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How broken is entangle?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

Osirion

I mean really? long range, 40' radius, long duration, doesnt matter if its grass/shrubs/ trees.....Geeze. My party is in a forest, and the druid can pretty much set the angle on any combat.

We also had a dilema - in the book it say it only grapples foes....really? your buddy the full plate clad fighter can walk in and hack apart the entangled 'foes' no problem. We debated this and believe that it means creatures not foes (thus anyone).

I have a fair amount of outside encounters to do in this campaign; any points/observations about this?


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I don't see the word 'foe' or any variation on it anywhere in the text of the Entangle spell. Ditto 'grapple'.

So yes, Entangle impacts everyone in the area... it explicitly says that. No, it doesn't cause people to be grappled... merely "entangled", which is an entirely different effect that just slows them to half movement speed and imposes some minor penalties on attacks and dexterity checks.

Not an overpowered spell at all. It is a situational effect that comes in handy any time it would be useful to slow enemies down / constrain them to an area for a while. For instance, stopping them from fleeing (or following you while YOU flee)... keeping melee attackers away from your ranged attackers... holding enemies inside the bounds of a harmful effect (e.g. Cloudkill) longer... et cetera.


My book doesn't say 'foes', it says 'creatures', which we've always taken to mean ANY creatures, friend or foe. It is pretty powerful but it has its limitations. It doesn't stop those creatures from pulling out missile weapons (or spells) and firing at the party... just be slowed til they get out.

And it IS only 1st level, so how high can the save be? 11+stat mod... so it's make-able by many creatures.

And actually hinders all the party's primary melee fighters - they can't get to the foes any more than the foes can get to the party. Whenever I used it as the party druid, all i got was 'take down that damn entangle please', so I turned to other spells, sigh.

Osirion

My bad on the grappled misprint. I just read another thread debating entangle, and it seems to bring up the idea that you are imobilized if the entangling is caused by something that is stationary - like roots. My druid (aka rules lawyer) will be upset if i take away the mobilization, which is where i am leaning. I mean if you save, you are still in difficult terrain. If you fail you are in difficult terrain AND gain the entangled condition - this is a massive area and range too mind you.
Seems way more fair.

Sczarni

Entangle:

This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.

If the plants in the area are covered in thorns, those in the area take 1 point of damage each time they fail a save against the entangle or fail a check made to break free. Other effects, depending on the local plants, might be possible at GM discretion.

Entangled condition:
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.

How is this spell broken? I never even get to use it on druid since its always urban type area and worst of all it effects everyone. That aside its good to split NPCs and/or ranged attack them to death. You can use Selective Metamagic feat to make it work on enemies only tho.

Shadow Lodge

it actually does say foes in my CRB second printing. to imply that it is a spell that affects only enemies, but it was erattad after being concidered to be over powering.

this spell is hands down the BEST first level spell in this game. you can single handedly knock a large number of creatures out of the fight with a single level 1 spell.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
TheSideKick wrote:

it actually does say foes in my CRB second printing. to imply that it is a spell that affects only enemies, but it was erattad after being concidered to be over powering.

this spell is hands down the BEST first level spell in this game. you can single handedly knock a large number of creatures out of the fight with a single level 1 spell.

color spray > entangle

Osirion

The issue seems to be the line in condition about being anchored; i would love a hard and fast official ruling on whether or not it anchors creatures. None of this debate
about grass vs shrubs vs trees being more likely to anchor than others either. I'm looking for yes or no.

Shadow Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:
color spray > entangle

no way

Osirion

Color spray does nothing to higher levels IIR. You can mess up a fire giant with 12" of grass with entangle


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Indivar wrote:
it seems to bring up the idea that you are imobilized if the entangling is caused by something that is stationary - like roots.

This is correct, fail your save and you are immobilised if the entangling object is rooted. However that's not as tough as it may sound, you get a reflex save or a strength check to break free and continue moving on your turn (so the fire giant isn't slowed down for long). The worst thing entangle does is not immobilise foes but slow them down (it makes terrain difficult) and break up their attack into manageable chunks.

It's a powerful spell but very situational. if you are in a forest, a druid is going to own it, because that's what druids do. If you are underground, in a dungeon, in a desert, on a city street...it's useless. So let your druid shine while he can, because come the next chapter he'll be playing second fiddle.

