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For the Gms


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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*****

20 people marked this as a favorite.

This is a thread for all the GMs out in PFS land and a public service announcement for all of those out there that denounce any benefit or perceived benefit that GMs get.
I have to say, that I'm not easily offended by anything; seriously.. ask Bob, or Kyle or Doug. I don't offend. However, there have been recent posts like the one below that have come close to really offending me and I think it's time that this is addressed. I'll apologize now if you feel offended at the end of reading this, however, if you're offended because you feel the thread is pointing at you... then perhaps you need to look at what you've written.
Posts like this one:

Quote:
Yeah, I was going to say that only players who actually play their characters during the season should be eligible to earn boons. And GM credit shouldn't count.

And

Quote:
So what's to stop someone from making characters in all 10 factions, GMing 10 times, and applying the credits to all their characters, so they can get all the boons?

These are what have tipped the scales for me. GMs get very little benefit out of providing you with a fun time that to be snippy about anything involving GM credit is baffling to me.

Often times a GM has paid the same badge fee, hotel fee, travel fees and in additional bought the scenario, paid for all the additional items he brings; in addition to spending his time running the game so that you can play. And then complain because the GM might get a benefit that you don't.
The part that annoys me is that the quoted posts automatically assume that the GMs are going to play the system. There are so many worse things out in the world than to assume that someone somewhere that doesn't interact with you is going to get a benefit that you might not thing to take advantage of that again, I'm just baffled.
The bottom line for me is this. Why is there all the GM hate? Why are people so concerned that GMs are somehow going to get ahead in this game? Why can players just be happy that someone is spending their time, money and energy to run a fun and interesting game?
When was the last time you thanked the person running the game? Because generally what I see is that players grab their chronicles and run away. ( There are a few exceptions but still, ).
For those that want to foster GM hatred, walk a mile in our shoes. Here is a typical convention for me... let's see how well you can do it.

Weeks before the convention I'm prepping scenarios, drawing maps and making other preparations (making sure homework is done and real work is caught up if I'm taking vacatio time). I'm making sure I have my badge paid for and that the hotel is arranged. Then there is the travel – aside from my local convention, the closest convention I've been to is 2 hours away.
I show up at least 45 minutes before the first slot starts, make sure I have my table and that all my "stuff" is set up and out. Run the game for 4 hours (players take intermittent potty breaks), sign chronicles and the players leave – cept for those that like to talk afterwards. I have to clean up and reset for the next game – sometimes involving moving tables depending on the con (at Gencon we had different tables each slot and we had to completely pack up and leave the tables before the next slot). The person talking to me doesn't understand that I haven't eaten yet, I have to pee and I need a bit of quiet time. I'm not sitting there with my legs crossed because I'm all ladylike and dainty.
Rinse and repeat for 2 more slots and at least another day and a half.

The player... shows up and plays.

Tell me GMs don't deserve the little that they get.

Grand Lodge ****

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Thank you.

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Ontario aka Feegle

Indeed.

Posts like the ones you quoted fail to acknowledge that mostly, if a player doesn't volunteer their time, you can still have a game, only with one less player.

If a GM doesn't volunteer their time, you've got no game.

If people think that GMs are going to get ahead by doing less work, then why the heck aren't they doing it?

*****

Jeff my point exactly ... Taking the few benefits away from a GM that they currently get is just going to make fewer people want to GM. I think there are GMs (myself) that have other reasons for GMing other than just the benefits (I'm kind of a control freak on somethings lol) but the benefits to make up for the time spent.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
So what's to stop someone from making characters in all 10 factions, GMing 10 times, and applying the credits to all their characters, so they can get all the boons?

This confuses me. Is there anything that stops this same question from being asked about a player making ten characters and playing ten games?

Qadira ****

I just figure it's a vocal few.

and there's always a few jerks in every large group of people...

Ignore the jerks and game on!

