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Need help with a Bard (Arcane Dualist) / Paladin Build at level 2


Rules Questions

Qadira

How would you build it? I'd like to see your thoughts! I was restricted to the Core Rule Book and the APG. I'll probably go straight Paladin after lvl 2, but I'm looking for a trait or a feat that allows me to use my Bard Arcane Spells with my Paladin Divine abilities.

The group I'm joining already has a Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, Cleric and a few others that might join in randomly as time allows. So I went with a secondary healer/melee/support option.

I went with:
Race: Human
STR 15
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 10
CHA 17

Paladin lvl 1
Bard lvl 1 (Arcane Dualist) APG p.80
Bonus Feat: Arcane Strike
lvl1: Feat: Lingering Performance ( APG p.153)
lvl1: Feat: Dodge

I was looking at Ultimate Magic and found these, but not sure if they'd work well. I want my spells and abilities to overlap/stack(?)

Ultimate Magic Feats::

Theurgy
You can blend the power of arcane and divine magic.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Int or Cha 13, able to cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to cast 1st-level divine spells.
Benefit: You can augment the power of your divine spells with arcane energy and augment your arcane spells with divine energy.
When casting a divine spell, you may sacrifice an arcane spell slot or arcane prepared spell of that spell's level or higher as a swift action. The caster level for that divine spell increases by +1.
When casting an arcane spell, you may sacrifice a divine spell slot or prepared divine spell of the same or higher level as a swift action. Half the damage dealt by the arcane spell becomes holy (if you channel positive energy) or unholy (if you channel negative energy).

This feat wouldn't take place til I'm lvl 4 in Paladin and overall 5th lvl.
Unsanctioned Knowledge
You have searched though forbidden texts and are privy to powerful but proscribed magic.
Prerequisites: Int 13, ability to cast 1st-level paladin spells.
Benefit: Pick one 1st-level spell, one 2nd-level spell, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell from the bard, cleric, inquisitor, or oracle spell lists. Add these spells to your paladin spell list as paladin spells of the appropriate level. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed.

Andoran

Mechanically, this is a bad idea, and eninently not worth it. All Theurgy lets you do is burn your Bard spells to up your CL to...what it would be if you'd gone straight Paladin. Or burn your Paladin spels to cast as a 2nd level Bard.

Instead, just go Paladin and (after you get spells), feel free to grab Unsanctioned Knowledge.

Or go mostly Bard but dip for two or three levels of Paladin (getting Divine Grace and maybe Aura of Courage). Or hell, go straight Bard.

Either a straight Bard or a straight Paladin will be a mjuch more effective character than this idea.

Qadira

Thank you Deadmanwalking

I'm not planning to take the Theurgy feat, I'm looking for something that helps me use my Arcane with my Divine as a Paladin of say... Shelyn, I think that Bardic abilities should be allowed or at least something that helps with this build.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would also caution against this; it could work alright, but probably never as well as a straight paladin or bard.

If you want a healing/support option you're better off straight bard, and say you worship Shelyn. Paladin doesn't provide a lot to help with support; it's more of the smashy smashy type. Two levels will get you a bonus to saves and a weak healing ability that is mostly for yourself.

If you are still interested in paladin, as Deadmanwalking suggested, Unsanctioned Knowledge is a great way to get some bard spellcasting (and it's one of the few ways to get good hope on a non-bard. There is no real way to mesh the two classes as far as spellcasting goes short of Theurgy or the mystic theurge (and please don't do that to yourself as a paladin/bard).


If you want to do this, you want to either start as bard or paladin. If you start as bard get to level 7, than start paladin. If you start as Paladin get to lvl 2 or 4 than start bard levels. You really don't want to do 1 lvl bard, 1 lvl pally.

Whether you dip 2 levels in paladin or 4 levels depends on whether you want to pick Oath of Vengence and what you want to accomplish with the character.

You always want at least 7 levels of bard for this multiclass, because this way you can start a performance as a move action, and save on the action economy.

Osirion

If you're looking for a blend of bard spellcasting in Paladin, my recommendation is to worship Shelyn, take the Sacred Servant Archetype that grants you access to a domain, pick the Charm domain, and take the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat to add a bunch of bard spells to your spell list. That's about as close to a bardic paladin as you're gonna get without decreasing your abilities.

Keep in mind that you need 13 Int. to take the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Davor wrote:

If you're looking for a blend of bard spellcasting in Paladin, my recommendation is to worship Shelyn, take the Sacred Servant Archetype that grants you access to a domain, pick the Charm domain, and take the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat to add a bunch of bard spells to your spell list. That's about as close to a bardic paladin as you're gonna get without decreasing your abilities.

Keep in mind that you need 13 Int. to take the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat.

This could work pretty well. You'd be able to pull off 5 skills as a human with 14 int, which is *approaching* bard-like, and you could dedicate yourself to Shelyn, as she's NG.

Sczarni

Quote:
Benefit: Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice.

Magical Knack the trait I think will help you out a tad. I think this is what you were trying to do (not 100% sure).

