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I'm reading through page 16 of the PFS Organized Play guide and have a question about GM rewards for the Free RPG Day modules like Master of the Fallen Fortress and We Be Goblins (and, presumably Dawn of the Scarlet Sun.)
Can a GM apply a Chronicle sheet from these modules to a 2nd level character or can they only be applied to 1st level characters?
Since a player can get a chronicle once for playing a 2nd level character through the the ones that allow that, I would think a GM could get a single chronicle for a 2nd level character also.
But yeah, like Dan said, MotFF is only for brand-new 1st level characters, so a chronicle from that would have to be the first chronicle earned by the character.
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The line in the guide that I kept getting hung up on was:
The sanctioned modules can also be played with a 2nd level character once for credit.
But I just downloaded the Chronicle sheets & WBG does indeed specify 1st & 2nd level characters in the GM instructions. MFF is less clear, but when you compare the level listed on its chronicle sheet to that of Godsmouth Heresy it is clear that MFF is meant strictly for 1st level characters.
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IMO, GM credits for modules should apply to the intended level only. In the case of MotFF, that would be brand new only. For WBG, it would be only 1st level. But this is just my opinion and not necessarily the intended rule. Since the line you quoted specifically states played, I would say that does not apply to the GM credits. YMMV.
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Well in the case of Dawn of The Scarlet Sun, the adventure is built for 5th level characters this year. So I am assuming that standard PF Module rules wil apply in this case.
Which is: Character must be 5th level in order to recieve credit. If you play a pre-gen, you still get a sheet, but it doesn't get kicked in until the PFS legal character is 5th level.
So I would go off what level the module was built for and apply accordingly. Everyone always has a 1st level character that could use some XP :)
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IMO, GM credits for modules should apply to the intended level only. In the case of MotFF, that would be brand new only. For WBG, it would be only 1st level. But this is just my opinion and not necessarily the intended rule. Since the line you quoted specifically states played, I would say that does not apply to the GM credits. YMMV.
We Be Goblins spells it out pretty specifically:
All players who play the entire module receive the attached
Chronicle sheet which may be applied to any 1st- or 2ndlevel
PC as if that character had played the module. A GM
who runs a module may likewise apply credit to any one of
her Pathfinder Society PCs of 1st or 2nd level. The decision
of which character to apply credit to must be made when
the Chronicle sheet is received and signed by the GM.
I'm trying to simultaneously recruit new players and to get more people to offer to run games. Looks like running a session of We Be Goblins directly after taking a group through First Steps should do the trick nicely.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Looks like running a session of We Be Goblins directly after taking a group through First Steps should do the trick nicely.
That's what our group did with our second batch of characters after first steps came out. And then we went on to do Frostfur Captives... :)
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Wait - what's this about Master of the Fallen Fortress having to be the first adventure ever for a character?
I knew it was 1st level only, but I played it as the 3rd adventure with my first PFS character, before I knew what was going on. And I'm actually scheduled to play MFF again at an upcoming convention with a different character, though I may change to do something else that slot. But both of my level 1 characters that I really want to play at that convention already have 2 xp each.
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Wait - what's this about Master of the Fallen Fortress having to be the first adventure ever for a character?
I knew it was 1st level only, but I played it as the 2nd or 3rd adventure with my first PFS character, before I knew what was going on. I don't have the chronicles in front of me, but I remember playing First Steps, part 3 as my first adventure.
And I'm actually scheduled to play MFF again at an upcoming convention with a different character, though I may change to do something else that slot. But both of my level 1 characters that I really want to play at that convention already have 2 xp each.
It was designed to be played as an PFS intro mod for Freed RPG Day players as a 1st lvl character (thats why no PA are awarded).
However you can play it with a 1st lvl character who has previously played pfs scenarios.
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Wait - what's this about Master of the Fallen Fortress having to be the first adventure ever for a character?
I knew it was 1st level only, but I played it as the 2nd or 3rd adventure with my first PFS character, before I knew what was going on. I don't have the chronicles in front of me, but I remember playing First Steps, part 3 as my first adventure.