*****

Ross Byers wrote:


Quote:
So what's to stop someone from making characters in all 10 factions, GMing 10 times, and applying the credits to all their characters, so they can get all the boons?
This confuses me. Is there anything that stops this same question from being asked about a player making ten characters and playing ten games?

Exactly... but yet ... said about GMs

*****

nosig wrote:

I just figure it's a vocal few.

and there's always a few jerks in every large group of people...

Ignore the jerks and game on!

But yet, when players don't like a GM we're supposed to take notice of what players don't like and adjust our style accordingly. Why the double standard? Why are GMs supposed to turn the other cheek?

Silver Crusade **

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Wholeheartedly agreed! I enjoy GM'ing, and I've had good tables and bad tables. You have no *idea* how nice it is to hear a player say a simple "Hey, thanks for running that table. I really had fun, thanks for putting in the effort."

Pretty much, what all the GM's above me has said, I'll +1.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Hear!Hear! Well said.

Grand Lodge ****

My Pappeh always told me players who say bad things about GMs quickly end up with dead characters.

This game doesn't exist without GMs. Remember that next time you grab your next chronicle sheet.

Silver Crusade ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm going to bet 90% of the players that need to hear this, never will. :(

Shadow Lodge ***

Ross Byers wrote:


Quote:
So what's to stop someone from making characters in all 10 factions, GMing 10 times, and applying the credits to all their characters, so they can get all the boons?
This confuses me. Is there anything that stops this same question from being asked about a player making ten characters and playing ten games?

Just as soon as I write an app for for a chatroom bot to automatically run through first steps part 1 through 3, my army of clones shall be invincible.. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Andoran

I've GMed a few games; and a LOT of work goes into preparing to make the game fun for the players. I sincerely appreciate the work done by GM's and don't begrudge them any benefits.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

3 people marked this as a favorite.

@Thea: You go girl!
virtual high five

Honestly, I think most of the "GM hate," as it has been dubbed, stems from a lack of understanding that the GM is the judge - the impartial arbiter - of something written by an ex-parte. That's not to say I'm blaming the scenario writers (talk about walking a mile in someone's shoes before talking down about something, those guys work hard!), I'm just saying that players, and maybe even some fellow GMs ;), need to realize that we're all in this together.

My job is to bring the scenario to life, and to let you know how the enemies, NPCs, and environment reacts and to present everything in a manner most conducive to unbridled entertainment. I see the player's job as one of making my evening richer, adding to my rendition of a scenario by their actions and personality. Both parties don't have it easy, but at least the players have each other to work with -- GMs have to go it alone for the most part.

Respect, ladies and gentlemen, that is the word of the day.

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
I have to say, that I'm not easily offended by anything; seriously.. ask Bob, or Kyle or Doug. I don't offend.

Lies!! Lies I say! I offend you all the time! ;)

*****

Dragnmoon wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
I have to say, that I'm not easily offended by anything; seriously.. ask Bob, or Kyle or Doug. I don't offend.
Lies!! Lies I say! I offend you all the time! ;)

Plugging my nose when I'm around you isn't being offended... it's an attempt to not pass out from the fumes

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

We should be punished though for killing PCs... We deserve it..

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Plugging my nose when I'm around you isn't being offended... it's an attempt to not pass out from the fumes

Hey, I may be a lot of things, but stinky I am not!

*****

Dragnmoon wrote:
We should be punished though for killing PCs... We deserve it..

hrmm .... c'mere I'll punish you

starts slipping into domme bunny costume and pulling out whips

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
We should be punished though for killing PCs... We deserve it..

hrmm .... c'mere I'll punish you

starts slipping into domme bunny costume and pulling out whips

Bob...Bob......help...

*****

Dragnmoon wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
We should be punished though for killing PCs... We deserve it..

hrmm .... c'mere I'll punish you

starts slipping into domme bunny costume and pulling out whips

Bob...Bob......help...

pfft ... he's in time-out corner

Andoran ***** Venture-Captain, Minnesota—St. Paul

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thanks for that Thea!

