He wants to use all the good stuff in one flurry of blows, can he?


Rules Questions


Hi guys the monk in my group made a really interresting build. He wants to play a monk of the four winds with Power Attack/ Elemental Fist/ Hammer the Gap /Stunning Fist/ Medusas Wrath /Dragon Style / Dragon Ferocity /Touch of Serenity and the Punishing Kick Feat.

And that is what he wants to do and our questions to it:

He activates Dragon Style and Charges to the enemy to get + 1 1/2 Strength bonus on his next attack.
(First question: Can he make now a full attack with flurry of blows or isnt that possible?)

In the next round he wants to use the Dragon Ferocity Feat + Power Attack + Hammer the Gap to get + 1/2 his strenght on his damage roles plus the bonus from Power attack and the bonusses from Hammer the gap.
(Does that mean that if he has 18 Strenght and he hits 4 times he gets +4 normal bonus/ + 2 from dragon ferocity/ +2 from his power attack/ and +1/+2/+3/+4 from hammer the gap. That would be + 9dmg on the first hit +10 on the second +11 on the third and finally +12 on the last one?!)

Now his full combo:
First he uses the Dragon Ferocity Feat + Power Attack + Hammer the Gap like above but on the first attack he wants to use elemental fist for 2d6 extra damage on the second attack stunning fist if the enemy is now staggerd, stunned, dazed whatever, he uses medusas wrath for 2 extra attacks (small question does he get the full extra damage from dragon ferocity /power attack and hammer the gap on this roles?)Now comes a normal attack and finally the Punishing Kick to knock the enemy prone and get an attack of oppertunity if he stands up in the next round.
Or even better he uses touch of serenity for the last attack and the enemy cant attack him in the next round and gets the full combo again in the following round!

And this almost the whole day !!!
Is this all rule conform or did we forgot something because we both think it is a very cool combo.Thanks guys for your help!!!


you can not use a full attack after a charge, its a full round action. you need an ability like pounce to be able to full attack on a charge. although he would get 1.5 str mod on his charge since as long as its his first attack of the round, it seems to only activate on the first unarmed strike of each round so on his one charge attack he'd get it.

dragon ferocity only allows you to get 1.5 times strength mod if he critical hits, and he again would only get the 1.5 str mod on his first attack with dragon style, also even though its 1.5 it still counts as a one handed weapon for power attack thus losing 1 ab for +2 damage. and hammer the gap only gets the added damage if he keeps hitting. also i'm not sure if it would give you +1 damage on the first hit, just consecutives my group ruled (example using 4 attacks no bonus on first it, +1 on second, +2 on third, +3 on fourth)

so assuming he keeps hitting his damage would be +8 damage for first hit, +7 on the second, +8 on third, +9 on fourth. assuming he hits all consecutive


1.He can not make a full attack during a charge unless he can pounce,but he probably can´t.So no to that point.Mind you that Dragon style and dragon ferocity stack ,so he actually gets 2xhis strenght mod on his first attack.

2.Style Feats, Power Attack and Hammer the Gap are passive feats, they don´t require an action and they can all be used on the same attack.So yes.

3.Yes you can use Elemental Fist and Stunning Fist on the Same Flurry of Blows. I don´t know if you can use Punishing Kick and Touch of Serenity as one of your Flurry attacks but if you can you can use them all in the same flurry.


He activates Dragon Style and Charges to the enemy to get + 1 1/2 Strength bonus on his next attack.
(First question: Can he make now a full attack with flurry of blows or isnt that possible?)

Unless he somehow got pounce, he can't get a full attack.

In the next round he wants to use the Dragon Ferocity Feat + Power Attack + Hammer the Gap to get + 1/2 his strength on his damage roles plus the bonus from Power attack and the bonuses from Hammer the gap.
(Does that mean that if he has 18 Strength and he hits 4 times he gets +4 normal bonus/ + 2 from dragon ferocity/ +2 from his power attack/ and +1/+2/+3/+4 from hammer the gap. That would be + 9dmg on the first hit +10 on the second +11 on the third and finally +12 on the last one?!)

