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Trying to figure out what the point of a hand crossbow is? Originally thought (based on the name) that the point was that you could fire it in one hand (duh!), but it still requires two hands to load, so you still can't do anything with the hand you freed up. Even Rapid Reload does not mitigate this problem, since the free action to reload still requires two hands, as per the hand crossbow description.
That leaves what? A bad crossbow that you can fire once while having something in your other hand? A bad crossbow that you can use while using a buckler?
I was really looking forward to building a dual-wielding hand crossbowman. And I'm certain I'm not the only one.
So can anyone tell me why the hand crossbow exists? Or is it just for flavor?
Hand crossbows are good for characters with low strength, because they take no penalty to damage like bows do. Also, you can wear a light shield and reload a light crossbow.
If you don't have a Strength penalty, have ability to wield bows, and want to give up a shield, you are probably better off with a bow. It takes up fewer actions, and can do more damage if you have a STR bonus.
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Why does pistols exist? It's not like you can reload it one-handed, anyway, so you might as well use an assault rifle.
I guess being small and sneaky isn't that big of a deal, game mechanically, but I suppose a rogue who wants to get off a quick ranged sneak attack could quickdraw shoot someone with it. But then, they could also use shuriken or daggers and those are probably easier to hide.
I'll go with option B: Mechanically ill-supported flavour (which, if you want to be cynical about it, is par for the course for the crossbow family).
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Because:
Style > Substance.
Way back when it was introduced with the drow, pretty much only for poison delivery. Currently it's rogue-centric: concealable and very useful with sneak attack damage.
No insult, but it's never really been pseudo-medeival gun-fu material.
Edit:Ninja me, will you Lazar?!
Seems mostly for flavour. The hand crossbow is smaller, easier to conceal than a light crossbow, makes sense to be on the rogue list, seems almost designed to be used with poisons, fired from stealth.
This is not a weapon you use in a fair fight with your opponent, this is what you use when you sneak up on your opponent to plant a bolt in their brain stem.
I think it started with the Drow in First Eadition AD&D, as they where the first ones I saw using them, likely for them was crampped spaces where a 2-3' long weapon would hinder them at times. They are good for very cramped spaces, as even a light crossbow has a bow that is about two and a half feet across (This is a guess based on pictures in the Weapons: An International Encyclopedia From 5000 B.C. to 2000 A.D., Updated Edition).
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I guess if you carry two loaded ones with you, you could full-attack TWF style on round 1 of combat, then drop them and switch to something else afterwards.
Like the other two loaded hand crossbows you have strapped to your chest
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As Mark Rosewater (designer of Magic The Gathering) said about the charm artifacts: they are part of the learning process. They are there to let people to learn how the game works, and discover that some things are better than others. This crossbow sucks. Once you realize it, you are ready for the next level.
:P
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I guess if you carry two loaded ones with you, you could full-attack TWF style on round 1 of combat, then drop them and switch to something else afterwards.Like the other two loaded hand crossbows you have strapped to your chest
There you go! Like the first scene with Rick O'Connell in The Mummy, only with crossbows instead of guns.
You keep firing your light crossbow until they get too close, then drop it and quickdraw your two hand crossbows. Fire them, drop them, quickdraw the other pair from behind your back. Fire them, drop them, quickdraw another pair...
I guess if you carry two loaded ones with you, you could full-attack TWF style on round 1 of combat, then drop them and switch to something else afterwards.Like the other two loaded hand crossbows you have strapped to your chestThere you go! Like the first scene with Rick O'Connell in The Mummy, only with crossbows instead of guns.
You keep firing your light crossbow until they get too close, then drop it and quickdraw your two hand crossbows. Fire them, drop them, quickdraw the other pair from behind your back. Fire them, drop them, quickdraw another pair...
I take it back: it's perfect for pseudo-medeival gun-fu!
I never really liked the concept of the 'hand' crossbow, that why I homebrewed a variant, the bracer bow. Essentially, it's a hand crossbow mounted on the wrist, similar to Poison Ivy's weapon of choice in the animated Batman series in the 90's.
Now you can reload with one hand and still have one free.
I never really liked the concept of the 'hand' crossbow, that why I homebrewed a variant, the bracer bow. Essentially, it's a hand crossbow mounted on the wrist, similar to Poison Ivy's weapon of choice in the animated Batman series in the 90's.
Now you can reload with one hand and still have one free.
How so? you can't use your left hand to reload your left brace-bow, and you can't reload it with your right hand if you have a sword.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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How so? you can't use your left hand to reload your left brace-bow, and you can't reload it with your right hand if you have a sword.I never really liked the concept of the 'hand' crossbow, that why I homebrewed a variant, the bracer bow. Essentially, it's a hand crossbow mounted on the wrist, similar to Poison Ivy's weapon of choice in the animated Batman series in the 90's.
Now you can reload with one hand and still have one free.
