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Why is everyone complaining about the Zen Archer being "broken"?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Just take 3 levels of vivisectionist with the extra discovery feat, grow two extra limbs, and dual-wield longbows. That's OBVIOUSLY what the dev team intended!

:P

Actually, does this work? Can you dual-wield longbows with 4 arms and TWF? If so, that's totally going to be my next character! Behold "Bowro," the mighty Vivisectionist 3 / Fighter Archer 17:

4 iterative attacks +3 offhand attacks + 1 rapid shot + 1 many shot + 1 haste = 10 attacks per round!

EDIT: Good point about the extra discovery feat, Cartmanbeck! Thanks!

Andoran

Although I haven't seen anything about the zen archer being broken, my own experience is that they get rather dull rather quickly. A player in one of my groups played a zen archer (he was hoping for something like 3.5's order of the bow), and he was just able to deal so much damage (so. many. arrows.), from so far away (before the rest of the party can have their fun), and was so hard to hit (great saves, great AC), I actually think it's a fun archetype at lower levels, but at those higher levels it can get a little tedious.

Also, I don't think you could do that thing with the four arms, but it couldn't hurt to try! Just make sure not to tell your GM first, he might spoil it.


brreitz wrote:

Although I haven't seen anything about the zen archer being broken, my own experience is that they get rather dull rather quickly. A player in one of my groups played a zen archer (he was hoping for something like 3.5's order of the bow), and he was just able to deal so much damage (so. many. arrows.), from so far away (before the rest of the party can have their fun), and was so hard to hit (great saves, great AC), I actually think it's a fun archetype at lower levels, but at those higher levels it can get a little tedious.

Also, I don't think you could do that thing with the four arms, but it couldn't hurt to try! Just make sure not to tell your GM first, he might spoil it.

"Broken" as in, it doesn't work as written because the Devs clarified that flurry works exactly like TWF, i.e. you need two weapons to flurry. Per RAW, the Zen Archer needs to dual-wield bows to flurry.

The Zen archer as it was intended to work is otherwise awesome!

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Bardic Dave wrote:

Just take 4 levels of vivisectionist, grow two extra limbs, and dual-wield longbows. That's OBVIOUSLY what the dev team intended!

:P

Actually, does this work? Can you dual-wield longbows with 4 arms and TWF? If so, that's totally going to be my next character!

You don't even need FOUR levels of Viv, you take two levels of it to get the first Discovery, then take Extra Discovery at your next odd level. So you can keep getting fighter levels. Let's see what the two-weapon fighting rules say here.

Two-weapon fighting combat wrote:

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Two-weapon fighting feat wrote:

Two-Weapon Fighting

Prerequisite: Dex 15.

Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.

combat wrote:
Projectile Weapons: Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
vestigial arm wrote:
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).

So, let's put this all together:

-Vestigial arm gives you two arms that work just as well as your normal arms.
-A ranged weapon such as a bow requires two hands to operate. You have four, so you can operate two bows at once.
-If you wield a weapon in your off-hand (let's call it the left hand) then you gain an extra attack in a full attack action.
-You take a -4 penalty to each attack if you take the Two-Weapon Fighting feat since a bow is definitely not considered a light weapon.

Considering all of these things together, it sounds like this would work. You could take the Improved and Greater TWF feats later on to get more extra attacks also. You would still only get one extra attack from the Rapid Shot feat, and you'd only be able to benefit from Manyshot a single time per round also.

If you went with Alchemist 2/Fighter X:
Level 1 feat: Point-blank Shot
Level 2 Discovery: Vestigial Arm
Level 3 feat: Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arm)
Level 3 (fighter 1) bonus feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 4 (fighter 2) bonus feat: Precise Shot
Level 5 feat: Rapid Shot

So at level 5 you'd be making three attacks in a full-attack action, BAB would be +4, which would be completely offset by the -4 penalty from TWF, and you'd have ANOTHER -2 to each attack from Rapid Shot. Honestly doesn't seem ridiculously overpowered to me, and would be fun for RPing. :)

Cheliax

Bardic Dave wrote:
brreitz wrote:

Although I haven't seen anything about the zen archer being broken, my own experience is that they get rather dull rather quickly. A player in one of my groups played a zen archer (he was hoping for something like 3.5's order of the bow), and he was just able to deal so much damage (so. many. arrows.), from so far away (before the rest of the party can have their fun), and was so hard to hit (great saves, great AC), I actually think it's a fun archetype at lower levels, but at those higher levels it can get a little tedious.

