So I'm playing a game with a 3 person party and our characters are going to be gestalt to make up for the fact that we originally had 5 people. I've decided to keep my original master of many styles monk and just tack another class (probably fighter) onto it.
Since I don't need armor training if I go the fighter route, what's a good archetype to take? Brawler looks pretty good, but dawnflower dervish and two weapon fighting feats would allow something pretty close to a move action and a flurry of blows.
Are there any other really good combinations I'm missing? I'm not necessarily set on fighter, but I feel like it's the best option at this point.
I would go for either Unarmed Fighter or Weapon Master (focussing on unarmed combat) myself.
That said, monk/paladin could work very well indeed with the unarmed strike taken as a divine bond. While it's MAD as hell, you can get away with middling strength and con, and rely on speed and Smite for damage when you need to. 2d10+25 damage, at +char +5 to hit in a flurry? Nasty, and that's without weapon properties from an amulet of mighty fists, like agile because you mased out your dex.
AC will be good, and better when you smite.
Then you have the maneuvers...and dear lord, the saving throws! Divine Grace + best all round saves + Auras making you immune to half the stuff out there, Improved Evasion, PLUS diamond soul? Unstoppable.
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Oooh, monk/fighter sounds good at first but it has the same issues that many martial classes do when you're looking at gestalt, too much in common.
While I'm not saying you can't make it work, the extra feats will make you a powerhouse hand to hand combatant, and while not as wasteful as a Ranger/Fighter or similar builds you're still not getting the most bang for your buck with this build.
Fighter/rogue and monk/druid are both powerful builds that take advantage of gestalt and give you a wide range of options in and out of combat. I also once played a "ninja" who was a monk/sorcerer, on paper he was incredibly powerful but in practise he got slaughtered by a dwarf, lol.
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inquisitor/monk-wicked wis to most stuff
magus/monk-awesome stuff. use kensai or spire defender archtypes
rogue(or ninja)/monk-roll hand full of d6s per attack
cav/sohei-uber mount
barb (invulnerable rager)/monk(martial artist)-try and stop you
alchemist(vivisectionist?)/monk-oh the humanity...
druid/monk-wildshape, Fob, super buff madness
summoner(synthesist?)/monk-you're a monster
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How's your Charisma? If it's even halfway decent (12+) Paladin's another possibility. That's probably too much to hope for, though...
Barring that, either Fighter or Ranger (based on your personal style, mostly) seem like the ways to bet as a non-spellcaster. Unless you wanted to get whacky and go Gunslinger (which would be potentially deadly as all hell as a switch-hitter build, but a bit odd thematically).
Archetype-wise, you're absolutely right that Brawler and Two-Weapon Warrior are your best bets for a Fighter. As a Ranger, Wild Stalker might be amusing, giving many of the advantages of Monk/Barbarian only without the Alignment restrictions, and will potentially get him Pounce at 13th level if he spends a Feat (and 15th level if he does not), and Urban Ranger would let him do the Rogue trapfinder thing.
Yes, a lot of the abilities in a straight gestalt Fighter/Monk build are 'wasted', but really, look at what you get. Here is a sample build, using the core rulebook only (with the exception of gloves of dueling). Now, he is not optimized, but built by my standards of play for what would fit into my game--if I was crazy enough to run gestalt, that is. LOL
Please check my numbers; I put this together pretty quick, so some might be off. Ability scores listed in each spoiler are after magic items and level increases.