I'm guessing the idea is that you have a sword in the hand wearing the bracer-bow, and wear a buckler on the opposite arm, using the buckler hand to reload.
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From what I understand, the weapon was historically used by assassins and bodyguards during the Renaissance. The weapons could be easily concealed under a cloak and used to deliver poison from short range or shoot an attacker before they could close on the target.
The weapon does not do a lot of damage as it lacks the force of standard crossbows. That said, as a house rule, I up the damage to 1d6. That sets a nice damage range for the crossbows from 1d6 (hand) to 1d8 (light) to 1d10 (heavy) and puts the weapon on par with a shortbow.
There really isn't any need to... the bulk of the damage for the hand crossbow is intended to come from precision dice and/or poison. It's not intended to be a brute force weapon like it's bigger cousins.F
The weapon does not do a lot of damage as it lacks the force of standard crossbows. That said, as a house rule, I up the damage to 1d6. That sets a nice damage range for the crossbows from 1d6 (hand) to 1d8 (light) to 1d10 (heavy) and puts the weapon on par with a shortbow.
True, but the d6 damage has encourged some of my players to use them for more than sell fodder. Of course making it a cheaper and a simple weapon can do that too.
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Because you can dual wield 2 and use weapon cords. Shoot, drop 1, reload other with rapid reload, drop the reloaded one, swift action to grab the unloaded one and rapid reload the second one. Then at the start of your next turn you can swift action grab the one, fire both, drop one and reload one, so it is more efficient and you can get off more shots per combat than the average light crossbow user. You won't get away with the ability to reload both for free every turn and shoot both every turn, but worked right you'd still get more shots in.
Weapon Cord
Source Advanced Player's GuideWeapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.
By no means would I use this method, but its at least semi viable.
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1. Win initiative.
2. TWF sneak attack.
3. ...
4. profit?
How do the ones strapped to the chest stay loaded? Wouldn't the bolt fall out with movement?
Same question for ossian666, how does the new reloaded hand crossbow stay loaded when you drop it (and let it dangle on a strap) to reload the other one?
How do the ones strapped to the chest stay loaded? Wouldn't the bolt fall out with movement?
Same question for ossian666, how does the new reloaded hand crossbow stay loaded when you drop it (and let it dangle on a strap) to reload the other one?
*semi-hushed tone* Magic.
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How do the ones strapped to the chest stay loaded? Wouldn't the bolt fall out with movement?
Same question for ossian666, how does the new reloaded hand crossbow stay loaded when you drop it (and let it dangle on a strap) to reload the other one?
Thats like asking why your crossbow doesn't break when you drop it or how someone can run in full plate. Because if you nit pick every aspect of the game and run it like its reality then wizards are nothing but weird virgins in robes that think they can cast lightning bolts.
The hand crossbow has a better range than a shuriken or dagger. The rogue does not have shuriken proficiency and the ammunition for a hand crossbow is cheaper than a dagger thus you can have bolts for every occasion while the same for a dagger would be more expensive.
Range isn't that important if you're going for sneak attacks, and if you're aiming at the surprise-round-sneak-attack, you either need quick draw for the crossbow, or EWP for the shuriken. Either way, it costs you a feat, except that you can at least still use the shuriken in that capacity, even without the feat. And if (when) you win initiative, you can full-attack-sneak-attack with shurikens easier than with hand crossbows.
The obvious advantage of the hand crossbow, of course is that you can have it enchanted without worrying about running out, while shuriken are ammunition you could go through awfully fast. This is much less of an advantage if you plan to quick draw your way through a full attack with hand crossbows though.
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Thats like asking why your crossbow doesn't break when you drop it or how someone can run in full plate. Because if you nit pick every aspect of the game and run it like its reality then wizards are nothing but weird virgins in robes that think they can cast lightning bolts.How do the ones strapped to the chest stay loaded? Wouldn't the bolt fall out with movement?
Same question for ossian666, how does the new reloaded hand crossbow stay loaded when you drop it (and let it dangle on a strap) to reload the other one?
Enchantment wizards stopped being virgins a long time ago.
Thats like asking why your crossbow doesn't break when you drop it or how someone can run in full plate. Because if you nit pick every aspect of the game and run it like its reality then wizards are nothing but weird virgins in robes that think they can cast lightning bolts.How do the ones strapped to the chest stay loaded? Wouldn't the bolt fall out with movement?
Same question for ossian666, how does the new reloaded hand crossbow stay loaded when you drop it (and let it dangle on a strap) to reload the other one?
Hmm, I have had crossbows, dropped them and they didn't break. While I don't have full plate, I do have a full set of medeival armor, and friends who do have full plate - you can run in it, you can do forward rolls and get up without too many problems (gracefull - no).
I'm not nit picking every aspect, but I am having trouble seeing how a bolt lying on a groove will stay in place if it is not kept fairly horizontal.
