I was thinking of playing a fighter/monk in our next campaign who focused on tripping or grappling, but it seems like a niche that is short lived. You can't grapple huge monsters, and high lvl monsters cmds become amazingly high. Vs. humanoids they seem to maintain their edge, but the monsters seem to have much higher CMD's than AC at higher lvls.
Is there any way to make a character like this work at higher lvls?
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It's possible but any non-humanoid foe with a CR higher than 10 is unlikely to be a viable target. Also factor in which monsters cannot be tripped or grappled at all and it doesn't seem like a winning proposition.
With a monk I find a better solution is to find effects that you can stack onto your attacks, causing foes to make repeated and hopefully varied saves with each of your punches. This way when you flurry you can get in 5-6 attacks a round, the odds of them failing a save even if it's only on a 1-3 range start to become realistic with that many attacks a round.
I say you go for it any ways, try it out and see what happens. I like playing iconoclasts and sometimes what seems illogical works out incredibly well (my goblin bard and halfling barbarian come to mind). I think the main reason this happens is by design, it's not nearly so dramatic to have you pin a dragon to the ground and then have your allies turn it into a pin cushion than for you all to battle valiantly against it as it moves and swoops and attacks back. Still I'd try it out and see where it takes you :)
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At lower levels, potions of enlarge person will be nice (which will grant an effective +2 to CMB, plus ability to grapple Huge creatures.
At higher levels, I guess Beast Shape III is a nice choice. You get to become Huge, so that's +4 CMB, and can try grapple Colossal creatures. Plus, lots of legs to prevent tripping and being overrun.
In other words, tell your party buffers to prepare the buffs you want. And remember not all high-level monsters are that big.
Lore Warden and Barbarians do this better than any body else.
And why can't you grapple huge monsters?
-James
Hmm. I guess I was thinking 3.x again. You can grapple any size creature in pathfinder? That is cool, although most big creatures CMD's are ridiculously high.
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I was thinking of playing a fighter/monk in our next campaign who focused on tripping or grappling, but it seems like a niche that is short lived. You can't grapple huge monsters, and high lvl monsters cmds become amazingly high. Vs. humanoids they seem to maintain their edge, but the monsters seem to have much higher CMD's than AC at higher lvls.
Is there any way to make a character like this work at higher lvls?
First off beating CMD's is easy and if you build a PC especially to do a particular trick you will almost never fail.
If you want to grapple and be able to grapple anything (and I mean anything) Tetori archetype. We are currently play Rite publishings Coliseum morpheuon and we are 17th level. We have a Tetori monk that takes every thing down to a pin in 1 round. Thats the good part, bad part for a controller your stuck handling one individual.
Linked:
Tetori
If you want more RP flavoring but doable...
Take 5 levels of Barbarian before going monk. I agree straight monk is better but this PC has flavor
Barbarian (Brutal Pugilist)-5 / Monk (tetori)-15
- Ex-Barbarians
A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. She retains all other benefits of the class.
Linked:
Brutal Pugilist
Lore Warden and Barbarians do this better than any body else.
Nice. Never looked at the Lore Warden before. That's a good edge. So what type of Barbarian makes a good CMBer?
Whipshire,
Tetori's a great archetype! That one would seem effective at any level of game play. Do you think adding Lore Warden into the mix could strengthen the archetype? Or is straight Tetori better as a single class build.
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Whipshire,
Tetori's a great archetype! That one would seem effective at any level of game play. Do you think adding Lore Warden into the mix could strengthen the archetype? Or is straight Tetori better as a single class build.
Well PF was greating at making dips into other classes not as optimal as in 3.5 Straight Tetori is a monster. I do not know Lore Warden but I will pull up PF SRD and take a look. When it comes to dipping I look at a few things.
1. How high a level will the game go? (will a dip even effect what I lose at higher levels in my main class) if so...
2. What I am losing at higher levels vs what I gain from the dip, is it worth it?
3. Does pushing back my main class level abilities due to the dip effect the power of my PC at the levels we will be playing?
Well PF was greating at making dips into other classes not as optimal as in 3.5 Straight Tetori is a monster. I do not know Lore Warden but I will pull up PF SRD and take a look. When it comes to dipping I look at a few things.
Assume the game is going from 1 to 20 (most of our games go that long).
Apply the levels in the other class at optimum times, so that you get the abilities when you want. Try to balance it so that there is a low failed grapple chance if you can. Personally I want to be effective every round with a grappler.
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A lore warden has the following class features.
Scholastic (Ex)
Lore wardens gain 2 additional skill ranks each level. These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills. All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.
- Dip extra skills are nice
This ability replaces the lore warden’s proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.
- Dip losing armor means nothing to a monk so this is good.
Expertise (Ex)
At 2nd level, a lore warden gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat, even if he would not normally qualify for this feat.
- Dip bonus feat is nice and I like this one to help with a monks AC.
This ability replaces bravery 1.
- Dip this is no great loss in my book
Maneuver Mastery (Ex)
At 3rd level, a lore warden gains a +2 bonus on all CMB checks and to his CMD. This bonus increases to +4 at 7th level, +6 at 11th level, and +8 at 15th level.
