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Rapid Grappler for Three Grapple checks?


Rules Questions

Andoran

So this seems like it should be a fairly obvious "yes", but just to check...

If you have Rapid Grappler (and the Greater Grapple prereq), can you make three grapple checks per round? That is, on standard, one move, and one swift?
Greater Grapple specifically spells out "This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round" while Rapid Grappler doesn't, but it seems to me that if you made a standard already and used the move action to make your second grapple (assuming success on the check), that you'd still trigger the swift. Obviously, this wouldn't be to maintain the grapple but to do other grapple-related actions (e.g. move half speed in a grapple).

Andoran

Where I'm going with this is the Body Bludgeon barbarian rage power. Seems to me if you had greater grapple and rapid grappler feats and could therefore make three grapple checks per round, you could make three body bludgeon attacks per round.

Andoran

Hold on... you can always use a standard action to take a move action. Therefore, you could make a move action to maintain a grapple (Greater Grapple) thereby triggering Rapid Grappler, then use your standard action to make a move action to maintain a grapple and trigger Rapid Grappler again. That's 4 grapple checks in one round! Can't be right.


Can't take two swift actions in the same turn.

Keep in mind that Greater Grapple can only be used to maintain a Grapple, not initiate one. But yes, you could Grapple (Initiate as a Standard), Maintain (Move) -> Maintain (Swift), all in once turn.

Andoran

Rathyr wrote:

Can't take two swift actions in the same turn.

Keep in mind that Greater Grapple can only be used to maintain a Grapple, not initiate one. But yes, you could Grapple (Initiate as a Standard), Maintain (Move) -> Maintain (Swift), all in once turn.

Ah, right. Forgot about the swift action bit. Thanks.


If you want 4 Grapples per round... Maneuver Master monk

Sweeping Maneuver (Ex) wrote:
At 11th level, a maneuver master can make two combat maneuvers as a standard action, as long as neither maneuver requires the maneuver master to move. He may perform two identical maneuvers against two adjacent enemies, or he may perform two different combat maneuvers against the same target.

Anyway...

Body Bludgeon wrote:
Benefit: While raging, if the barbarian pins an opponent that is smaller than her, she can then use that opponent as a two-handed improvised weapon that deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage, assuming the opponent is sized Small. Larger or smaller creatures used as a bludgeon deal damage based on their size using this base damage. A size Tiny creature deals 1d6 points of damage, a size Medium creature deals 1d10 points of damage, and so on. The barbarian can make a single attack using the pinned opponent as part of the action she uses to maintain the grapple, using her highest attack bonus. Whenever the barbarian hits using the pinned opponent as a weapon, she deals damage to her target normally, and the grappled opponent used as a bludgeon also takes the same damage she dealt to the target. If the pinned opponent is unable to resist being pinned for any reason, the barbarian can use that opponent as an improvised weapon without grappling or pinning the opponent, until the creature is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, at which point the creature becomes useless as an improvised weapon.

You only maintain once per round.

Greater Grapple wrote:
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

And Rapid Grappler's swift is only made after you maintain.

Nice idea though, wish it had worked.

And before anyone jumps down my throat about monk-barians. Monks don't lose their class features if they become nonlawful. :p

Edit: Just thought of this. Cleaving Finish will allow you to get more attack rolls per round with Body Bludgeon... seems like a big investment though.

Andoran

Regarding Maneuver Monk:
Would be great, but I have to be a 10th level Barbarian to get Body Bludgeon, so 11 levels of monk is out of the pictures. Good call though.

Regarding the "only maintain once per round":
I see that technically it only says "part of the action she uses to maintain" but I think it'd be pretty silly to rule that additional grapple checks (which take the same amount of time/roll/etc) wouldn't allow you to do the same thing, as all of the other grapple actions (move, damage, pin) execute on a maintained grapple, and the second grapple check from greater grapple is intended to give you additional grapple related actions. Taken another way, the feat says "you only need to succeed at one of these checks", but doesn't say anything about not being able to opt for to maintaining checks.
Aside from that, it seems to me the clause "as part of the action she uses to maintain the grapple" is more intended to indicate that you don't need to make a separate grapple check after maintaining, not to indicate that it's restricted to the "maintaining" check. I think it's just something they overlooked in the wording, not an intentional limitation. If they wanted to disallow using body bludgeon on a grapple check after the grapple has already been maintained, they would have clarified that. In the end it boils down to: A body bludgeon takes the same amount of time (actions) as a regular grapple check. In fact, the attack itself really takes less since in that single check you are making both the maintain check *and* the attack (two separate rolls). Ruling that additional grapple checks to do additional body bludgeons (which take no more time/action than a grapple check to move, damage, or pin an opponent) doesn't make sense.

However, I realize that that's all up to personal interpretation. For something more concrete, the biggest kicker comes at the end of the body bludgeon definition. It says, "If the pinned opponent is unable to resist being pinned for any reason, the barbarian can use that opponent as an improvised weapon without grappling or pinning the opponent" If you have already succeeded at maintaining the grapple that round, then the opponent is unable to resist being pinned (its pin has maintained), and you can still use it as a weapon.

Thanks for the input though. Not trying to jump down your throat-- just trying to explain myself.