Master Arminas
Gestalt Fighter/Monk
Base Ability Scores (20 pt buy): Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 7
Race: Human (+2 to Wis)
Ability Score Increases: Wis +1 (4), Dex +2 (8; 12), Str +2 (16; 20)
5th Fighter/Monk
Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 7
Hit Die (Hit Points): 5d10+10 (44)
Initiative: +2
AC: 19 (flat-footed 16, touch 19)
BAB: +5
Flurry of Blows BAB: +3
Attack: Unarmed Strike +9 (1d8+5, 20/x2)
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +7/+7 (1d8+5, 20/x2)
CMB: +9 (w/o maneuver feats)
CMD: 27 (w/o maneuver feats)
Saves: Fort +7; Ref +7; Will +9
Special Abilities: Bravery +1; Armor Training 1; Weapon Training 1 (Monk +1); AC Bonus +1; Flurry of Blows; Unarmed Strike (1d8); Stunning Fist (DC 16; 5/day); Evasion; Fast Movement (+10’); Maneuver Training; Still Mind; Ki Pool (8); Slow Fall (20’); High Jump; Purity of Body
Skills: Acrobatics (5 ranks) +10/19, Climb (5 ranks) +10, Intimidate (5 ranks) +8, Perception (5 ranks) +12, Sense Motive (5 ranks) +12, Stealth (5 ranks) +10, and Swim (5 ranks) +10
Standard Feats: Extra Ki; Improved Grapple; Spring Attack; Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Fighter Bonus Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Monk Bonus Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows
Items (10,500 gp limit): Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 gp); Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000 gp); Handy Haversack (2,000 gp); Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4,000 gp); 1,500 gp on-hand
10th Fighter/Monk
Ability Scores: Str 16, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 7
Hit Die (Hit Points): 10d10+30 (94)
Initiative: +7
AC: 27 (flat-footed 23, touch 23)
BAB: +10
Flurry of Blows BAB: +8
Attack: Unarmed Strike +18/+13 (1d10+8, 20/x2)
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +16/+16/+11/+11 (1d10+8, 20/x2)
CMB: +19 (w/o maneuver feats)
CMD: 41 (w/o maneuver feats)
Saves: Fort +12; Ref +12; Will +14
Special Abilities: Bravery +3; Armor Training 2; Weapon Training 2 (Monk +2; Crossbows +1); AC Bonus +2; Flurry of Blows; Unarmed Strike (1d10); Stunning Fist (DC 20; 10/day); Evasion; Fast Movement (+30’); Maneuver Training; Still Mind; Ki Pool (12); Slow Fall (50’); High Jump; Purity of Body; Wholeness of Body (10); Improved Evasion
Skills: Acrobatics (10 ranks) +16/38, Climb (10 ranks) +16, Intimidate (10 ranks) +14, Perception (10 ranks) +18, Sense Motive (10 ranks) +18, Stealth (10 ranks) +16, and Swim (10 ranks) +16
Standard Feats: Greater Grapple; Improved Grapple; Improved Initiative; Mobility; Spring Attack; Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Fighter Bonus Feats[/b]: Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike); Improved Grapple; Mobility, Step Up; Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Monk Bonus Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows; Improved Trip; Medusa's Wrath
Items (62,000 gp limit): Ring of Protection +2 (8,000 gp); Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (5,000 gp); Belt of Physical Might +2 (10,000 gp); Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000 gp); Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 gp); Handy Haversack (2,000 gp); Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 (16,000 gp); 1,000 gp on-hand
15th Fighter/Monk
Ability Scores: Str 18, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 7
Hit Die (Hit Points): 15d10+60 (154)
Initiative: +9
AC: 36 (flat-footed 30, touch 30)
BAB: +15
Flurry of Blows BAB: +13
Attack: Unarmed Strike +27/+22/+17 (2d6+14, 20/x2)
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15 (2d6+14, 20/x2)
CMB: +27 (w/o maneuver feats)
CMD: 53 (w/o maneuver feats)
Saves: Fort +16; Ref +17; Will +18
Special Abilities: Bravery +4; Armor Training 4; Weapon Training 3 (Monk +3; Crossbows +2; Light Blades +1); AC Bonus +3; Flurry of Blows; Unarmed Strike (2d6); Stunning Fist (DC 23; 15/day); Evasion; Fast Movement (+50’); Maneuver Training; Still Mind; Ki Pool (15); Slow Fall (70’); High Jump; Purity of Body; Wholeness of Body (15); Improved Evasion; Diamond Body; Abundant Step; Diamond Soul (SR 25); Quivering Palm (DC 23)
Skills: Acrobatics (15 ranks) +23/58, Climb (15 ranks) +22, Intimidate (15 ranks) +20, Perception (15 ranks) +24, Sense Motive (15 ranks) +24, Stealth (15 ranks) +23, and Swim (15 ranks) +22