And I'm actually scheduled to play MFF again at an upcoming convention with a different character, though I may change to do something else that slot. But both of my level 1 characters that I really want to play at that convention already have 2 xp each.
It was designed to be played as an PFS intro mod for Freed RPG Day players as a 1st lvl character (thats why no PA are awarded).
However you can play it with a 1st lvl character who has previously played pfs scenarios.
That's not what was implied in some of the earlier posts in this thread.
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There is no rule saying a non-1st ever adventure character can't play MFF, but the way it's written it's before a character ever even joined the Pathfinder Society. So it makes no sense for a character to play it after he has become a pathfinder.
Personal opinion: As much as MFF has served it's purpose in the past, it doesn't seem to fit well with the other PFS adventures especially with the First Steps series in play. I would like it to go the way of the Dodo since it doesn't thematically fit PFS at all anymore IMO. It assumes you're not a pathfinder during it's course. First Steps does the same job it did, but better and more effectively. MFF just seems to confuse new players.
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First Steps is a fantastic introduction to PFS, but MFF has the benefit of being run in a single session. Trouble is you can't play all three first steps scenarios and MFF.
Realizing the benefit of a single session PFS intro...perhaps the Chronicle sheet for MFF could provide a boon in lieu of XP and incorporate a "formal invitation" to train as a Pathfinder?
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Realizing the benefit of a single session PFS intro...perhaps the Chronicle sheet for MFF could provide a boon in lieu of XP and incorporate a "formal invitation" to train as a Pathfinder?
That would be a good work around in my opinion. I've never liked that you didn't get PA for the adventure, but it gave you XP. Also, it runs awfully quick, especially so if your group is 3.X trained.
Wait - what's this about Master of the Fallen Fortress having to be the first adventure ever for a character?
I knew it was 1st level only, but I played it as the 3rd adventure with my first PFS character, before I knew what was going on. And I'm actually scheduled to play MFF again at an upcoming convention with a different character, though I may change to do something else that slot. But both of my level 1 characters that I really want to play at that convention already have 2 xp each.
I would have to go and find Joshua Frost's original posts about it, but because it is designed to be played before you have chosen a faction, or even joined the Society, he posted that it could only be played by a fresh, zero xp character. I do not think this was ever overridden by his successor, Hyrum Savage, or the current team of Mark and Mike.
Edit: And here is Joshua's post.
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Wait - what's this about Master of the Fallen Fortress having to be the first adventure ever for a character?
I knew it was 1st level only, but I played it as the 3rd adventure with my first PFS character, before I knew what was going on. And I'm actually scheduled to play MFF again at an upcoming convention with a different character, though I may change to do something else that slot. But both of my level 1 characters that I really want to play at that convention already have 2 xp each.
I would have to go and find Joshua Frost's original posts about it, but because it is designed to be played before you have chosen a faction, or even joined the Society, he posted that it could only be played by a fresh, zero xp character. I do not think this was ever overridden by his successor, Hyrum Savage, or the current team of Mark and Mike.
Edit: And here is Joshua's post.
AFAIK, forum posts do not necessarily constitute binding rules. The FAQ does, the Additional Resources page, and most specifically the GtPSOP as well.
I, for one, would like to support Deane Beman's recommendation that the Chronicle be updated to reflect 0 XP gain with a boon in its place. In tandem, I would also like to suggest that the FAQ reflect that MotFF require only 0 XP Level 1 PFS characters, prior to taking faction traits. This would make the module perfect for conventions and as a prelude to First Steps.
Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco
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I'm reading through page 16 of the PFS Organized Play guide and have a question about GM rewards for the Free RPG Day modules like Master of the Fallen Fortress and We Be Goblins (and, presumably Dawn of the Scarlet Sun.)
Can a GM apply a Chronicle sheet from these modules to a 2nd level character or can they only be applied to 1st level characters?
Back to the original question, Dawn of the Scarlet Sun might work differently because, unlike the other Free RPG Day modules, DotSS is for 5th level characters. Pre-gens of that level are included, but I haven't seen a PFS Chronicle sheet for it yet so I'm not sure if you can play it with your own 4th-6th level character for credit, or if you have to play a pre-gen and apply the credit to a new character using those rules (500 gp, 1 XP, etc).