Qadira

Davor wrote:
Quote:

If you're looking for a blend of bard spellcasting in Paladin, my recommendation is to worship Shelyn, take the Sacred Servant Archetype that grants you access to a domain, pick the Charm domain, and take the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat to add a bunch of bard spells to your spell list. That's about as close to a bardic paladin as you're gonna get without decreasing your abilities.

Keep in mind that you need 13 Int. to take the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat.

Yes, I can see how that would work, but I wouldn't gain the benefits of the Arcane Dualist, specifically Arcane Strike (which is only good for lower levels), but also 'Rallying Cry' which would allow my teammates to use my saving throws against fear and despair effects. Though I'm not sure how often that comes up, but I think being able to take a Paladins save vs fear would be epic.

Arcane Duelist:

A master of the martial applications of steel and spell, the arcane duelist blends both into a lethal combination.
Arcane Strike

Arcane duelists gain Arcane Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level.

This ability replaces bardic knowledge.
Bardic Performance

An arcane duelist gains the following types of bardic performance:

Rallying Cry (Su): At 1st level, an arcane duelist can use performance to rally dispirited allies. Each round he makes an Intimidate check. Any ally (including the bard) within 30 feet may use this check in place of his own saving throw against fear and despair effects. Those already under a fear or despair effect can attempt a new save each round using the bard’s Intimidate check. Rallying cry does not work on effects that don’t allow saves. This is a mind-affecting ability that uses audible components.

This performance replaces countersong.

Bladethirst (Su): An arcane duelist of 6th level or higher may use performance to grant one weapon, one natural weapon, one end of a double weapon, or 50 items of ammunition of the same type within 30 feet a +1 enhancement bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by +1 for every three levels after 6th (maximum +5 at 18th level). These bonuses stack with existing bonuses and may be used to increase the item’s enhancement bonus up to +5 or to add any of the following weapon properties: defending, distance, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, shocking burst, seeking, speed, or wounding. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before adding special abilities.

This performance replaces suggestion.

Mass Bladethirst (Su): An arcane duelist of 18th level or higher can use his bladethirst performance to enhance the weapons of as many allies as desired within 30 feet. The bonus provided by this power is +4 if conferred on two allies, +3 for three allies, +2 for four allies, and +1 for five or more allies. The power granted to each weapon must be identical.

This ability replaces mass suggestion.

Bonus Feats

An arcane duelist weaves might and magic in his combat style, gaining the following bonus feats at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter:

* 2nd level—Combat Casting
* 6th level—Disruptive
* 10th level—Spellbreaker
* 14th level—Penetrating Strike
* 18th level—Greater Penetrating Strike.

This ability replaces versatile performance and well-versed.

Arcane Bond (Ex)

At 5th level, an arcane duelist gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, using a weapon as his bonded item. He may not choose a familiar or other type of bonded item. He may use the hand holding his bonded weapon for somatic components.

This ability replaces lore master.

Arcane Armor (Ex)

At 10th level, an arcane duelist gains Medium Armor Proficiency and can cast bard spells in medium armor with no chance of arcane spell failure. At 16th level, he gains Heavy Armor Proficiency and can cast bard spells in heavy armor with no arcane spell failure.

This ability replaces jack of all trades.

This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.

Qadira

ossian666 wrote:
Quote:
Benefit: Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice.
Magical Knack the trait I think will help you out a tad. I think this is what you were trying to do (not 100% sure).

I'm still new to Caster types, so does this trait mean that I would be able to cast the lvl 2 & 3 spells that I get as a bonus for a high ability score in Charisma?

Sczarni

Magical knack just means you cast as if you were 2 levels higher. it doesn't mean you are a caster of 2 levels higher.

It won't let you cast the spells of a 5th level Bard if you are only 3rd level. But if your over all character level is 5th and 3 of that is Bard, then the save DCs and effects (ex: the number of bolts shot with Magic Missile) are treated as if you are a 5th level Bard.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ossian666 wrote:

Magical knack just means you cast as if you were 2 levels higher. it doesn't mean you are a caster of 2 levels higher.

It won't let you cast the spells of a 5th level Bard if you are only 3rd level. But if your over all character level is 5th and 3 of that is Bard, then the save DCs and effects (ex: the number of bolts shot with Magic Missile) are treated as if you are a 5th level Bard.

Noting that save DCs do not increase with level, and that magic missile is not on the bard spell list.

Sczarni

Hence the "ex:" meaning "example"

Everything said was an "example" to help someone new to the game understand, but I guess the easier way to do it would be to go ahead and quote lengthy passages from the book in order to further confuse and confound the poor lad.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No need to be grumpy about it. People read things on the forum and assume they're correct without checking rules. If I were a brand new player, there would be a chance of me reading your post and saying "Wow, I get to add my caster level to all my spell DCs?"

Qadira

Thank you everyone for replying.

If I get this right, with the 'magical knack' trait, then just the spells for the bard would be cast at a +2 caster level, I wouldn't function as a bard caster 3 levels higher and would not gain access to the charisma ability bonus spells for my stat line listed at the beginning of the book?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That is correct.


Arcane duelist is better with 1 level of urban barbarian.

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