Andoran

Salabrian wrote:
However, I realize that that's all up to personal interpretation. For something more concrete, the biggest kicker comes at the end of the body bludgeon definition. It says, "If the pinned opponent is unable to resist being pinned for any reason, the barbarian can use that opponent as an improvised weapon without grappling or pinning the opponent" If you have already succeeded at maintaining the grapple that round, then the opponent is unable to resist being pinned (its pin has maintained), and you can still use it as a weapon.

Looking at this again, I see I may have overlooked the cleaner way to go about this. Assuming success in all the checks, and assuming you have greater grapple and rapid grappler, this would be the best sequence:

(Starting the first turn after successfully initiating a grapple)
1st: Grapple Check (move action): Pin the target, execute body bludgeon as part of the "maintain grapple" action
2nd: Grapple Check (swift action): Tie up the target, rendering it more difficult to escape in future rounds
3rd: Attack (standard action): Use improvised weapon as a standard attack (opponent cannot resist pin because pin has already been maintained).
Granted, this is only two attacks per round, since you’re using one to tie up, but as high as my CMB will be, chances are good that the “tie up” will be inescapable (the DC will be higher than 20 + target’s CMB. After that point, I will no longer have to make grapple checks and will just be able to use the target as a normal improvised weapon, allowing me to move and attack or full attack normally. This sequence doesn’t have such murkiness around rules interpretation and also probably works out better in my favor in terms of action economy.


I'm sure the intent was never to grant multiple attacks/round at full BAB. (The exception to this being an incapacitated target, which you are able to get a full attack with -- notice the difference here, that these attacks use your iterative progression)

Further, a pinned target can still resist your pin. This line is specifically talking about someone who has been tied up(beyond their ability to escape), or is otherwise helpless. (It doesn't mean "didn't resist your pin this round")
(Although it's not the biggest deal to have maintained as a move, BB, then use your standard to BB again - I just don't see it as RAW)

Also, I agree about the disparity about only being able to accomplish BB once per round vs multiple grapples, but again, I'm confident that it is RAI.
You have to understand that once you've pinned an opponent, any grapple check maintains the pin, so those grapples don't additionally have to be to pin, but can be to move or damage, this versatility also suggests that BB is only once per round, as BB is essentially a free attack (damaging 2 creatures).
Also, no they wouldn't have clarified that, they are very frugal about the space they use to print things. I haven't seen this issue come up before, and FAQs don't come everyday.

I'd love to get more opinions in here.

Andoran

Archaeik wrote:

I'm sure the intent was never to grant multiple attacks/round at full BAB. (The exception to this being an incapacitated target, which you are able to get a full attack with -- notice the difference here, that these attacks use your iterative progression)

Further, a pinned target can still resist your pin. This line is specifically talking about someone who has been tied up(beyond their ability to escape), or is otherwise helpless. (It doesn't mean "didn't resist your pin this round")
(Although it's not the biggest deal to have maintained as a move, BB, then use your standard to BB again - I just don't see it as RAW)

Also, I agree about the disparity about only being able to accomplish BB once per round vs multiple grapples, but again, I'm confident that it is RAI.
You have to understand that once you've pinned an opponent, any grapple check maintains the pin, so those grapples don't additionally have to be to pin, but can be to move or damage, this versatility also suggests that BB is only once per round, as BB is essentially a free attack (damaging 2 creatures).
Also, no they wouldn't have clarified that, they are very frugal about the space they use to print things. I haven't seen this issue come up before, and FAQs don't come everyday.

I'd love to get more opinions in here.

Hmm. Yes, I agree on all accounts. Looks like the best/only way to do multiple attacks with the pinned opponent is to get them tied up (past the difficulty threshold) so that you can wield them as normal for iterative attacks.

You have won your case, good sir! :) Well said.

This does bring up another interesting question though. What happens if you successful tie up an enemy, but it's not past their ability to escape on a very good roll? You're no longer making checks to maintain a grapple, so (if we go with what's been said so far) you wouldn't trigger BB that way, but the opponent is also still able to resist being pinned (attempt to escape the ropes), so you can't just automatically use them as an improvised weapon. If this is how it works, it would potentially be to your own detriment to tie up an enemy instead of just keeping them in a regular pin, which doesn't seem right. Pinned- you still can do a BB. Tied up but not beyond threshold- you can't. Giving a more "severe" state of grappled shouldn't be taking away your abilities. How should this work?

(also, just so you know, I will be carrying around lots of potions of enlarge person so that I'll be able to use this on medium sized creatures. This is a one-shot "campaign" we're doing, so that kind if expenditure is feasible.)


Okay, "tied up but they could escape"...
AFAIK, they still count as pinned. The DC to escape is fixed, so you don't keep making rolls.
I would assume the intent is that you can continue making BB attacks (and I'd say full attacks) until they actually do manage to escape. (at which point, I think you'd need to restart the grapple)

Really, it's a point of semantics, "unable to resist", because they can't as long as they remain tied.
Although, you can even argue that a creature tied up beyond its ability to escape can still "resist" by thrashing about, so this may be something of a GM fiat area.

Andoran

Archaeik wrote:


Although, you can even argue that a creature tied up beyond its ability to escape can still "resist" by thrashing about, so this may be something of a GM fiat area.

If my GM says that a creature tied up past its escape threshold can still "resist" by thrashing about, I think I'll just pick up the GM and use him as an improvised weapon.

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