Running with it, making reflex saves, sure, the bolt doesn't fall, but letting it hang down or somehow strapped to a chest, no.
*semi-hushed tone* Magic.*semi-hushed tone* Elven Magic.
*semi-husehd tone* your wrong, it's dwarven magic - elves use bows.
How do the ones strapped to the chest stay loaded? Wouldn't the bolt fall out with movement?
Same question for ossian666, how does the new reloaded hand crossbow stay loaded when you drop it (and let it dangle on a strap) to reload the other one?
The easy way is to use a bolt retaining spring. It is curved piece of metal that the bolt slides under. It puts enough pressure to get the bolt in place, but not enough to prevent it from firing. It is fairly common in modern crossbows, but is not a new idea. I have a paramilitary style crossbow (effectively a light crossbow with a pistol grip) that can retain the bolt under pretty much any condition.
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I guess if you carry two loaded ones with you, you could full-attack TWF style on round 1 of combat, then drop them and switch to something else afterwards.Like the other two loaded hand crossbows you have strapped to your chest
What if it was one guy with six guns?
And for low fantasy games, a shot in the gut of the victim with a sneak attack hand-crossbow in a busy market square from a rogue with the Bleed talent spells a nasty way to go for a hapless target.
The small weapon lending itself to concealment much easier than, say, a light crossbow.
All the joys of staying 30' away, with none of that extra bulk.
The best reason: they count as light weapons for TWF. With rapid reload, an extra arm to have the free hand necessary to reload, TWF and rapid shot you can have more attacks per round than any other weapon combination.
EDIT: Except for the four armed TWF, rapid shot, many shot, dual longbow wielding monstrosity! He can have 9 attacks per round without haste.
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2 levels of vivisectionist to grow an extra arm and reloading is easy.
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*semi-hushed tone* Drow Magic.*semi-husehd tone* your wrong, it's dwarven magic - elves use bows.*semi-hushed tone* Magic.*semi-hushed tone* Elven Magic.
*shudder* yep, Drow magic. Reminds me of the first time my group ran into them evil bastiges. So very, very painful. Pinpricks from nowhere, falling asleep, waking up nekkid, in the dark, and wondering "What the Frack just happened?"
Now, my rogue carries a hand crossbow with the best sleep or paralytic I can afford. (which just reminds me of the 1e/2e poison tables...ahhh for some type XX poison ;) )
btw, you can run around with a drawn hand crossbow without to much problems. No need for quick draw at all. furtheremore, comparing quick draw (a decent all round feat) with exotic weapon proficiency: shuriken (a very situational feat that grants you a very situational weapon) isn't a fair. Quick draw is a lot better than exotic weapon proficiency: shuriken.
If you are running around with a drawn weapon, anyway, you could just use a bow. Which, incidentally, can also be quick drawn and let you full attack without requiring a small army of them scattered around your body.
And yes, I realize that quick draw can be used for different things, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about hand crossbows vs. other weapons.
And why are shuriken suddenly more situational than hand crossbows? Shuriken let you full-attack sneak attack every time you win initiative. If that's situational, you need more Dexterity. Even with the -4 from non proficiency, you probably have a fair chance of scoring at least as many hits as you do with a single shot from another weapon. Especially if you're a TWF rogue.
I guess if you carry two loaded ones with you, you could full-attack TWF style on round 1 of combat, then drop them and switch to something else afterwards.
If you carried a lot per loaded in multiple glove(s) of storing you could TWF full attack at higher levels too.
It's horribly inefficient compared to just throwing daggers, but it is sort of funny to envision.
Rule of Cool. In actuality they are pretty useless.
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quickdraw + carry 6 hand crossbows, or take the -4/-4 with twf and use two repeating light crossbows, still sucks that it requires you to fire it with two hands to use the repeating lever...
i guess you'll just have to upgrade to guns. you'll never be Huntress from DC comics. unless you bribe the GM.
Rule of Cool. In actuality they are pretty useless.If you're not a class that develops precision damage, you're right. If you are, than you don't need a bigger crossbow.
By "actuality" I meant "in reality". They have no penetration thus, in a IRL sitrep, they wouldn;t be able hurt many vital organs.
I take it back: it's perfect for pseudo-medeival gun-fu!I guess if you carry two loaded ones with you, you could full-attack TWF style on round 1 of combat, then drop them and switch to something else afterwards.Like the other two loaded hand crossbows you have strapped to your chestThere you go! Like the first scene with Rick O'Connell in The Mummy, only with crossbows instead of guns.
You keep firing your light crossbow until they get too close, then drop it and quickdraw your two hand crossbows. Fire them, drop them, quickdraw the other pair from behind your back. Fire them, drop them, quickdraw another pair...
So you just walk around with multiple loaded crossbows on your person? Do you have any idea what prolonged tension does to a draw string? Also, how do you not shoot yourself every time you take a tumble?