Also, I don't think you could do that thing with the four arms, but it couldn't hurt to try! Just make sure not to tell your GM first, he might spoil it.

"Broken" as in, it doesn't work as written because the Devs clarified that flurry works exactly like TWF, i.e. you need two weapons to flurry. Per RAW, the Zen Archer needs to dual-wield bows to flurry.

The Zen archer as it was intended to work is otherwise awesome!

text:

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using {b]a{/b} bow

not when using 2 bows

its sohei that needs 2 bows and can add rapid shot and many shot to the routine.

unfortunately after level like 7 or so a sohei beats out a zen archer


Zen Archers aren't broken, they're on par with the other archer classes...which also aren't broken.

If you see people claim otherwise, it's because many people on this board have no freaking clue what broken actually looks like. I mean, hell, there was even a thread here once complaining that Ninja, the THIRD WEAKEST CLASS IN THE GAME (Monk and Rogue being the weakest ones) being more powerful than the wizard!

Because...wait for it...ninja can go invisible for 2 rounds at a time at level 1. Nevermind that's their thing and Wizard can go invisible at level 1 (Vanish spell) anyway...

Never take anything this board says about what is overpowered to heart, very often it's just wrong.


Name Violation wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
brreitz wrote:

Although I haven't seen anything about the zen archer being broken, my own experience is that they get rather dull rather quickly. A player in one of my groups played a zen archer (he was hoping for something like 3.5's order of the bow), and he was just able to deal so much damage (so. many. arrows.), from so far away (before the rest of the party can have their fun), and was so hard to hit (great saves, great AC), I actually think it's a fun archetype at lower levels, but at those higher levels it can get a little tedious.

Also, I don't think you could do that thing with the four arms, but it couldn't hurt to try! Just make sure not to tell your GM first, he might spoil it.

"Broken" as in, it doesn't work as written because the Devs clarified that flurry works exactly like TWF, i.e. you need two weapons to flurry. Per RAW, the Zen Archer needs to dual-wield bows to flurry.

The Zen archer as it was intended to work is otherwise awesome!

text:

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using {b]a{/b} bow

not when using 2 bows

its sohei that needs 2 bows and can add rapid shot and many shot to the routine.

unfortunately after level like 7 or so a sohei beats out a zen archer

LINKY LINK LINK

According to Jason:

"That said.. this causes some problems that came to light today as this bounced around the office, namely that it was not common knowledge that it was supposed to work this way and has gone to print without this change. This is obviously a concern and one that I intend to investigate. There is also the problem of the Zen Archer, which clearly does not work with these rules (or rather, it clearly, as its intent, violates these rules). There is also the concern that this system is a bit of a pain to figure out, which is something that does concern me greatly."

EDIT: Or are you suggesting that even my ridiculous work around doesn't let Zen archers work by RAW? If so, you might be on to something…


StreamOfTheSky wrote:


Never take anything this board says about what is overpowered to heart, very often it's just wrong.

So true, so very true.


Just so we're all clear here: I didn't mean "broken" as in overpowered! I meant "broken" as in doesn't work by RAW. And I was being tongue-in-cheek about it.

Cheliax

Bardic Dave wrote:


LINKY LINK LINK

According to Jason:

"That said.. this causes some problems that came to light today as this bounced around the office, namely that it was not common knowledge that it was supposed to work this way and has gone to print without this change. This is obviously a concern and one that I intend to investigate. There is also the problem of the Zen Archer, which clearly does not work with these rules (or rather, it clearly, as its intent, violates these rules). There is also the concern that this system is a bit of a pain to figure out,...

thats fine and dandy for normal FoB.

Read zen archers FoB.

a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow

zen archers cant even flurry with 2 bows. it can only flurry with a bow. singular. not "with bows" plural.

specific overrides general

Zen archers fob with a single bow, as per their specific wording


Name Violation wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:


LINKY LINK LINK

According to Jason:

"That said.. this causes some problems that came to light today as this bounced around the office, namely that it was not common knowledge that it was supposed to work this way and has gone to print without this change. This is obviously a concern and one that I intend to investigate. There is also the problem of the Zen Archer, which clearly does not work with these rules (or rather, it clearly, as its intent, violates these rules). There is also the concern that this system is a bit of a pain to figure out,...

thats fine and dandy for normal FoB.