- Dip so with a 3 level dip you gain a +2 to your grapple att/def, pretty good but from what i seen the extra +2 is not a Huge difference.
This ability replaces armor training 1.
- Dip again no big loss here.
* You gain +3 BAB from fighter but in regards to a Tetori - A tetori uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine CMB and CMD for grappling.
This is what you lose at the end of Tetori a great ability but not many games go to 19th level.
Iron Body (Su)
At 19th level, as a move action, a tetori can make his tissues ultra-dense for 1 minute as the iron body spell by spending 3 points from his ki pool.
This ability replaces empty body.
** The last thing to look at is the push off of Tetori abilities depending on what levels you dip at.
All in all its not a bad dip but I would stay straight Monk.
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Another Fighter dip is...
Unarmed Fighter
Linked:
Unarmed Fighter
for your bonus style feat take the Snapping Turtle style and follow the rest of the feats in that chain.
Your deft unarmed style allows you to shield your body from harm.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +1 or monk level 1st.
Benefit: While using the Snapping Turtle Style feat with at least one hand free, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC.
Snapping Turtle Clutch (Combat)
Your unarmed style allows you to turn your opponent’s attack into an opportunity.
Prerequisite: Snapping Turtle Style, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3 or monk level 3rd.
Benefit: While you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, the shield bonus the style grants to your AC applies to your CMD and touch AC. Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee attack while you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, you can use an immediate action to attempt a grapple combat maneuver against that opponent, but with a –2 penalty.
Snapping Turtle Shell (Combat)
Your guarding hand is almost magical in its skill at deflecting incoming blows.
Prerequisite: Snapping Turtle Clutch, Snapping Turtle Style, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: While you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, the shield bonus the style grants to your AC increases to +2, and your enemies take a –4 penalty on critical confirmation rolls against you.
* You gain +3 BAB from fighter but in regards to a Tetori - A tetori uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine CMB and CMD for grappling.All in all its not a bad dip but I would stay straight Monk.
Wouldn't you stack any BAB to your monk CMB and CMD bonus? its part of the formula for both CMB and CMD. So its additive. I think a 3 lvl dip into lore warden might be quite beneficial. Adding bonuses to hit are incredibly important to any melee fighter. You would lose Iron Body, but it comes very late in the game and from 13 to 19 there are no benefits to grapple in the Tetori class. Ah, except ghost touch inescapable grasp bonus, which is nice.
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Wouldn't you stack any BAB to your monk CMB and CMD bonus? its part of the formula for both CMB and CMD. So its additive. I think a 3 lvl dip into lore warden might be quite beneficial. Adding bonuses to hit are incredibly important to any melee fighter. You would lose Iron Body, but it comes very late in the game and from 13 to 19 there are no benefits to grapple in the Tetori class. Ah, except ghost touch inescapable grasp bonus, which is nice.
* You gain +3 BAB from fighter but in regards to a Tetori - A tetori uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine CMB and CMD for grappling.All in all its not a bad dip but I would stay straight Monk.
I do not believe you can exceed your character level for BAB, they would stack but i believe you achieve the same result for grapple but you would have a better BAB for regular attacks with the fighter dip.
Grapple CMB example 10th level PC
Monk - 10 / BAB = +10
Fight - 3 Monk - 7 / BAB = +10
Regular attacks
Monk - 10 / BAB = +7 +2 / Flurry BAB = +8 +8 +3 +3
Fighter - 3 Monk - 7 / BAB = +8 +3 / Flurry BAB = +8 +8 +3
* I believe this is correct.
I agree with you at 19th level the losing Iron Body is not a big deal. Its just how I break down dips, I look at the whole 20 levels.
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This is a feat you want also if your going to be grappling alot.
Body Shield (Combat)
With a sly maneuver, you force a grappled opponent into the path of an incoming attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: As an immediate action while you are grappling an adjacent creature, you can make a grapple combat maneuver check against that creature to gain cover against a single attack. If you are successful and the attack misses you, that attack targets the creature you used as cover, using the same attack roll. You cannot use this feat against a creature grappling you, and the cover you gain ends after the attack you gained cover against is resolved.
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Whipshire,
Tetori's a great archetype!
I tend to like maneuver master myself, but it depends do you want to focus almost entirely on grapples or spread it around to most maneuvers?
-James
I totally agree! I have yet to even play a monk in PF but we have a guy in my group who plays them almost exclusively so I have learned from watching him.
Flowing Monk is awesome as well.
In answer to the Barbarian question.
Str Surge let's you add your Barb level to CMB, once per rage. So awesome if you only need 1 CM per fight.
The ability synergises well with Spell Sunder (Massive ability) and Sunder Enchantment.
So they can be good at any, but sunder is best.
with the revelation that you can grapple somehting of any size I just got a picture in my head of thimbledorf pwent jumping onto the wing of a dragon screaming "I"LL HOLD IT DOWN FOR YA"
Asta
PSY
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A 5 level dip into Lore Warden gives you weapon training 1. With gloves of dueling that gives you weapon training 3. You also get +2 to cmb and cmd at level 3. I think this might be the most productive dip in another class for the Tetori Monk as it gives +5 bonus to your cmd and cmd's as well as the 5 from BAB. Taken at the right times this could be a great bonus.