Standard Feats: Acrobatic Steps; Greater Grapple; Improved Grapple; Improved Initiative; Lunge; Mobility; Nimble Steps; Spring Attack; Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Fighter Bonus Feats: Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike); Greater Weapon Specialization; Improved Grapple; Mobility, Penetrating Strike; Step Up; Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Monk Bonus Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows; Improved Disarm; Improved Trip; Medusa's Wrath
Items (240,000 gp limit): Ring of Protection +4 (32,000 gp); Ring of Sustenance (2,500 gp); Amulet of Mighty Fists +3 (45,000 gp); Belt of Physical Might +4 (40,000 gp); Winged Boots (16,000 gp); Bracers of Armor +6 (36,000 gp); Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000 gp); Goggles of Night (12,000 gp); Handy Haversack (2,000 gp); Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 (36,000 gp); Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (5,000 gp); 4,500 gp on-hand
20th Fighter/Monk
Ability Scores: Str 26, Dex 26, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 26, Cha 7
Hit Die (Hit Points): 20d10+140 (264)
Initiative: +12
AC: 47 (flat-footed 37, touch 39)
BAB: +20
Flurry of Blows BAB: +18
Attack: Unarmed Strike +42/+37/+32/+27 (2d10+23, 19-20/x3)
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +40/+40/+35/+35/+30/+30/+25 (2d10+23, 19-20/x3)
CMB: +42 (w/o maneuver feats)
CMD: 74 (w/o maneuver feats)
Saves: Fort +26; Ref +26; Will +26
Special Abilities: Bravery +5; Armor Training 4; Weapon Training 4 (Monk +6; Crossbows +5; Light Blades +4; Spears +2); Armor Mastery (DR 5/- when wearing armor); Weapon Mastery (unarmed strikes; 20/x3, auto-confirm); AC Bonus +5; Flurry of Blows; Unarmed Strike (2d10); Stunning Fist (DC 28; 21/day); Evasion; Fast Movement (+60’); Maneuver Training; Still Mind; Ki Pool (20); Slow Fall (unlimited); High Jump; Purity of Body; Wholeness of Body (20); Improved Evasion; Diamond Body; Abundant Step; Diamond Soul (SR 30); Quivering Palm (DC 28); Timeless Body; Tongue of the Sun and Moon; Empty Body; Perfect Self (DR 10/chaotic)
Skills: Acrobatics (20 ranks) +32/76, Climb (20 ranks) +32, Intimidate (20 ranks) +30, Perception (20 ranks) +32, Sense Motive (20 ranks) +32, Stealth (20 ranks) +32, and Swim (20 ranks) +32
Standard Feats: Acrobatic Steps; Great Fortitude; Greater Grapple; Improved Initiative; Intimidating Presence; Lunge; Mobility; Nimble Steps; Spring Attack; Toughness; Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Fighter Bonus Feats: Disruptive; Dodge, Greater Penetrating Strike; Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike); Greater Weapon Specialization; Improved Grapple; Mobility, Penetrating Strike; Spellbreaker; Step Up; Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Monk Bonus Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows; Improved Disarm; Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike); Improved Trip; Medusa's Wrath
Items (880,000 gp limit): Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp); Ring of Sustenance (2,500 gp); Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (125,000 gp); Belt of Physical Might +6 (90,000 gp); Winged Boots (16,000 gp); Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp); Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp); Gloves of Dueling (15,000 gp); Goggles of Night (12,000 gp); Handy Haversack (2,000 gp); Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 (36,000 gp); Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (5,000 gp); Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (30,000 gp); Manual of Bodily Health +2 (55,000 gp); Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 (110,000 gp); Manual of Quickness of Action +4 (110,000 gp); Monk's Robe (13,000 gp); Tome of Understanding +4 (110,000 gp); 7,500 gp on-hand
Unless you're really against being a caster, I'd suggest Druid. Doesn't affect BAB, HD, or skill points. But wildshape is very synergistic with the monk.
Otherwise, consider Ranger. Probably TWF combat style, but doesn't have to be. Gives full BAB, 2 more skill points, d10 HD, and some spells to apply your wisdom to.
monk/ninja(scout) would be a nasty mix. Ki from 2 stats, a reason to be mobile
round 1
charge/pounce with sneak attack/vanish on opponent 1
round 2
charge/pounce with sneak attack/vanish on opponent 2
rinse and repeat
(not sure where you will get pounce from, but I think that one of the flavors of monk can get it)
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Unless you're really against being a caster, I'd suggest Druid. Doesn't affect BAB, HD, or skill points. But wildshape is very synergistic with the monk.