Read zen archers FoB.

a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow

zen archers cant even flurry with 2 bows. it can only flurry with a bow. singular. not "with bows" plural.

specific overrides general

Zen archers fob with a single bow, as per their specific wording

Interesting… you're the only person I've see make that argument. It's a good one, and I'm inclined to agree with you. Unfortunately, you've been overruled by Jason Bulmahn.

EDIT: Actually, I think Jason is right on this one. It says you can make a Flurry of Blows with a bow, but doesn't describe what that means. To find out how it might work, you have to go to the text for Flurry of Blows, where you find:

"he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon… as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat"

Zen archer simply inserts bow into the above text, but does nothing to remove the two-weapon fighting feat part.

The two weapon fighting feat directs you to the following text:
LINK
Here, you find the following:

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack"

So what you're left with is a Zen Archer who can make a flurry of blows with a single bow, but can't actually elect to take any of the extra attacks because of the "as if using Two-Weapon Fighting" part. It's a pretty broad stretch to suggest that the simple inclusion of the word "a" in front of the word "bow" effectively rewrites FOB. If that were the case, Zen archers shouldn't even take the -2 penalty on flurry at all.


Oh, as in doesn't work?

Ok then. Yeah, Zen Archer in PF Society is currently broken. It cannot function. At all. Period. Dot.

It may or may not become broken for home games as well depending on what this great meeting of the minds churns out whenever they actually issue an FAQ/errata/statement about what's actually going to happen to flurry of blows.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Oh, as in doesn't work?

Ok then. Yeah, Zen Archer in PF Society is currently broken. It cannot function. At all. Period. Dot.

It may or may not become broken for home games as well depending on what this great meeting of the minds churns out whenever they actually issue an FAQ/errata/statement about what's actually going to happen to flurry of blows.

Hmm, perhaps I should have been clearer. My question was rhetorical, and was merely meant as a cheeky way of pointing out that the Zen archer can work by RAW if one goes to the ludicrous extreme of dipping vivisectionist 3. That's all!


In that case...how about Synthesist instead of Alchemist? Might be able to pull it off with two bows with only a 1 level dip. :)


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
In that case...how about Synthesist instead of Alchemist? Might be able to pull it off with two bows with only a 1 level dip. :)

Nice! Good point!

Cheliax

but zen archer cant flurry with 2 bows


Name Violation wrote:
but zen archer cant flurry with 2 bows

I disagree. Zen Archer says you can flurry while using a bow. TWF says you can make an extra attack with a weapon in your offhand. If you're using a bow in your mainhand(s), it doesn't preclude you from also using another bow in your offhand(s).

EDIT: Although, really this "build" (if you can call something as silly as what I'm talking about a build) would be better with a fighter or sohei anyways, so that you can benefit from rapid shot and manyshot.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
brreitz wrote:
A player in one of my groups played a zen archer (he was hoping for something like 3.5's order of the bow), and he was just able to deal so much damage (so. many. arrows.), from so far away (before the rest of the party can have their fun), and was so hard to hit (great saves, great AC)

So he was hoping to suck a lot, and found himself being effective instead??

Shadow Lodge

Name Violation wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
brreitz wrote:

Although I haven't seen anything about the zen archer being broken, my own experience is that they get rather dull rather quickly. A player in one of my groups played a zen archer (he was hoping for something like 3.5's order of the bow), and he was just able to deal so much damage (so. many. arrows.), from so far away (before the rest of the party can have their fun), and was so hard to hit (great saves, great AC), I actually think it's a fun archetype at lower levels, but at those higher levels it can get a little tedious.

Also, I don't think you could do that thing with the four arms, but it couldn't hurt to try! Just make sure not to tell your GM first, he might spoil it.

"Broken" as in, it doesn't work as written because the Devs clarified that flurry works exactly like TWF, i.e. you need two weapons to flurry. Per RAW, the Zen Archer needs to dual-wield bows to flurry.

The Zen archer as it was intended to work is otherwise awesome!

text:

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using {b]a{/b} bow

not when using 2 bows

its sohei that needs 2 bows and can add rapid shot and many shot to the routine.

unfortunately after level like 7 or so a sohei beats out a zen archer

actually sohei is better then a zen archer all around.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
TheSideKick wrote:
actually sohei is better then a zen archer all around.