Sczarni

You can mess up giant with any Save or die spell also, it doesn't really matter does it?
Entangle is 1 of few druid lv1 spells that's actually very good in his natural terrain.


Dabbler wrote:


It's a powerful spell but very situational. if you are in a forest, a druid is going to own it, because that's what druids do. If you are underground, in a dungeon, in a desert, on a city street...it's useless. So let your druid shine while he can, because come the next chapter he'll be playing second fiddle.

Pretty much spot on.


JAF0 wrote:

My book doesn't say 'foes', it says 'creatures', which we've always taken to mean ANY creatures, friend or foe. It is pretty powerful but it has its limitations. It doesn't stop those creatures from pulling out missile weapons (or spells) and firing at the party... just be slowed til they get out.

And it IS only 1st level, so how high can the save be? 11+stat mod... so it's make-able by many creatures.

And actually hinders all the party's primary melee fighters - they can't get to the foes any more than the foes can get to the party. Whenever I used it as the party druid, all i got was 'take down that damn entangle please', so I turned to other spells, sigh.

In my group we would have requested "more entangle please!!", and just pulled our ranged weapons and had us a carnival shoot (entangle gives -2 to attacks and -4 to Dex, which is -4 net to ranged attacks and -2 AC), which makes them the sitting ducks against the party's ranged attackers. Since everyone in our group has at least a sling, it's good stuff. :P


Indivar wrote:
Color spray does nothing to higher levels IIR. You can mess up a fire giant with 12" of grass with entangle

Color spray still stuns in a cone to enemies with 5 or more HD. It's like a good-for-bad sound burst, since sound burst is a 2nd level spell so it has a higher DC, a much higher range and does 1d8 damage, but color spray is a 1st level spell and has a much higher chance of being enhanced by Spell Focus (illusion) by an illusionist than a cleric does of enhancing sound burst with Spell Focus (evocation).

It's alright.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
JAF0 wrote:

My book doesn't say 'foes', it says 'creatures', which we've always taken to mean ANY creatures, friend or foe. It is pretty powerful but it has its limitations. It doesn't stop those creatures from pulling out missile weapons (or spells) and firing at the party... just be slowed til they get out.

And it IS only 1st level, so how high can the save be? 11+stat mod... so it's make-able by many creatures.

And actually hinders all the party's primary melee fighters - they can't get to the foes any more than the foes can get to the party. Whenever I used it as the party druid, all i got was 'take down that damn entangle please', so I turned to other spells, sigh.

In my group we would have requested "more entangle please!!", and just pulled our ranged weapons and had us a carnival shoot (entangle gives -2 to attacks and -4 to Dex, which is -4 net to ranged attacks and -2 AC), which makes them the sitting ducks against the party's ranged attackers. Since everyone in our group has at least a sling, it's good stuff. :P

Don't forget cover, though.


My group want to kill the druid everytime he only thinks the word "entagle", most times it hurts the group more then the NSC (especially the melees). :)


In a 3.5 game I was in, a Druid cast Entangle and started picking off foes with her bow. Then one crit her with a longbow of their own, max damage. My Cleric with a penalty to Dex did not enjoy wading through Entangle and failing concentration checks to try to heal her.

Shadow Lodge

Tryn wrote:
My group want to kill the druid everytime he only thinks the word "entagle", most times it hurts the group more then the NSC (especially the melees). :)

all characters with an intelligence over 7 would know going anywhere without a ranged attack is a bad idea.


Entangle is one of those spells I really wish was toned down. Not the effect of it. Just the size. Give me an entangle the size of obscuring mist, and I'm happy.


The official PRD says "creatures"; the unofficial one says "foes". So mind your sources.

It's been nerfed somewhat since 3.0 where the Escape Artist and Str DC was 20. That really was broken. It also had the ambiguous words "...cannot move...". So I suspect a lot of people remember the old 3e version and haven't noticed the subtle changes.


It's very weak, but covers a large area.

I've found Plant Growth to be crazier. Instant duration and inflicts a severe nerf (speed 5 or 10). No save either. Of course, in the core book it says nothing about leaving friends alone; fortunately, my druid PC has that trait (forestwalk?) that essentially renders him immune to such spells, although it's possible I read that wrong.

In the last encounter of our last Kingmaker session, we faced a "druid" and two dire lions that we hadn't seen. My druid covered the entire field with plant growth (great terrain), preventing the lions from making charge attacks.