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Modifying Master of the Fallen Fortress has been kicked around before, and apparently is not going to happen. Since it is a print product, and the Chronicle was included in the scenario, there is no way to consistently update it. Chronicles are no longer printed in modules, and so the others (like Goblins and the new one) are easier to adapt for regular PFS.
I like MFF as an intro, but because it gives 1 xp and no PP, it is not very well-received by some players. It should probably be retired, or a sequel written with Chronicle under the new module rules.
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I see no reason to retire MotFF. Even if it's not the "preferred" into material, that doesn't invalidate its content. We already have all the material completed for it. If it remains legal and few play it, good for them. If we remove it from legal play, how does that help the few that want to play it and what benefit do the rest of us gain? Just leave it alone and focus on new material.
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The only thing I would do is Update the chronicle sheet to clarify if it can only be played by New level 1s.
Updating the chronicle is a technical issue that Mike has stated is not feasible. Since it's not on the schedule, we would have to wait a very long time. It could be temporarily handled with an FAQ entry followed by a note in the Guide. Maybe the chronicle could be updated next fall after the GenCon push has subsided.
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The only thing I would do is Update the chronicle sheet to clarify if it can only be played by New level 1s.Updating the chronicle is a technical issue that Mike has stated is not feasible. Since it's not on the schedule, we would have to wait a very long time. It could be temporarily handled with an FAQ entry followed by a note in the Guide. Maybe the chronicle could be updated next fall after the GenCon push has subsided.
Umm what?
The Chronicle is already there in Additional Resources; just change it with a new one.
It is not a technical issue; it is more of an editing issue and time to do the editing.
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With the other modules, the "Additional resources" Chornicle is the only one there is. Because MotFF was given out for Free RPG day, there are thousands of print copies out there which would have "incorrect" info in them if we just changed the online version. That is a discrepancy they'd rather not have.
And Bob: don't mistake me, I love the module - but because it puts people at a disadvantage when starting a new character, I think that those few who play it may wish they had played something else instead down the road. I have had several players comment about this well after the fact. Now, if you're playing it with pre-gens with brand new folks, it likely won't matter to them, since they'll be making new characters anyway and/or won't care what prestige is.
I have a 3D version of the entire tower sitting unused because of the prestige issue... I'll probably pull it out for demo games at cons, though.
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Stuff
You guys are confusing the hell out of me..
The Chronicle Sheet itself does not have to change at all, All that has to be done is change the Rules part in the additional resources download to have the correct rules for this.
That does not change the chronicle sheet at all.
You guys are putting a lot more difficulty into this then there actually is.
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StuffYou guys are confusing the hell out of me..
The Chronicle Sheet itself does not have to change at all, All that has to be done is change the Rules part in the additional resources download to have the correct rules for this.
That does not change the chronicle sheet at all.
You guys are putting a lot more difficulty into this then there actually is.
*Tongue in Cheek*
Obviously, you don't get it because you lack the mental "enhancements" we VCs get upon promotion.
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I have a 3D version of the entire tower sitting unused because of the prestige issue
This is disappointing. The module itself is a lot of fun and should be run whenever possible. I get that it would be nice to get some Fame from playing it, but let's be honest, it's only one point. If Mike decides to change the parameters and grant a point, great, but if not, that should not dissuade GM's from running it nor players from enjoying it.
Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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I too got busy with the Hirst Arts molds and a great big bag of herculite 2 to add a little extra dimension to MoTFF at our local con. Played it all weekend recruiting new players. Nearly a year on it sits in a local gaming store unused and unloved.
I have also built the dungeon from First Steps part 2 and it still gets use when introducing new players.
For this years Con I am currently planning to join the legions of people who have built the Blakros museum. Two very cool scenarios, one 3D model....
It seems to me that if MoTFF is going to be hamstrung because the PAless Chronicle is out there in hard copy, surely writing a new module using the same map would work.
