Flurry of Blows Survey: How do you play at home?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Cool. Thank you Seraphimpunk!

Master Arminas


I play it as one weapon and voted as such.

Though I can say, upon closer inspection I did learn that even wielding a weapon in two hands during a flurry does not allow for 1 1/2 strength to be added to damage, which was an incorrect assumption on my part. That said, in my experiences with D&D, this has never come up, as I have yet to see a weapon bound monk in any of my games.

Something mildly interesting is how using a two handed weapon in a flurry would interact with power attack? I know I would personally rule the 1 1/2 bonus myself in my own home games just because of the way power attack is worded. I could easily see the verdict being the other way in a home game as well.


By RAW you still get +3 per -1. It's the weapon being two-handed that counts, not your strength bonus with it.


We've always used single weapon flurry, and I don't think it ever occurred to any of us that it could be treated differently. Seems clear enough when they say flurries are from any variety of hands, feet, etc. We'll continue to do that regardless of subsequent "ruling" (I bought a game book from Paizo, I didn't become their thrall).


Fizzle wrote:

In any game i would happen to GM, the monk would have to A. use flurry like twf, meaning two weapons, and B. the enchantment would be on the monk himself, in the case of Magic Fang etc.

Therefore, if he wants to enchant his UAS, it would be one casting of whatever enchantment spell. This seems to be the most common sense approach, rather than having to specify "I cast GMF on my left fist, then my bum and finally my nose hairs"

Aaaaand now I want to stat a White Haired Witch/Monk who uses his elongated nose hairs to fight with...

Edited because of crappy formating.

Scarab Sages

I've never had a monk use weapons - I think I'll just avoid the headache by saying a monk can only flurry with unarmed strikes.


Assume that your monks now fail massivly against anything with DR not over come by their Innate abilities unless they use up at leat i think +3 of their AoMF bonuses on enhancents.


When will the monk stop whining about DR? to surpass every DR in existence (aside from vorpal and epic) you just need an amulet of mighty fist +5. You'r telling me that you are not going to get it?


Depends on how bad I want to have another property with my attacks.

If I'm a low str build I need Agile or Guiding to help my to hit, if the campaign is heading into a direction i know that 9/10 fights will have undead bane or holy might be good. Speed could be nice for getting off extra attacks.

So in short no I might not get a +5 amulet.


Especially since that +5 amulet cost 2.5 times the cost of a +5 weapon and locks you out of an amulet of natural armor


Jal Dorak wrote:
I've never had a monk use weapons...

This. If we must have a martial arts class, then I want it to be unarmed Kung Fu style instead of using some cheesy weapons.

I used two houserules to make this work:
- reduce any DR by one per Level of Monk
- Unarmed Strikes are considered primary natural attacks

Worked well enough.


Dekalinder wrote:
When will the monk stop whining about DR? to surpass every DR in existence (aside from vorpal and epic) you just need an amulet of mighty fist +5. You'r telling me that you are not going to get it?

Some problems with this:

1) I am not entirely sure that the AoMF actually gets past DR the way a magic weapon does.

2) That locks you out from having any weapon properties. These are worth a great deal, at least an extra 4d6 damage if you want to quantify it that way.

3) The cost is exorbitant. You cannot afford a +5 AoMF at the same level at which a +5 weapon is available.

The problem is not that it isn't doable, the problem is what else you have to give up in order to get it that other combat classes do not have to abandon.

Silver Crusade

Dekalinder wrote:
When will the monk stop whining about DR? to surpass every DR in existence (aside from vorpal and epic) you just need an amulet of mighty fist +5. You'r telling me that you are not going to get it?

1. First let me sell that arm and a leg so I can even afford it.

2. Yay, now that the Amulet is full because of the +5, I can no longer get the flavorful enhancements that would actually help make my monk look like the monk I really want to play.

The second point leading to my other point of contention. The monk needs some way to support his own monk flavor besides magickal bling that runs counter to monk flavor from the very start.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Dekalinder wrote:
When will the monk stop whining about DR? to surpass every DR in existence (aside from vorpal and epic) you just need an amulet of mighty fist +5. You'r telling me that you are not going to get it?

There is a difference of opinion on this. I support the idea that an amulet of mighty fists bypasses damage reduction as if it were a magic weapon. However, James Jacobs has said that he doesn't believe it does. Besides his own personal dislike for enhancement bonuses bypassing DR, he points out that the amulet of mighty fists is not a weapon. The Core Rulebook (under Damage Reduction in the Glossary, page 568 in the PRD) says

Quote:
weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment.