Additionally, if someone is spending so much time GM'ing, that they create 10 characters to assign different factions to, then they probably don't have time to actually play.

So who cares if they have some special boon that you don't if they don't actually get to use it?

**

Poor Bob.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Nebten wrote:
Poor Bob.

Why are you in the basement with Bob?

Cheliax ***** Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Andrew Christian wrote:

Thanks for that Thea!

Additionally, if someone is spending so much time GM'ing, that they create 10 characters to assign different factions to, then they probably don't have time to actually play.

So who cares if they have some special boon that you don't if they don't actually get to use it?

Uh, I have 8 of 10, at this point, with one PC retired and one close to it, and a character at every tier. Oh, and I've GMed 64 tables, now.

I look forward to using all my special boons, thank you. (-:

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, South Dakota—Rapid City aka Black Powder Chocobo

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dragnmoon wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
We should be punished though for killing PCs... We deserve it..

hrmm .... c'mere I'll punish you

starts slipping into domme bunny costume and pulling out whips

Bob...Bob......help...

That's a lousy safe word.

Silver Crusade **

Black Powder Chocobo wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
We should be punished though for killing PCs... We deserve it..

hrmm .... c'mere I'll punish you

starts slipping into domme bunny costume and pulling out whips

Bob...Bob......help...

That's a lousy safe word.

Right. You owe me a new monitor....especially because your avatar just sells that line. I have got to stop drinking tea when I hit these boards...

Paizo Employee ** Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This thread turned ... weird (er than usual).

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Dragnmoon wrote:
Bob...Bob......help...

If it was anyone else, I might consider it ;-)

Now take your punishment like a man

*goes back to his corner*

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just confirming, because I thought this was the case, but GMs do not currently get any boons from scenarios they run, right?

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Mergy wrote:
Just confirming, because I thought this was the case, but GMs do not currently get any boons from scenarios they run, right?

GMs only get boons from chronicle sheets where there's nothing else (like gold, prestige, XP) on the sheet, e.g. holiday boons, Ambush in Absalom.

*****

Mergy wrote:
Just confirming, because I thought this was the case, but GMs do not currently get any boons from scenarios they run, right?

we get the boons on chronicles on the rare chances we get to play, if the chronicle is from a GM credit then we don't get it.

*****

Mark Moreland wrote:
This thread turned ... weird (er than usual).

I blame Dragnmoon... it's all his fault ... I was innocent until he came into the thread

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@PFCBG: Well said.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm happy to say I haven't encountered any players who have called GMing easy or have inferred that I'm only GMing for safe credits. I'm unhappy to find out that people like that exist.

*****

Mergy wrote:
I'm happy to say I haven't encountered any players who have called GMing easy or have inferred that I'm only GMing for safe credits. I'm unhappy to find out that people like that exist.

The sad fact is some of those people exist on these boards.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
The bottom line for me is this. Why is there all the GM hate? Why are people so concerned that GMs are somehow going to get ahead in this game? Why can players just be happy that someone is spending their time, money and energy to run a fun and interesting game?

You're not going to like the answer. Having worked at various service positions in my years, I have come to conclude that there is a part within some people that simply operates on the principle that people who give them service are there to be abused whichever way they see fit. Frequently these are people frustrated with elements in life they can't control and they'll take it out on someone who's giving them service as a way of asserting that control, or validating themselves as someone of worth. To justify their actions they'll have placed in their minds any of a number of faults said service people are said to have.

In other words it's not a facet of gaming, it's part of the ugly side of sociology. I'd go a bit further in saying it's a particular part of American psychology which holds those in a perceived servant position in contempt.

Qadira ****

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Just confirming, because I thought this was the case, but GMs do not currently get any boons from scenarios they run, right?
we get the boons on chronicles on the rare chances we get to play, if the chronicle is from a GM credit then we don't get it.