Additionally the chronicle for that new module could have an extra boon for a character that already has the original chronicle. Make that boon a desirable one and suddenly MoTFF becomes highly playable even with no PA.
W
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If he does change the mod - it should not be retroactive. Kinda like the Midnight Mauler changes no one who played 2-ex should be able to make changes on their sheet...
I ran this mod several times, in fact I recruited over 10 new players to PFS with it. They are now part of our regular gaming group and that was like two years ago.
Sad that we have to let the prop/diorama go to waste maybe someone else can write a scenario and call it Return to the Fallen Fortress. I know what happens at the end but hey hollywood gets away with it all the time.
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I have a 3D version of the entire tower sitting unused because of the prestige issueThis is disappointing. The module itself is a lot of fun and should be run whenever possible. I get that it would be nice to get some Fame from playing it, but let's be honest, it's only one point. If Mike decides to change the parameters and grant a point, great, but if not, that should not dissuade GM's from running it nor players from enjoying it.
I don't think there would be such discontent about it, except that We be Goblins! (which has absolutely no tie to the Pathfinders, and isn't run with actual PFS characters) grants Fame, but the intro module where you earn the right to train as Pathfinders grants no Fame. Similar mods with dissimilar reward means either MotFF or WBG! should be changed to the "right" format, whatever that is.
Also, because I insist on beating this dead horse, will someone please show me where, in the rules, it says you do not get Fame for MotFF.
Edit: Oh,yeah. And This:
The Guide overrules any message board post where it applies, especially message posts that are years old.
Just saying.
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In all fairness, it does not say that no PA should be awarded in the MotFF module. I think this has been assumed because the module does not include any faction missions. The Guide does not call out the module specifically. I think we are all operating on old information.
It would be easy to rule that this module awards X Fame/PA for completion.
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In all fairness, it does not say that no PA should be awarded in the MotFF module. I think this has been assumed because the module does not include any faction missions. The Guide does not call out the module specifically. I think we are all operating on old information.
It would be easy to rule that this module awards X Fame/PA for completion.
With regard to MotFF, PA/Fame is not listed anywhere in the module, nowhere in the Chronicle sheet download for the module, nowhere in the Guide (by name), and nowhere in the FAQ. Is it, then, reasonable to assume that the module supplies 4 PA (for normal advancement), per the Guide?
Playing a module from beginning to end earns a character 3 XP and 4 Prestige Points if that character is on the normal advancement track, or 1.5 XP and 2 Prestige Points for characters on the slow advancement track.
But given the contents of the Guide, is it also right for us to presume to increase the experience gain to 3?
Perhaps a FAQ answer to these two questions should be created. This module is the only one that outright provides 1 XP, already written into the space for experience. None of the other module Chronicle sheets have it already filled. This module is an exception.
My thinking is that it would be appropriate to award an automatic 2 PA, based on the same scaling as the other modules (3 XP + 4 PA, 2 XP + 3 PA, 1 XP + 2 PA, 1 XP + 1 PA). This roughly equates to the XP award and PA for playing one session of a three-session Module.
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I agree about changing it to 0xp, but we know that's not going to happen, because it's already in print with a chronicle showing 1xp. It would be extremely easy to add an entry to the FAQ, and then the next Guide update, awarding 1PA for completion.
The main argument for this it that in the past, as a module, the players didn't actually risk permanent death or item loss for playing MotFF. As this was recently changed, the scenario now poses a higher risk to the characters. Higher Risk should equal higher reward. To be fair, the award should be at least as high as We be Goblins!, which awards slightly more gold, more PA, poses absolutely no risk to the characters, and can be awarded to a second level PC.
The second argument is that the Guide says everything you need to know can be found in a download on the Additional Resources page. This is, in the case of this module, clearly false. If the download for MotFF has ever had more than just (illegal for PFS) pregens and a chronicle sheet, I have never seen it. As the rules are currently written, the module awards 4PA and can be awarded to a character within one level of Level 1, but no one actually believes any of that. The only way people know what the real rewards are is by word of mouth. So much for the 'organized' play aspect.