Which is one of several reasons the clarification of the FoB rules was a good thing.

Zen Archer now gets their multiple bow attacks (up to 7) as a different ability in place of normal FoB... their attack bonuses for this separate ability follow the bonuses other monks would get when fighting with two weapons.

The Sohei, on the other hand, follows the normal (clarified) FoB rules... meaning that they can only use half of their attacks with the bow and the rest must be made as unarmed strikes. Unlike the Zen Archer they CAN apply Rapid Shot and/or Manyshot to get additional bow attacks (up to 6).

Thus, the Sohei is NOT better than the Zen Archer all around... which seems entirely appropriate to me. It would be ridiculous for the Zen Archer to lose the normal attack benefits of monks in order to gain better benefits with a bow... but the Sohei to retain all of the normal attack benefits AND have bow benefits even better than the Zen Archer's.

Shadow Lodge

sorry cd, your are assuming they have errata'd the class already, which they havent. so as of right now a sohei is better then a zen archer.

but even after this "clerification" a sohei is still better then a zenarcher if only because they get to wear armor and still use non monk weapons while flurrying.

also they used both the sohei and zenarcher as examples of how this "clerification", they said something to the extent of, will not effect the sohei or zen archer after we have time to review the ruling.


Bardic Dave wrote:
So what you're left with is a Zen Archer who can make a flurry of blows with a single bow, but can't actually elect to take any of the extra attacks because of the "as if using Two-Weapon Fighting" part. It's a pretty broad stretch to suggest that the simple inclusion of the word "a" in front of the word "bow" effectively rewrites FOB. If that were the case, Zen archers shouldn't even take the -2 penalty on flurry at all.

I think you could also make an argument that Zen Archers take -4, since the weapon being used to make the off-hand attacks isn't light. There isn't really a right answer, I guess, since literally TWFing with one weapon makes nonsense of the TWF rules.

Name Violation wrote:

a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow

zen archers cant even flurry with 2 bows. it can only flurry with a bow. singular. not "with bows" plural.

specific overrides general

Zen archers fob with a single bow, as per their specific wording

Insisting that "a" in "Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow" MUST be a restrictive "a" (meaning "exactly one") is an extreme reach that produces utterly silly results when applied to other comparable wordings - unless you think that a character using TWO weapons that they're not proficient with at the same time doesn't take the nonproficiency penalty - after all, only "a character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls." A weapon. Singular. Not "weapons".


So if they poo'd on flurry to make sure that TWF fighters can keep up with monks (cause 2 weapons cost more than 1 weapon...but less than just an MFAmulet), do you think they will double back on cestus and brass knuckles?

I know paizo does a decent job of getting the price tagged content out there in a timely manner, sometimes even at the cost of mistakes at the printer, editing, and otherwise... but man that is a long time to sit on flurry and then just poop. 2, or three years? At least with a redaction to monks using UAS damage with cesti and brassies (like it says, plain as day, before being retconned) they could then use a UAS and Brassie (same dmg as UAS) in a flurry. And the cesti/brassi might be augmented by a MFamulet, lol.

So you need more than one weapon to flurry, and zen archers now cannot flurry. Can a fighter with quick draw attack, quick draw his sword to offhand, and take his TWF attack?


Also, with a 20 ft rope, knotted at one end, can I flurry with it as a half orc beastmaster chain fighter empty hand monk 1/fighter 1 as both a spiked chain and whip? Taking quick draw to change my grip, from 10 foot whip, with excess rope on the side, to a spiked chain, two handed.

Also, could you TWF with quickdraw and a 1 2 handed weapon?

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
TheSideKick wrote:

sorry cd, your are assuming they have errata'd the class already, which they havent. so as of right now a sohei is better then a zen archer.

but even after this "clerification" a sohei is still better then a zenarcher if only because they get to wear armor and still use non monk weapons while flurrying.

also they used both the sohei and zenarcher as examples of how this "clerification", they said something to the extent of, will not effect the sohei or zen archer after we have time to review the ruling.

More precisely, they made a firm ruling... and then said they would review it. I also didn't see anything about interpretations allowing the Sohei to get all attacks with one weapon being preserved... JUST the Zen Archer.