This is an excellent point. I'll note that my advice is predicated on you seeming to not want to be a caster, if you're cool with a caster, Druid, Cleric, or Inquisitor are all superb additions to Monk.
Or Bard.
Master Arminas
I played a Monk/Cleric before and it was pretty cool. The Cleric side was more about mystical healing and mastering elements and what not. It was a cool character.
Or Bard.If you've got the Charisma for it, yes.
If you did Dawnflower Dervish Bard for Dervish Dancing, focused entirely on scimitar fighting and gave up on unarmed completely... you could dump str and have a high dex build that also wants wis, cha, and con. So, no worse than a normal monk.
I still don't think it's a good idea, though. Especially since so many of the style feats require use of unarmed strike in some fashion. You'd have Crane and then...what?
How's your Charisma? If it's even halfway decent (12+) Paladin's another possibility. That's probably too much to hope for, though...
Barring that, either Fighter or Ranger (based on your personal style, mostly) seem like the ways to bet as a non-spellcaster. Unless you wanted to get whacky and go Gunslinger (which would be potentially deadly as all hell as a switch-hitter build, but a bit odd thematically).
Archetype-wise, you're absolutely right that Brawler and Two-Weapon Warrior are your best bets for a Fighter. As a Ranger, Wild Stalker might be amusing, giving many of the advantages of Monk/Barbarian only without the Alignment restrictions, and will potentially get him Pounce at 13th level if he spends a Feat (and 15th level if he does not), and Urban Ranger would let him do the Rogue trapfinder thing.
I like the monk/gunslinger idea themewise. Kind of a Kung Fu vibe.
What the heck is a gestalt character/build? Is that just a fancy way of saying multiclass?
Basically, 2 classes combined every level. So instead of being Fighter 1/Rogue 1 at level 2, you're Fighter 1/Rogue 1 at level 1. It generally leads to some insane and incredibly powerful builds.
That being said, Monk/Inquisitor gestalt leads to some craziness.
It's a variant rule from 3E. You can read here.
It's great for small parties, and IME having been in a few gestalt games now, it helps a lot to balance casters and noncasters. For one thing, almost everyone is a caster, which makes the disparity far less a problem. :) But moreover, the higher power of the characters means enemies will either be higher CR (and thus better saves) or gestalt themselves (and thus better saves).
What the heck is a gestalt character/build? Is that just a fancy way of saying multiclass?
In the old AD&D way, yes.
Read across the line for the level of the two classes. Where one of them gets something, the character gets it. Where they both get the same thing, they get the best of the two.
So Fighter|Monk 1 would have 1d10 hit points, +1 BAB, a fighter bonus feat, a monk bonus feat, improved unarmed strike, flurry of blows, stunning fist and saves of +2 Fort/+2 Ref/+2 Will.
To answer a few questions, my stats are pretty broken. I've got a pair of 18s and my lowest stat is a 12 I think.
I had thought of paladin, but I haven't really investigated it. I've played too many rangers as is, so I'll never hear the end of it if I throw ranger into this build.
My basic idea with Monk/Fighter was this:
1) Use master of many styles with crane style for good defense. Add dragon style for extra offense.
2) Add Tiger style and tiger pounce to add power attack without accuracy penalties.
3) Take the dawnflower dervish fighter archetype to get a move + full attack. Combine with tiger pounce to get more accurate power attacks and an extra half move as a swift action. I can now move 30 ft toward an enemy I previously attacked, full attack, and move up to 60 feet away (at 11th level).
4) Combine this ability with snake fang and eventually panther parry. I can now move my speed, provoking along the way, retaliating and making attacks of opportunity where possible. Once I reach my intended target, I can make a full attack, and then use tiger pounce to move half my speed towards someone I made an opportunity attack or retaliatory strike against.
At level 20, this is 135 feet of movement. With combat reflexes, 24 dex, and 24 wisdom, I'm looking at between 7 and 20 attacks. Not only that, I can end my turn in a location that prevents any full attacks against me, or encourage an enemy that has little chance to hit me to make that full attack and eat opportunity attacks.
EDIT: I had another thought. I could use the qinggong archetype to get access to ki leech and blood crow strike. Depending on critical feats, it could either be a hadoken, sonic boom (deafening critical), or solar flare (blinding critical). Kills and criticals would also give me ki back because of ki leech.