I Judge sometimes... I play sometimes. Most persons that Judge also play (or did at one time) - in fact I will risk an opinion here and say that everyone at the table is a player. Why put us in two camps? It's not Players vs. Judges (at least, it shouldn't be). That's what makes RPGs different from most games... we should all be on the same side - the side for having fun.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

LazarX wrote:

You're not going to like the answer. Having worked at various service positions in my years, I have come to conclude that there is a part within some people that simply operates on the principle that people who give them service are there to be abused whichever way they see fit. Frequently these are people frustrated with elements in life they can't control and they'll take it out on someone who's giving them service as a way of asserting that control, or validating themselves as someone of worth. To justify their actions they'll have placed in their minds any of a number of faults said service people are said to have.

In other words it's not a facet of gaming, it's part of the ugly side of sociology. I'd go a bit further in saying it's a particular part of American psychology which holds those in a perceived servant position in contempt.

This idea crossed my mind as well. On the other hand, the notion is predicated on the assumption that such players see GMs in a "service" role to begin with, and I'm not sure how widespread that view is. What you describe is no doubt part of the problem, but I suspect it only explains a portion of the population being discussed. I imagine there's a second major contingent with different reasons for exhibiting the behavior PFCBG is talking about.

Grand Lodge ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:


This idea crossed my mind as well. On the other hand, the notion is predicated on the assumption that such players see GMs in a "service" role to begin with, and I'm not sure how widespread that view is.

I've seen a lot of "Player Entitlement" themes in posts I've read here. At least in the sense that players seem to feel entitled to tell the GM that this is the way he should be running his game and that he should feel honored by their mere presence. A lot of posters tend to undervalue the GM's contribution to a campaign, going to the extent that the GM shouldn't be considered of any more importance than one of the players.

Qadira ****

LazarX wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
The bottom line for me is this. Why is there all the GM hate? Why are people so concerned that GMs are somehow going to get ahead in this game? Why can players just be happy that someone is spending their time, money and energy to run a fun and interesting game?

You're not going to like the answer. Having worked at various service positions in my years, I have come to conclude that there is a part within some people that simply operates on the principle that people who give them service are there to be abused whichever way they see fit. Frequently these are people frustrated with elements in life they can't control and they'll take it out on someone who's giving them service as a way of asserting that control, or validating themselves as someone of worth. To justify their actions they'll have placed in their minds any of a number of faults said service people are said to have.

In other words it's not a facet of gaming, it's part of the ugly side of sociology. I'd go a bit further in saying it's a particular part of American psychology which holds those in a perceived servant position in contempt.

I was with you (mostly) until you got to the American psychology part. I don't think it is particularly American - in fact, Americans on average tend to treat persons in service positions better than many other cultures.

*****

I understand want you guys are saying, however, I don't see GMs as being in service positions. We volunteer their time, energy and finances towards this. We get small rewards and a lot of grief on the boards for what we do.

But as for the "American Psychology" portion -- I think that this small aspect of our community is representative of society as a whole, where we have become a super meme society and feel we are entitled to everything and anything we want; regardless of who we have to step on to get it. Gone, I think, are the days were people can have general respect for one another...

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Ontario aka Feegle

I can't for the life of me find a link to it anymore, but about a month ago I stumbled across an old post on a blog about geek social fallacies. The first one (GSF1) was the fact that ostracism for any reason is wrong.

[edit: Found it! ]

Our community here in Toronto is pretty awesome as far as the players go; we've got a lot of different players with a lot of different attitudes toward play, but I don't think I've ever been at a table with people who demonstrated any sense of entitlement. If they went a step further and started demanding that I run a game they wanted, I'd be perfectly happy to suggest that they remove themselves from my table. (Further, I suspect that the suggestion would be stronger worded than a "suggestion" typically is.)