As to the Sohei being better because of armor and other weapons... subjective, but not at issue. The point was that the Sohei is no longer a clearly better ARCHER... as they were under interpretations which said they could make all FoB attacks with a bow (like ZA) AND add Rapid Shot and Manyshot on top of that (unlike ZA).

The Sohei being better at archery than the Zen Archer clearly makes no sense and the clarification 'fixes' that (for the interpretation under which it was broken).


TheSideKick wrote:
a sohei is still better then a zenarcher if only because they get to wear armor and still use non monk weapons while flurrying.

I can't see anything in the Sohei archetype that lets them flurry while in armour. Is that an errata I've missed somehow?

Sohei get armour proficiency, but I can't see where it says they can keep features that are usually prevented by armour.


What is this nonsense about Sohei wearing armor? Yes, they're proficient with Light Armor, but that doesn't mean it will stack with their (unmodified) Monk AC bonus (just as it won't stack if a regular monk buys the feat for proficiency).
Also, ditto what MS just said above me. Nothing in the text suggests that a Sohei in armor can still flurry. His proficiency stipulation doesn't change, even though he gains a proficiency he didn't have before.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Neo2151 wrote:

What is this nonsense about Sohei wearing armor? Yes, they're proficient with Light Armor, but that doesn't mean it will stack with their (unmodified) Monk AC bonus (just as it won't stack if a regular monk buys the feat for proficiency).

Also, ditto what MS just said above me. Nothing in the text suggests that a Sohei in armor can still flurry. His proficiency stipulation doesn't change, even though he gains a proficiency he didn't have before.

Yah it is actually pretty funny. They allow sohei to wear lightarmor through proficiency, but dont include anything that would make them retain wis to ac/cmb, monk armor bonus or flurry of blows. That makes the proficiency a terrible choice for him, because without flurry and the rest of his AC bonus, he cant really do anything.

They should probably errata that part too, to include a paragraph that says sohei counts as a normal monk wearing no armor whenever he wears light armor. But unless that gets errataed its pretty stupid.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

People.

Please stop using terms like "Everyone" in your post. Just because you feel an issue is important doesn't mean the rest of us put a "stop the presses" priority on it.

Be honest and post for yourself.

Shadow Lodge

CBDunkerson wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
More precisely, they made a firm ruling... and then said they would review it. I also didn't see anything about interpretations allowing the Sohei to get all attacks with one weapon being preserved... JUST the Zen Archer.

sorry this is not a ruling, this is a clerification. also they did directly say in a post on one of the 300 threads with 2000 post each, which im not going to sort through to prove you wrong, that both the zen archer AND the sohei, which states "At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. ", will be fixed. any rueling that affects the zen archer will also have to affect the sohei since they both are in the same boat. and nothing states that rapid and many shot cant stack with FOB.

so yeah.

Quote:


As to the Sohei being better because of armor and other weapons... subjective, but not at issue. The point was that the Sohei is no longer a clearly better ARCHER... as they were under interpretations which said they could make all FoB attacks with a bow (like ZA) AND add Rapid Shot and Manyshot on top of that (unlike ZA).

subjective but true. at level one as a human i can have point blank, rapid, still use my fists in combat for (twf) flurry and say screw my wisdom to stack dex for a higher ac and to hit at levels 1-5, until you can use wisdom.

Quote:
The Sohei being better at archery than the Zen Archer clearly makes no sense and the clarification 'fixes' that (for the interpretation under which it was broken).

but if this logic rang true, then many of the archetypes that make rogues worthless would not exsist. rangers, bards, and (some other class) can have trap finding if they choose to have it, almost or more skill points with class feature to back up those skills (bard), and bring more to the table then just raw damage ( tracking, buffing/debuffing spell casting). so the sohei can be better then the zen archer, not liking that doesnt change that fact.

Quote:


I can't see anything in the Sohei archetype that lets them flurry while in armour. Is that an errata I've missed somehow?

yes they can, but thats a different thread, so lets not digress this one any more then it already is.


TheSideKick wrote:

I can't see anything in the Sohei archetype that lets them flurry while in armour. Is that an errata I've missed somehow?

yes they can, but thats a different thread, so lets not digress this one any more then it already is.

Care to give a quote or a faq reference? because if we go by what is written in the book then he cant.