Maybe the issue could be fixed with an optional boon chronicle, 0xp but a one time favor from Balenir(sp?). I know it's not on the "schedule", but as far as projects go I would imagine it easier than updating the pregens.
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Dragnmoon is correct; the Chronicle Sheet is availble on the Additional Resources page. More to the point, the "Prestige" slot is blank; changing the rules so that the GM could award PCs 1 Fame for the adventure wouldn't even require sending it to layout.
This happened to me the 1st time I played MotFF.
It was a 1st time GM running the MotFF on Free RPG Day and he awarded us 1 PA in addition to the 1XP and it was reported in the PFS Database that way.
With regard to MotFF, PA/Fame is not listed anywhere in the module, nowhere in the Chronicle sheet download for the module, nowhere in the Guide (by name), and nowhere in the FAQ. Is it, then, reasonable to assume that the module supplies 4 PA (for normal advancement), per the Guide?
Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (v4.1, Jan 2012), page 23, "Applying Credit" wrote:
Playing a module from beginning to end earns a character 3 XP and 4 Prestige Points if that character is on the normal advancement track, or 1.5 XP and 2 Prestige Points for characters on the slow advancement track.
But given the contents of the Guide, is it also right for us to presume to increase the experience gain to 3?
Matt,
this doesnt apply to Free RPG Day Modules: they are mods written to fit into a 4hr slot also they are not full-length mods, they are mods meant to introduce players to the game.
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Matt,
this doesnt apply to Free RPG Day Modules: they are mods written to fit into a 4hr slot also they are not full-length mods, they are mods meant to introduce players to the game.
Perfect. We just need to see the FAQ, the part in the guide, or the cite from the Additional Resources page that says that, and we can be on our way. ;)
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Master of the Fallen Fortress still rewards 1 XP and 0 PP. It isn't going to change. If we did change it, we run into the problem of everyone who has played it wanting to go back and retcon their character to receive PP.
Would it be better if I retired this module from PFS play? The reason I ask is there is a lot of confusion. As mentioned by Shivok above, the free RPG day modules, which MotFF was, was written for a four hour block of time, not 8-12 as the other modules (We Be Goblins excluded).
There is two choices here that I want to get feedback from the fanbase from regarding MotFF.
1) Continue to leave it as a legal option to play, receiving only 1 XP and 0 PPs.
2) Retire it from PFS play as it continues to create confusion and/or strife because of the 0 PP issue.
Let me hear your thoughts. I also don't want to argue or debate about adding a PP or more XPs or the like. There are numerous problems that I don't want to create that aren't currently there. So, please choose one of the two options above.
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To be fair, the award should be at least as high as We be Goblins!, which awards slightly more gold, more PA, poses absolutely no risk to the characters, and can be awarded to a second level PC.
It can only be awarded to a 2nd level PC once. After that, any other times you play, it must be awarded to a 1st level PC.
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Venture-Captain, Alabama—Birmingham
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Master of the Fallen Fortress still rewards 1 XP and 0 PP. It isn't going to change. If we did change it, we run into the problem of everyone who has played it wanting to go back and retcon their character to receive PP.
Would it be better if I retired this module from PFS play? The reason I ask is there is a lot of confusion. As mentioned by Shivok above, the free RPG day modules, which MotFF was, was written for a four hour block of time, not 8-12 as the other modules (We Be Goblins excluded).
There is two choices here that I want to get feedback from the fanbase from regarding MotFF.
1) Continue to leave it as a legal option to play, receiving only 1 XP and 0 PPs.
2) Retire it from PFS play as it continues to create confusion and/or strife because of the 0 PP issue.
Let me hear your thoughts. I also don't want to argue or debate about adding a PP or more XPs or the like. There are numerous problems that I don't want to create that aren't currently there. So, please choose one of the two options above.
Between those two extremes I guess we'll have to live with Option 1.
I respectfully disagree that these should be the only options.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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I just offered it at a con. Its a great option for those who did play all three intros, and want to stay in the "kiddie pool" one more time.
I think the 0 PP is an issue, but upfront we are clear that it awards no PP.
You have to hold it until the next adventure slot...
:-)