Of course, several melee characters were nerfed as they were caught in the field, and one of them (a cavalier) really needed the help. One PC used Extended Command to force a lion to approach him (very slowly), naturally provoking attacks of opportunity.


Dabbler wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
JAF0 wrote:

My book doesn't say 'foes', it says 'creatures', which we've always taken to mean ANY creatures, friend or foe. It is pretty powerful but it has its limitations. It doesn't stop those creatures from pulling out missile weapons (or spells) and firing at the party... just be slowed til they get out.

And it IS only 1st level, so how high can the save be? 11+stat mod... so it's make-able by many creatures.

And actually hinders all the party's primary melee fighters - they can't get to the foes any more than the foes can get to the party. Whenever I used it as the party druid, all i got was 'take down that damn entangle please', so I turned to other spells, sigh.

In my group we would have requested "more entangle please!!", and just pulled our ranged weapons and had us a carnival shoot (entangle gives -2 to attacks and -4 to Dex, which is -4 net to ranged attacks and -2 AC), which makes them the sitting ducks against the party's ranged attackers. Since everyone in our group has at least a sling, it's good stuff. :P
Don't forget cover, though.

What about cover, exactly? Nothing in entangle grants cover, so I'm confused as to what you mean.

Shadow Lodge

The main hindrance to it is that its situational: you need grasses and shrubs around for it to work. For an adventurer in a city or a dungeon it doesn't work: so when it CAN work it should be getting more bang than most first level spells.


It both requires the right terrain area and the gigantic radius that you cannot reduce is just as likely to hinder allies (unless you use the d20pfsrd version, I guess). In the right group (heavy on the ranged firepower) and setting (mostly outdoors), it can be very good. In a game that's melee heavy party and mostly urban or dungeon crawling, it's completely worthless.

It's fine.

Silver Crusade

This is from the 5th printing of the Core Rulebook.

Entangle
School transmutation; Level druid 1, ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text; Spell Resistance: no
This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around
creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures
that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that
make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the
area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move
into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their
movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures
can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or
Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the
spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while
the effect lasts.
If the plants in the area are covered in thorns, those in the area
take 1 point of damage each time they fail a save against the entangle
or fail a check made to break free. Other effects, depending on the
local plants, might be possible at GM discretion.


I always thought battlefield control spells were kind of stupid. I took it off the spell lists for my E6 game, though I'm allowing it for the mostly RAW game I'm running right now.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Situationally, it's quite powerful.

Spoiler:
In Burnt Offerings, my PCs ended up engaging the druid Gogmurt while still in the cramped hallways of the thistles. The combination of the squeezing and the massive area of the entangle brought their melee attacks down by 6, ranged by 7, and AC by 6. I initially had the druid's cat charge (right before the entangle was cast), which ended up blocking the hallway and making it impossible for the PCs to approach Gogmurt. Combine that with Gogmurt's +7 modifier on his flame touch spell and the damage the thistles caused to all entangled characters… It was extremely close to a TPK (and they never actually killed Gogmurt - he ran away through the walls when he ran out of healing).

When I run that again I will probably get rid of the squeezing penalty.


IN......

Spoiler:
Kingmaker it is the one thing to save the party from a troll encounter at very low level....cast and leg it

Qadira

Mudfoot wrote:
The official PRD says "creatures"; the unofficial one says "foes". So mind your sources.

I was not aware that the errata for this one had not been applied on d20pfsrd.com. It has now.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
...If you are underground, in a dungeon, in a desert, on a city street...it's useless. So let your druid shine while he can, because come the next chapter he'll be playing second fiddle.

That made me LOL a bit, Druid playing second fiddle because he can't cast entangle or use woodland stride...

Silver Crusade

How big a plant does the druid need to cast this spell? I know it works in a forest, and doesn't work in a city. But could a druid carry a potted plant around to throw near the enemies in the first round, then cast Entangle on it in the second round?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Entangle was nerfed from 3.5. It used to be much more powerful.

Web is the stronger of these 2 spells now.

And Color Spray is way better than Entangle nowadays.

Silver Crusade

TheSideKick wrote:
Tryn wrote:
My group want to kill the druid everytime he only thinks the word "entagle", most times it hurts the group more then the NSC (especially the melees). :)
all characters with an intelligence over 7 would know going anywhere without a ranged attack is a bad idea.