Shadow Lodge

nicklas Læssøe wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:

I can't see anything in the Sohei archetype that lets them flurry while in armour. Is that an errata I've missed somehow?

yes they can, but thats a different thread, so lets not digress this one any more then it already is.

Care to give a quote or a faq reference? because if we go by what is written in the book then he cant.

do a search and lets not digress this thread anymore... thanks


TheSideKick wrote:

any rueling that affects the zen archer will also have to affect the sohei since they both are in the same boat. and nothing states that rapid and many shot cant stack with FOB.

so yeah.

No it doesn't have to. The new ruling could be, for example:

Add this to the last line of the Zen Archer's flurry of blows ability: "A zen archer may ignore the requirement of wielding two weapons when performing a flurry of blows, and can take all flurry of blows attacks with just the bow"

(Or something akin to that, I can't write in legaleze).

There's nothing that forces them to make the same errata to the sohei and the zen archer.

Shadow Lodge

i guess if they were ok with the s*@* storm that would arise as a result of a blatent hand wave to the sohei making it the most useless monk archetype in the books, since you cant flurry with a 2 handed weapon, bow, or reach weapon... which is the entire point in the archetype.


TheSideKick wrote:
i guess if they were ok with the s~@@ storm that would arise as a result of a blatent hand wave to the sohei making it the most useless monk archetype in the books, since you cant flurry with a 2 handed weapon, bow, or reach weapon... which is the entire point in the archetype.

Uhm... The sohei still got a lot of other benefits. Mount, flurrying in armor, and both the spear, monk weapons and throwing weapons groups have one-handed weapons. And you CAN still flurry with two-handed weapons - it just takes a little work to set up. With a bow, you can make unarmed attacks in melee while shooting at enemies at the same time.

Cheliax

It could work eventually, but right off the bat you are -6 (TWF, rapid)... add in over half the time people have cover (it's tough to avoid cover penalties before improved precise) and deadly aim if you want damage up, you can be at -12 regularly (-8 typically).

It would be quite funny though :).


A two-armed zen archer can use a bow in his hands. He can flurry with the bow to deliver ranged attacks as either his main-hand attacks or his off-hand attacks.

As his other set of attacks (either off-hand or main-hand), he can use his unarmed strike (or another wielded weapon such as a blade boot).

I realise that this is entirely contrary to the intention of the zen archer's abilities. However I believe that it is the logical conclusion from the recent "clarification".


stringburka wrote:
Uhm... The sohei still got a lot of other benefits. Mount, flurrying in armor, and both the spear, monk weapons and throwing weapons groups have one-handed weapons. And you CAN still flurry with two-handed weapons - it just takes a little work to set up. With a bow, you can make unarmed attacks in melee while shooting at enemies at the same time.

Um, again - Where are you getting this? Nothing in the write-up says you can ignore the "monk may not flurry in armor" stipulation.

Andoran

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Axl wrote:

A two-armed zen archer can use a bow in his hands. He can flurry with the bow to deliver ranged attacks as either his main-hand attacks or his off-hand attacks.

As his other set of attacks (either off-hand or main-hand), he can use his unarmed strike (or another wielded weapon such as a blade boot).

I realise that this is entirely contrary to the intention of the zen archer's abilities. However I believe that it is the logical conclusion from the recent "clarification".

That's how I see the Sohei and other monk types using a two-handed weapon working... but NOT the Zen Archer. The existing Zen Archer text says that they CAN'T make unarmed strikes or other weapon attacks as part of their FoB. The Zen Archer's FoB is limited to bows only, and thus appears to be an exception allowing them to make all FoB attacks with one weapon... a special bonus which they gain in exchange for giving up FoB for all other attack types, but which some people interpreted all monks as having by default.


The 'recon' isn't even official yet...


Neo2151 wrote:
stringburka wrote:
Uhm... The sohei still got a lot of other benefits. Mount, flurrying in armor, and both the spear, monk weapons and throwing weapons groups have one-handed weapons. And you CAN still flurry with two-handed weapons - it just takes a little work to set up. With a bow, you can make unarmed attacks in melee while shooting at enemies at the same time.
Um, again - Where are you getting this? Nothing in the write-up says you can ignore the "monk may not flurry in armor" stipulation.