The amulet of mighty fists is a wondrous item that grants unarmed strikes and natural weapons an enhancement bonus (up to +5) or special weapon properties (either/or, or a combination, but not to exceed +5). It is based off of the greater magic fang spell, which has this qualifier:

Quote:
This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.

Greater magic weapon has pretty much the same qualifier, just replacing 'natural weapon or unarmed strike' with 'weapon'. While I think that it should, there is no consensus on the part of the community that the amulet of mighty fists is treated as a weapon. If it does play according to the GMW and GMF rules, then it doesn't bypass damage reduction, aside from DR/magic.

Master Arminas


Our campaign is in the higher levels. The only time a monk would use a monk weapon instead of his fists is because he's dealing with a monster with DR. In such case, because of the way we've always interpreted the rules, I allow him to equip one adamantine/silver/etc weapon and flurry with it. I don't feel it unbalances the game at all because if he were to do that on a regular basis, he would be losing out on the higher damage his unarmed strikes gives. Furthermore, he has enough other disadvantages to other classes to offset any advantage from having to only buy one silver nunchuck instead of two.

I believe the highest monk weapon damage is a whopping D6. It does give him a good flavor...for the most part, he uses his hands, but when the job calls for it, he's got a few other tools he can pull out.


I'm 100% sure that an amulet of mighty fist let you bypass DR lika an equally enchanted weapn. I'ts a permanent bonus once worn for 24h so it should. On the matter of special proprierty, the static +x it's always better than extra elemental damage dice, everybody who cared to do the math know that. On the cost, it's a few K more than what a 2WF warrior/rogue/ranger spend. And that's what you should compare, with other 2WF. I'm tired of all this comparing apple with oranges. A monk is a 2WF, because he attacks 7 times in a full attack routine and benefits for his enhance 7 time per routine, like a 2WF do.


Only a Sith deals in absolutes, my padawan. LOL I am happy that you are 100% sure and certain of yourself in this area. That being said, James Jacobs has stated that he does not believe the amulet of mighty fists allows a creature using it to bypass DR with his unarmed strikes or natural weapons. Yes, he isn't a 'rules guy' per se. But until we get an answer from Sean K. Reynolds or Jason Bulmahn (the real answer is still up in the air).

Master Arminas


I'm not sure why there is a debate. The wording for FOB is pretty clear:

Quote:
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

Given that, if the monk uses a weapon in one hand, he can use it for his Normal Base Attack Bonus strikes and makes up for the remainder with an unarmed attack (or attacks). If he doesn't use a weapon then it's all unarmed, some strikes with one part of the body and some from another but effectively the same.


Dekalinder wrote:
I'm 100% sure that an amulet of mighty fist let you bypass DR lika an equally enchanted weapn. I'ts a permanent bonus once worn for 24h so it should.

Good for you, but that's not RAW.

Dekalinder wrote:
On the matter of special proprierty, the static +x it's always better than extra elemental damage dice, everybody who cared to do the math know that.

Sadly, it's not better than the static +x AND the extra property.

Dekalinder wrote:
On the cost, it's a few K more than what a 2WF warrior/rogue/ranger spend.

Yes, but it's capped, so that the TWFer gets up to +8-9 equivelant in each weapon at top level, and they get two weapons with different properties made of different materials. True, you cannot sunder or steal the monk's unarmed strike, but that's not a huge advantage.

Dekalinder wrote:
And that's what you should compare, with other 2WF.

That's what I do.

Dekalinder wrote:
I'm tired of all this comparing apple with oranges. A monk is a 2WF, because he attacks 7 times in a full attack routine and benefits for his enhance 7 time per routine, like a 2WF do.

So, let's look at the comparison with a TWF fighter:

Monk (unarmed): 7 attacks starting at +18 +Str Bonus +5 AoMF +1 Weapon Focus; Threat on 19-20; Damage 2d10 + Str bonus +5 AoMF
Without Strength bonus that's +24 19-20/x2 for 16 average damage without criticals.

Fighter (short swords): 7 attacks starting at +18 +Str Bonus +5 Weapon Enhancement +2 Greater Weapon Focus +4 Weapon Training; Threat on 17-20; Damage 1d6 + Str Bonus + 4 Greater Weapon Specialisation + 4 Weapon Training + 5 enhancement bonus +weapon properties.
Without Strength bonus that's +29 17-20/x3 for 16.5 + weapon properties without criticals.

Ranger/Barbarian/Paladin TWFing WITHOUT using their special abilities would be: 7 attacks starting at +18 +Str Bonus +5 Weapon Enhancement +1 Weapon Focus; Threat on 17-20; Damage 1d6 + Str Bonus + 5 enhancement bonus +weapon properties.
Without Strength bonus that's +24 17-20/x2 for 8.5 + weapon properties without criticals.