In these situations, I suspect that a lot of GMs fall victim to GSF1. Excluding someone who's making your life difficult - in a volunteer position! - is not wrong, and until it happens more frequently to them, they're not going to get the message.

And once again, I'll reiterate a key message I've been spreading over and over again (typically to those who tell me that teachers have it easy, but applicable here as well) - if GMing is too rewarding and needs to be balanced, then you do it.

*****

Jeff, very good points... and some I think GMs can take as well.

I think GMs by nature try to hold up the inclusivness aspect of the game, that's part of why we GM so that more people can play.

Qadira ****

Rewards for Judgeing games have come a ways sense the days of "eating a mod" when you ran it. Not to say it wasn't needed - or that I would be opposed to some other kind of reward for judges (I judge sometimes too), but I think we are jumping at shadows here.

what we should be asking ourselves is:
as a player-
Do we tell a judge thank you for running? (Esp. if there was "problems" with the event... he most needs it then). Take a moment and tell the judge you had fun, and do it where the other players can hear - it'll help teach them to also do it.
as a judge -
Do we listen for praise when we judge? (If we are listening only to the bad things - which is what we often find on these boards - we'll miss the enjoyment most of the players have had when they leave our tables.). Did you ask if they enjoyed the game?

Cheliax ***** Owner - Enchanted Grounds

1 person marked this as a favorite.
nosig wrote:
I Judge sometimes... I play sometimes. Most persons that Judge also play (or did at one time) - in fact I will risk an opinion here and say that everyone at the table is a player. Why put us in two camps? It's not Players vs. Judges (at least, it shouldn't be). That's what makes RPGs different from most games... we should all be on the same side - the side for having fun.

I GM a lot. I also play a lot.

I try to make it a point to play anything before I GM it, so I can see it from a player's standpoint before reading it as a GM. I consider this part of my prep. I also consider it to be a lot of fun, and enjoy both sides of the screen a great deal.

Too much, perhaps, considering the fact that, as much as I play and GM, I often am involved in 5 games a week. Work suffers a little because of that...

Regarding the "service" discussion that is just starting up: Yep. We, as GMs, are in the service industry. You are rendering a service for which people are often paying (be it with time or money or both), and they see our performance as directly responsible for their fun. Thus, we're much like a waiter at a restaurant. This is the psychology of it, and is not something to be upset about. Instead, accept it, use it, and get better at what you do because of it.

Edited to remove quoting errors...

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

LazarX wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


This idea crossed my mind as well. On the other hand, the notion is predicated on the assumption that such players see GMs in a "service" role to begin with, and I'm not sure how widespread that view is.

I've seen a lot of "Player Entitlement" themes in posts I've read here. At least in the sense that players seem to feel entitled to tell the GM that this is the way he should be running his game and that he should feel honored by their mere presence. A lot of posters tend to undervalue the GM's contribution to a campaign, going to the extent that the GM shouldn't be considered of any more importance than one of the players.

Ah, see, I'd have categorized "player entitlement" and "contempt for persons in service positions" as two separate causes for similar-looking poor behavior toward GMs. Perhaps I'm just being more specific than you were. ;)


I always try and thank my GM(s) for running the game.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Drogon wrote:


Regarding the "service" discussion that is just starting up: Yep. We, as GMs, are in the service industry. You are rendering a service for which people are often paying (be it with time or money or both), and they see our performance as directly responsible for their fun. Thus, we're much like a waiter at a restaurant. This is the psychology of it, and is not something to be upset about. Instead, accept it, use it, and get better at what you do because of it.

In a lot of cases GMs are also paying the same monies and expenses with additional ... We volunteer our time; while that may mean that we are "servicing" the players, that does not mean that we deserve to be treated with disrespect or like servents to their fun.

I don't consider myself a waitress at a resturant. I consider myself a gamer and as such able to circulate in gamer circles. Waiters don't circulate in the same circles as their patrons (generally)

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