There's a thread on this. Basically:

1. APG p. 72 says archetype entries replace entries with the same name in the core class.
2. Sohei's got a Weapons & Armor Proficiency entry that state their proficiencies.
3. The limitation on monks using FoB with armor is in their Weapons & Armor Proficiency entry. The FoB entry does not mention it.
4. Due to 1 and 2, Sohei's do not use the monk's Weapon & Armor Proficiency entry.
5. Due to 3 and 4, Sohei's do not have any limitation on when to use FoB in armor or encumbrance.

The other armor-restricted abilities (evasion, AC bonus and speed bonus (which the Sohei do not get IIRC) all state the limitation in their own entry.

They can even take the feats (or multiclass) to get heavy armor, though that will cause them to lose evasion and other abilities.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I had a Zen Archer and Archer Sytle Ranger in a 2 player game I ran. The Zen Archer was no more powerful than the ranger. They were quite evenly matched I found in both combat(archery) and out of combat stuff. The ranger did better with out a bow than the Zen Archer did.

Personally I find Archery over powered in general. By the time you hit the high levels there aren't many defense against it. There are feats to get around cover, bypass armor, over whelm DR, allows you to threaten, and not provoke AoO when threatened. All left is fickle winds.


It sounds like the dev team said the clarification doesn't work with zen archer and sohei, but the way the archetypes read, it seems like sohei is the only one where there's a conflict.

Zen archer says that it acts like flurry of blows except in these special circumstances, which includes the use of the range weapon. That would sound to me like consecutive attacks with the same ranged weapon is the exception they are talking about.

I can see the problem with sohei, as it doesn't make any exceptions to how flurry interacts with it.


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Bardic Dave wrote:

"Broken" as in, it doesn't work as written because the Devs clarified that flurry works exactly like TWF, i.e. you need two weapons to flurry. Per RAW, the Zen Archer needs to dual-wield bows to flurry.

The Zen archer as it was intended to work is otherwise awesome!

I didn't read the rest of the thread so this may have been brought up, but because it is a clarification and not a retcon (dev's words not mine) Zen Archer hasn't changed at all:

PFSRD wrote:
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon).

Since we have to assume that when they wrote Zen Archer they knew how FoB worked (yeah, raise your hand if you believe that) they added the "even though it is a ranged weapon" so you can do it even though it isn't a melee weapon, let alone two melee weapons.

As written, Zen Archer hasn't changed a lick.


Shifty wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:


Never take anything this board says about what is overpowered to heart, very often it's just wrong.

So true, so very true.

This has been my experience with "Broken" threads. Magic Missile used to hide the identity of potential suspects:

"Bbbbbbut... But.. Magic Missile is so borked! It never misses! It should be at least a 5th level spell!" WTFBBQTABLEFLIP

*reads spell*

...
...
...

*disappears from thread*

There's a gazillion ways to counter an archer build. Natural landscape(trees, boulders, etc) being one of the most common in outdoor encounters. You're welcome.

Cheliax

Josh M. wrote:
Shifty wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:


Never take anything this board says about what is overpowered to heart, very often it's just wrong.

So true, so very true.

This has been my experience with "Broken" threads. Magic Missile used to hide the identity of potential suspects:

"Bbbbbbut... But.. Magic Missile is so borked! It never misses! It should be at least a 5th level spell!" WTFBBQTABLEFLIP

*reads spell*

...
...
...

*disappears from thread*

There's a gazillion ways to counter an archer build. Natural landscape(trees, boulders, etc) being one of the most common in outdoor encounters. You're welcome.

I heard that bows are terribly easy to both sunder and disarm. *shrug*

Grand Lodge

I don't think the double-wielded bows works...anatomically...but...meh


The Drunken Dragon wrote:
I don't think the double-wielded bows works...anatomically...but...meh

I agree! The whole thing is ridiculous! That's why I'm asking the question.

Osirion

Unmitigated wrote:


I heard that bows are terribly easy to both sunder and disarm. *shrug*

First you have to get close enough. I can generally outrun anyone who tries, if any are left after I pepper them with arrows.

Then you have to get through my CMD and AoO (unless you have Improved Disarm).
It is possible to disarm me or sunder my bow, but not terribly easy.


Bardic Dave wrote:
Unfortunately, you've been overruled by Jason Bulmahn.

Fortunately for me, Mr. Bulmahn doesn't run my game, and I'm not involved in organized play. Whew! :)

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