Now the weapon properties probably add +14 damage (about 4d6 worth) if you assume two +9 weapons at level 20. That takes the fighter to 30.5 damage without criticals, and the Ranger/Barabarian/Paladin to 22.5 without criticals. All of them beat the monk without strength being factored in, and the monk is likely to have lower strength than many.

Then factor in those situations where full attacking is not an option and the monk drops yet further behind the pack...


You didn't consider a few things.
- +4d6 damage for weapon proprierty? becouse monster do not have elemental resistance. When you surpass level 10 nearly any moster has at least resistance 10 to a couple elements. It's never worth to enchant extra damage dice as a static enhanc. May be good on situational ability like arcane pool, but for the flat price is never worth.

- 2 +9 weapon costs 162 x 2 = 324k. A single AoMF +5 is 125K. 200K of gold difference.

- you have included in calculation a lot of thing for the fighter, like gloves and exotic weapon, but the monk has nothing, like for example style feat like dragon (half STR damage on each strike at level 20 is like 5 more damage per hit, doubled on the first). Also you didn't factor that the fighter when PA gets +2 dmg on main weapon and +1 on secondary, while monks gets +2 on each one.

If you do everything right you will find that the difference is really small if you consider that the fighter is supposed to be the best at what he does.


Dekalinder wrote:

You didn't consider a few things.

- +4d6 damage for weapon proprierty? becouse monster do not have elemental resistance. When you surpass level 10 nearly any moster has at least resistance 10 to a couple elements. It's never worth to enchant extra damage dice as a static enhanc. May be good on situational ability like arcane pool, but for the flat price is never worth.

Uh, how about an axiomatic holy weapon? Deals +2d6 against creatures with an evil alignment and +2d6 against creatures with a chaotic alignment. Not too many things have resistances against that!

Or a evil outsider bane holy weapon? Adds +2d6 damage against creatures with an evil alignment and another +2d6 against evil outsiders?

Or . . . you get the idea. Not all damage enhancing special weapon properties are governed by elemental resistances.

Master Arminas


Dekalinder wrote:

You didn't consider a few things.

- +4d6 damage for weapon proprierty? becouse monster do not have elemental resistance. When you surpass level 10 nearly any moster has at least resistance 10 to a couple elements. It's never worth to enchant extra damage dice as a static enhanc. May be good on situational ability like arcane pool, but for the flat price is never worth.

Last time I checked most creatures do not have resistance to bane or holy or vicous. The 4d6 is an approximation - it could be MORE against some foes, less against others. It could be vorpal or it could be another property. The point here though is that THE MONK DOES NOT HAVE IT.

Dekalinder wrote:
- 2 +9 weapon costs 162 x 2 = 324k. A single AoMF +5 is 125K. 200K of gold difference.

But this isn;t about the cost, it's about the fact that the monk does not get the option of paying extra for more bonuses - he is capped at +5. Let's face it with WBL at 20th level the question of cost is largely academic; the question of the capping at +5 is not.

Dekalinder wrote:
- you have included in calculation a lot of thing for the fighter, like gloves and exotic weapon,

Actually, I haven't - the fighter gets the x3 multiplier on short swords (not I specifically said short swords earlier) from his Weapon Mastery class feature which he gets at 20th level. I assumed no gloves of dueling (which I have seen in other comparisons) or any other such tricks open to the fighter and not the monk, I restricted the comparison to only the feats/abilities/equipment I think that both would reasonably be expected to have.

Dekalinder wrote:
but the monk has nothing, like for example style feat like dragon (half STR damage on each strike at level 20 is like 5 more damage per hit, doubled on the first).

True, I have not, but then the monk doesn't get as many feats to play with as the fighter. Even if he has, he has a lower strength to begin with. If he is a strength-focussed monk his AC will suffer for it. I copuld have assumed a lot more on the fighter's side like gloves of dueling, but didn't. We can pull them out if you like, but the comparison will come out the same.

Dekalinder wrote:
Also you didn't factor that the fighter when PA gets +2 dmg on main weapon and +1 on secondary, while monks gets +2 on each one.

I didn't factor in Power Attack at all, but considering the monk is already a -5 to hit behind the fighter I can't see him taking the hit unless the target is so easy to hit as to make no difference.

The -5 to hit adds up to a great deal. As a rule of thumb +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage.

Dekalinder wrote:
If you do everything right you will find that the difference is really small if you consider that the fighter is supposed to be the best at what he does.

If you read things properly you might see that I not doing things so wrong as you make out, and you might see that the monk is still behind the other combat classes even when they are not using their special 'thing'.