+4 normal/+2 DF/+XX PA(varies by BAB)/+0,+1,+2,+3 HtG

Now his full combo:
First he uses the Dragon Ferocity Feat + Power Attack + Hammer the Gap like above but on the first attack he wants to use elemental fist for 2d6 extra damage on the second attack stunning fist if the enemy is now staggered, stunned, dazed whatever, he uses medusas wrath for 2 extra attacks (small question does he get the full extra damage from dragon ferocity /power attack and hammer the gap on this roles?)Now comes a normal attack and finally the Punishing Kick to knock the enemy prone and get an attack of opportunity if he stands up in the next round.
Or even better he uses touch of serenity for the last attack and the enemy cant attack him in the next round and gets the full combo again in the following round!

Reading it over, it looks like this would be legal...

And this almost the whole day !!!
Is this all rule conform or did we forgot something because we both think it is a very cool combo.Thanks guys for your help!!!


- He charged. Unless he has pounce or similar, he cannot full attack at the end of a charge, only one attack.

- Hammer the Gap sucks. The damage is tiny, and relies on consecutive HITS not attacks. He'd need to actually hit with everything to add up the HtG bonuses.

- He can use all of the serenity / stunning / pnishing kick stuff once per round and a number of times per day equal to monk level. Those are the only limits placed on them. So he can full attack and use multiple different ones if he wanted, as long as he only used each one once. He could even combine some of them on the same attack if he wanted (it'd be a waste in many cases, like touch of serenity - which causes you to not do damage - with elemental fist, but it's an option).

- "small question does he get the full extra damage from dragon ferocity /power attack and hammer the gap on this roles?"
Yes. Again, HtG resets as soon as he misses and the bonus has to be built up again, so he's highly unlikely to get it very far.

It's a nice option, it's still nothing compared to what a caster can do and he can't even start taking these "fist feats" (the x/day stuff like stunning fist) till level 11 due to BAB, and then one every odd level thereafter, so by the time he actually HAS all this stuff, he'll be close to 20th level.


Ninja Huddle:)


Yeah, wow. Fittingly, the dude named Vinja beat us all by a smooth 5 minutes.


Vinja89 wrote:

you can not use a full attack after a charge, its a full round action. you need an ability like pounce to be able to full attack on a charge. although he would get 1.5 str mod on his charge since as long as its his first attack of the round, it seems to only activate on the first unarmed strike of each round so on his one charge attack he'd get it.

dragon ferocity only allows you to get 1.5 times strength mod if he critical hits, and he again would only get the 1.5 str mod on his first attack with dragon style, also even though its 1.5 it still counts as a one handed weapon for power attack thus losing 1 ab for +2 damage. and hammer the gap only gets the added damage if he keeps hitting. also i'm not sure if it would give you +1 damage on the first hit, just consecutives my group ruled (example using 4 attacks no bonus on first it, +1 on second, +2 on third, +3 on fourth)

so assuming he keeps hitting his damage would be +8 damage for first hit, +7 on the second, +8 on third, +9 on fourth. assuming he hits all consecutive

@Vinja89: I can't see anywhere in dragon ferocity that says it only activates on a critical hit. It says that if you get a crit with it, the opponent is shaken.

Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.


lol...there were no posts when I started typing mine in...I went and read all the feats just to check on everything...and BAM...

Scarab Sages

Power Attack, Elemental Fist, Hammer the Gap, Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity all provide their benefits when the player chooses. I see no reason they would not all be available at once. Medusas Wrath activates when the conditions are met, so that feat should also be available with the rest.

I would say that Stunning Fist, Touch of Serenity and Punishing Kick would have to be declared seperately, using only one per attack. Others may disagree with me on this, though.

A charge is a full round action and allows only a single melee attack unless the character has another ability that grants more attacks. None of the feats you listed above grant a full attack routine during a charge.

When using Medusas Wrath, any feats or bonuses that are in effect at the time the conditions are met, such as Power Attack and Elemental Fist or even a Bless or Haste spell, apply to the attacks from Medusas Wrath.

I did not check the math you listed, but it seems that the player's routine is sound, other than the full attack during a charge. It is a powerful series of attacks using feats to their best advantage. Of course, targets may still make their saving throws against the special attacks to avoid the effects.

Scarab Sages

malanthropus wrote:
lol...there were no posts when I started typing mine in...I went and read all the feats just to check on everything...and BAM...

Ha, I did the same thing, but was also interrupted by a phone call...

Sovereign Court

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Four Winds has a method of obtaining pounce.

