedent. There's plenty of precedent for fantasy and guns, but it generally works by adding magic to a time period where we'd expect guns.

Sovereign Court

sunshadow21 wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:
Presumably the research isn't being funded for the common man, but rather for the rich and powerful who can afford it. I'm sure you'll agree that nobody wants too much power in someone else's hands, so as a rich and powerful duke I might hire a wizard, but I might also buy a firearm for myself.
For yourself, maybe, but for all of your guards and your army, highly doubtful, and even for you, it would be more of a toy and show piece than a practical weapon.

What we're talking about is how firearms grows in a fantasy world. A first generation gunsmith might have a half dozen sales in a year, but as his work improves and he teaches his skills to another generation the techniques of the art would improve. Perhaps the next generation of gunsmith can build guns for cheaper and then the market opens up. Suddenly a king can afford to equip his elite guard with the weapons. Perhaps in another couple generations there's an entire army using the weapons. What I'm saying is that early on the weapons will be to expensive for the anyone but the rich and/or crazy, but in a few generations you could have a classic arms race that will up demand and lower the price.


Well I guess sometime in the future of Golarion they will have reached a technological level approaching or even surpassing ours, hopefully with some more mystical elements, but eventual consequences of technology added to a game don't really factor in since the game is held frozen in a snapshot of time (or what seems to be a fifty-ish year period).

Sovereign Court

Golarion already has a technological level surpassing our own. Both in the past with it's floating cities and in the present in Numeria. I don't like ray guns in my fantasy but fewer people seem to object to that then firearms which are usually historically accurate to the technology currently available.

51 to 100 of 128 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Community / Gamer Life / Gamer Talk / Anyone else have a mental block with guns in fantasy? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.