The problem is that fighting unarmed is supposed to be the monk's special ability, their special 'thing'. Yet with it they are basically not as good as the other combat classes are, and without it they really suck badly. I don't want the monk to be able to dish more damage than the fighter per round; I do want them to be able to hit their target and deal enough damage to be noticed - ie be as good or slightly better than a paladin not smiting or a ranger not up against their favoured enemy, for example.


dabbler wrote:
Let's face it with WBL at 20th level the question of cost is largely academic; the question of the capping at +5 is not.

But the monk can get some other nice magic items for that difference of 210k, let's say two Manuals of Gainful exercise (+4), thereby increasing his Str by 8 giving +4/+4. Or some other Tomes or Manuals or girdles or headbands or whatever.

The fighter might have more options for nice magical weapons but there are so many nice magic items available that the monk will have some nice things as well.


Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
dabbler wrote:
Let's face it with WBL at 20th level the question of cost is largely academic; the question of the capping at +5 is not.
But the monk can get some other nice magic items for that difference of 210k, let's say two Manuals of Gainful exercise (+4), thereby increasing his Str by 8 giving +4/+4. Or some other Tomes or Manuals or girdles or headbands or whatever.

<Facepalm> LIKE BONUSES DO NOT STACK. A tome gives a +4 Inherent bonus, so getting two only gives you +4 and wastes the money. Sure there is other stuff you can buy, and not much of it helps with hitting your target and damaging it.


JCServant wrote:

Our campaign is in the higher levels. The only time a monk would use a monk weapon instead of his fists is because he's dealing with a monster with DR. In such case, because of the way we've always interpreted the rules, I allow him to equip one adamantine/silver/etc weapon and flurry with it. I don't feel it unbalances the game at all because if he were to do that on a regular basis, he would be losing out on the higher damage his unarmed strikes gives. Furthermore, he has enough other disadvantages to other classes to offset any advantage from having to only buy one silver nunchuck instead of two.

I believe the highest monk weapon damage is a whopping D6. It does give him a good flavor...for the most part, he uses his hands, but when the job calls for it, he's got a few other tools he can pull out.

For later reference, there are several d8 weapons and a d10 weapon, the sansetsukon, which also has blocking and disarm. This in no way detracts from your point, though, unless you're trying a flurry of disarms, I guess.


Flurry of Disarms? NICCEEE. May as well take 20 with all those rolls!

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
blahpers wrote:


For later reference, there are several d8 weapons and a d10 weapon, the sansetsukon, which also has blocking and disarm. This in no way detracts from your point, though, unless you're trying a flurry of disarms, I guess.

but they require an extra feat for proficiency or dips, since monks aren't proficient with them normally. So that's another pain.


blahpers wrote:
JCServant wrote:
I believe the highest monk weapon damage is a whopping D6. It does give him a good flavor...for the most part, he uses his hands, but when the job calls for it, he's got a few other tools he can pull out.
For later reference, there are several d8 weapons and a d10 weapon, the sansetsukon, which also has blocking and disarm. This in no way detracts from your point, though, unless you're trying a flurry of disarms, I guess.

Only the temple sword is a weapon the monk is actually proficient in, for 1d8 damage and 19-20 threat range. All the others can be monk weapons (you can flurry with them) but require a feat to invest in them to get proficiency.

I would have to say that a feat that enabled a monk to flurry with a non-monk weapon (Unorthodox Flurry from Dragon Magazine was good for this) would be a great help: you could take a weapon with a decent threat range and actually do some damage with it with your flurry of blows. I don't think that Paizo have re-released a feat like that, though.


Nope your best be is a dip into crusader cleric and then take crusaders flurry.

Or a three level weapon master dip and lvl 6 sohei.

Or my new favorite way to get a legal 1 weapon flurry that only cost for enhancements once. 7 lvls dragoon and 6 sohei. Not usable in PFS but for anyone else going that high you can now flurry with a lance as a double weapon and any magic affects both ends. Plus the Sohei's mounted abilities actually function well with dragoon.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

they should just make Monk Schools. each school gets certain monk weapons. It would make more sense. The new monk weapons are often not worth the exotic weapon proficiency to a monk, and a monk is usually the only one looking to take them. there are better marital weapons that can't be used in a flurry out there that the other classes use already. Or just give monks Simple Weapons + Monk Weapons group. makes it easy to expand proficiency: just add it to the monk weapon group.


Seraphimpunk wrote:
Or just give monks Simple Weapons + Monk Weapons group. makes it easy to expand proficiency: just add it to the monk weapon group.

This is the best way of doing it, IMHO.


Dabbler wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
Or just give monks Simple Weapons + Monk Weapons group. makes it easy to expand proficiency: just add it to the monk weapon group.
This is the best way of doing it, IMHO.

This

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