The Exchange

now if he is standing besides someone and has the opportunity to full attack he could accomplish all of these so long as he had enough attacks. since several of those are in place of attacks you cannot stack them onto the same attack he could however

open up with a stunning fist proccing medusas wrath granting him 2 more attacks
follow up with an elemental fist for dmg boost
then a touch of serenity to stop them from casting anything
then execute the rest of your attacks and finish with punishing kick
and yes you can powerattack and hammer the gap through all of this.

i dont see this as overpowered at all. most monsters you face make your fort save vs stunning, the elemental fist is a nice little damage boost. 2 feats to add 50% strength damage to one hit since you will hardly ever crit (<5%) with unarmed strikes, hammer the gap is good for monks but not amazing remember it resets every turn so even if you attack and hit 5 times its only an extra 10(1+2+3+4) and thats assuming every attack hits. but at higher levels could be really nice. punishing kick is nice but again its a fort save when it should honestly be a reflex save for falling prone this means your attack will do normal damage and cause your enemy to 5 foot shift to you next round. punishing kick is nice for kickign people off cliffs or into pits or if you are in difficult terrain but for normal use im not its biggest fan.

but he can do this entire line of attacks equal to his level times per day. a 13th level monk could perform this 13 times a day and so on. hell he could even throw in a few cmbs if he felt so inclined.

just for further reference if any ability ever says "when making a full round attack" it means you can only do this action when making a full round attack and then it explains the way it modifies your full round attack.
if an ability ever states "in place of an attack" that means that you can do it any time you could make an attack unless otherwise stated i.e. you can trip as an AoO.
if an ability ever says "as a standard action" i.e. vital strike, then you can only execute that ability by using a standard action so no doing it as a charge.
hope this helps and congrats to your friend for fitting a ton of stuff into on attack round he should look at maneuver master monk and try throwing dirty tricks and grapples into a full attack action it gets pretty crazy the amoutn of AoO you can make your enemy provoke in one round.


malanthropus wrote:

@Vinja89: I can't see anywhere in dragon ferocity that says it only activates on a critical hit. It says that if you get a crit with it, the opponent is shaken.

woops didnt see the period when i went to reread *embarrased*, so yes he would get 1.5 on each attack

The Exchange

Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Four Winds has a method of obtaining pounce.

once per hour is not really reliable for combat its just a fluff thing. and since you can move at 10x your speed a monk of that level couldnt even see that far out of all the abilities from MO4W id suggst flight

unless your reading is that you always have pounce and you can only move 10x speed 1/hour.


Interesting combo here, been looking for ways to annoy the GM lol. He did it to me when I was running the game =)


Looks legit. Just pay attention to swift actions, like he wouldn't be able to use his ki for an extra attack when he starts a style.

Just one note other Medusa's wrath requires a BAB of +11, so he must be at least 15 level.


Monk's get Medusa's Wrath as a bonus feat selection at 10th level. They can pick it at 10th, 14th, or 18th level without meeting the prerequisites.

Master Arminas


Ah, I missed that.


Yar!

Medusa's Wrath is on the Monk list of bonus feats, which means he can take it at level 10.

Of course, with all the other feats he's taking that are not on the bonus list, he will be in the high teens at the least.

Also, as pointed out, a Four Winds Tiger monk does indeed gain a limited form of pounce, at 17th level.

This is a high level build.

And once per hour is still ONCE PER HOUR! I don't see how that can be considered a "fluff" ability when it is a mechanic that can be used as described by a mechanic.

Even if all theoretical encounters in someones adventuring day all happen in the first 15 minutes with no time between them, he still gets to use that once per hour ability once (most likely at the beginning of that gauntlet of encounters).

Yeah, it's limited...but not something to be outright ignored.

EDIT: partially ninja'ed by master_arminas

~P


You didn't mention the level, but make sure he actually qualified for all of these feats when he took them. Many of them require bab +8, which means monk level 11th. Since he's got several of these, are you actually playing a level 15ish game? Also make sure that he's calculated his attack bonuses correctly. Monk iteratives at -5 really shouldn't be hitting that often for hammer the gap to do much. Make sure he's keeping track of everything else too (uses of abilities per day, ki points per day, swift actions used per round...) to not inadvertently overpower some of these abilities.


Stunning Fist was one of the technique replaced, upon taking up Elemental Fist. How was it possible to regain it?


Anyone can take stunning fist. Its a feat. But all he will be able to do is stun.

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