You'd be amazed. Back in 1st edition days, we all knew that every character should carry a melee weapon and ranged weapon everywhere, even if they sucked with them.

Upon returning to the game after a 20 year absence, I've been amazed at how many players make characters that don't have ANY ranged weapon. And these are often the most knowledgeable, experienced players, too. This just totally blows my mind. I'd never think of creating a character without at least a sling or some sort of ranged spell.

Silver Crusade

BYC wrote:

Entangle was nerfed from 3.5. It used to be much more powerful.

Web is the stronger of these 2 spells now.

And Color Spray is way better than Entangle nowadays.

Web is a higher level spell. And the downside of Color Spray is the 15 foot range. If the bad guy makes the save, your squishy caster is in trouble.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fromper wrote:
BYC wrote:

Entangle was nerfed from 3.5. It used to be much more powerful.

Web is the stronger of these 2 spells now.

And Color Spray is way better than Entangle nowadays.

Web is a higher level spell. And the downside of Color Spray is the 15 foot range. If the bad guy makes the save, your squishy caster is in trouble.

I always take that chance. They are probably not going to save against my DC15 or higher, and since all of my characters have 14 CON minimum, I have 9 HP at level 1. If I get hit, I don't die. If I get hit by multiple creatures, I go into negatives but still live. If they get lucky and all of them save, so be it. Good far outweighs the bad.

Silver Crusade

The point of Entangle and it being a druid spell and only working in the forest is to, you know, keep up with the whole point of the druid.

It's kind of like you taking a spell like Water Breathing and getting made because it doesn't work anywhere else.

Silver Crusade

BYC wrote:
Fromper wrote:
BYC wrote:

Entangle was nerfed from 3.5. It used to be much more powerful.

Web is the stronger of these 2 spells now.

And Color Spray is way better than Entangle nowadays.

Web is a higher level spell. And the downside of Color Spray is the 15 foot range. If the bad guy makes the save, your squishy caster is in trouble.
I always take that chance. They are probably not going to save against my DC15 or higher, and since all of my characters have 14 CON minimum, I have 9 HP at level 1. If I get hit, I don't die. If I get hit by multiple creatures, I go into negatives but still live. If they get lucky and all of them save, so be it. Good far outweighs the bad.

Oh, I never said it wasn't worth the risk. Color Spray is the first level 1 spell I took for my sorcerer.

I'm just pointing out that there's a downside to every spell, so claiming that Color Spray is way better than Entangle doesn't tell the whole story. Entangle has the advantage of being usable from a distance with minimal risk. Color Spray has a bigger impact on the fight, but also carries the the bigger risk because of its short range.


Entangle is a great spell but is limited to being useful mostly outdoors in terrain with significant plant life. Rocky mountains, deserts, tundra, rocks, or underground is a serious enough impediment to make it less than overpowered.

It's a great spell for an NPC druid protecting their woods though.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
The main hindrance to it is that its situational: you need grasses and shrubs around for it to work. For an adventurer in a city or a dungeon it doesn't work: so when it CAN work it should be getting more bang than most first level spells.

The spell needs, "tall grass, weeds, [or] other plants." That's a pretty broad requirement.

Weeds growing in the cracks of city streets? ENTANGLE!

Potted plant in a room, or heck just outside a window? ENTANGLE!

Roots from surface plants growing from a cave ceiling? ENTANGLE!

Mosses and Lichens are plants, too. Heck, most fungi were considered plants up until the 19th century!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
What about cover, exactly? Nothing in entangle grants cover, so I'm confused as to what you mean.

Although you can use entangle where there is only ground cover, shrubs, bushes and trees are just as common, and these will provide some cover if you choose to shoot the entangled.

best tactic is one missiler and one meleer with a reach weapon to deal with them as they fight their way free.


If tall grass is required, I would expect tall weeds to be required as well.
I rather like the idea of a druid hobbling around with five bonsai trees tied to his back, though....


Malag wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **
How is this spell broken? I never even get to use it on druid since its always urban type area and worst of all it effects everyone. That aside its good to split NPCs and/or ranged attack them to death. You can use Selective Metamagic feat to make it work on enemies only tho.

I think selective only works on spells with duration of instantaneous


I had a druid that used to carry around potted plants just so they could toss them into the middle of enemies and cast Entangle.


Thread necromancy much?

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