Well, unless you have an objection to it...I'm tempted to include the Witch-King Ashiel in my campaign setting now. :D*eyes light up* Reawy? Q.Q
None at all! :D
Aristocrats by definition are the ruling class. Their class essence is all about rulership and all the essential bits about being a noble.
Or let's put it this way, a nation may be founded by the Barbarian leader of a Barbarian Horde. If it however lasts long enough to evolve as a culture, it's later rulers will eventually be Aristocrats.
Except, mechanics don't support that at all. Bard (my default answer), Conversion Inquisitor, or Horizon Walker (good one!) all have boost to the relevant skills, and command/control/communication/intel class abilities.
Any Class can rule. It depends more on the stats of the individual and their personalities. Sure, mechanically the higher charisma classes works better. But as stated before, it also depends on the setting. Where a king is respected for his strength the Sorcerer might not work out the best. :P
Also, Dwarves would rather have a wise king than one that talks well.
rogue horizon walker, has lots of wizards and clerics as coucelors of course.
Takes favourite terrain: urban first, than ALL the others.
Holy s*@+snacks, a Rogue Horizon Walker can be a beast.
Thanks for all the Feedback. Lots of great posts.
If i were to make a king\queen that was mechanically speaking "the best" ie highest skill ranks in what a ruler needs, I would probably make a Geisha Bard 20, use oratory as her perform skill that gets a 1/2 lvl bonus, take versatile performance: oratory, which gives you diplomacy and sense motive with the oratory score. She would have a lvl 18 cleric cohort with the glory domain as her main adviser, giving her a plus 18 bonus to one charisma check within an hour when she needed to make a speech or sense when someone is lying. she would also have many other perform skills at max ranks which allows her to simply use her charisma to rule, though I would try to get her other mental stats up as well. I think that the classic job of a bard is to be the Face as well as support, so this isn't a too far fetched build.
Mechanically speaking, she would have the best skills to rule in the classic fantasy kingdom setting imo, but PF is hardly the classic setting, and if you're only using mechanics, it seems kind of silly for all kings to start out bards. As said before, many societies value some abilities over others, and even classes over others, and by default all rulers are usu. aristocrats. For this post though, I am talking about only character classes done with adventuring.
I made a post about getting your diplomacy as high as possible a little while ago here: Diplomacy Post
I got the idea for this character from Ughbash's idea under that post:
Level 20 Geisha using versatile Performance Oratory for diplomacy.
36 Charisma +13
20 ranks +20
Trained +3
Geisha Bonus half level +10
Skill Focus Oratory +6
Savant Trait +2
Prodigy +4
Tea Ceremony (inspire competence) +6
Voice of the Sybil +3
Luck stone +1
Ensemble +8
Masterwork Tools (the right outfit) +2
Moment of Prescience +20
Greater Heroism +4
Moment of Greatness +4
Touch of glory (Cohort) +18
124
Idea was to boost Performance Oratory and use versatile performance to use Performance Oratory roll for all diplomacy rolls. This also gives you Sense Motive at the same Epic level.
Orignally I had a +30 item in there but saw you did not want any custome items. That would add 24 to the number as it would not stack with Tea Ceremony.
I want to build the lvl 20 Bard Geisha. I wonder if i can squeeze out more than 36 Charisma by lvl 20. I guess there's age bonuses. Can anyone think of other ways to get charisma even higher for my lvl 20 Geisha Queen?
I want to build the lvl 20 Bard Geisha. I wonder if i can squeeze out more than 36 Charisma by lvl 20. I guess there's age bonuses. Can anyone think of other ways to get charisma even higher for my lvl 20 Geisha Queen?
succubus mistress for another +2.
There's nothing that beats the class features of Aristocrat when it comes to rulership, unless it's the Noble class from LSJ.
Um… the Aristocrat has no class features. Let's compare it to a wizard:
Hit Dice
Aristocrats have larger hit dice. But then, this only matters if you are being attacked and your assigned bodyguards have failed. Wizards have smaller hit dice, but also have… spells.
Base Attack Bonus
Aristocrats have a larger base attack bonus. But then, this only matters if you are fending off an attack that has already killed your bodyguards. Wizards have a smaller base attack bonus, but also have… spells.
Starting wealth
Aristocrats have a larger starting amount of gold pieces. However, if you look at how much a wizard's spell book costs… Also, starting wealth doesn't matter after first level. And, PC Wealth goes much higher than NPC Wealth.
Proficiencies
Aristocrats are proficient with Martial Weapons, armor, and shields. Wizards use spells.
Skills
Aristocrats do shine here. They have two more skill points per level, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perception, Perform, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim, and Survival. Wizards have Fly and Spellcraft. But Wizards also have spells… seeing a theme here? Additionally, while an Aristocrat might certainly have a high Intelligence, all successful Wizards will - which gives them more skill points. And in Pathfinder, all a class skill gets you is a +3 bonus (granted, it's very nice); putting ranks into a skill that is not a class skill is not a debilitating act.
Class Features
Aristocrats get none. Wizards get an arcane bond, infinite cantrips, possible specialty school bonuses, and Scribe Scroll, as well as a bonus wizarding Feat every five levels. Also, they get spells.
Have I mentioned that they get spells?
Really, the only question here is what type of wizard would be best to lead. I'm going with a conjurer - the aforementioned ability to summon up high Charisma aids is splendid, and it also means that you can always conjure up some loyal guards in the case of an attack.
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Kings pass the job to their children.m the pc who happened to be his next of kin. Wtf did they let him adventure? Must have not been the favored child.
On a more helpful note. Urban ranger. Favored enemy human or the kingdoms main population. Makes it hard to lie to the king, hide really good,,find traps, hit hard, huge bonuses to everything and can function if the gods die, magic dies, and can beat his opponents in a duel.
Edit: add the spirit ranger archatype too
Edit edit: they can't pair, grumpble...
As evidenced by the Kingmaker AP, character class in not the most important aspect of any potential ruler. What's really important is CHA and the skills that are associated with it.
Bard > All
If you could vote for King\Queen of the realm among all the classes after the campaign is over and you've reached the highest level you wanted to play to, say lvl 15-20, which character class would you think would do the best job and why? Best as in not blow up the world, and generally make the place prosper.
Lets say all classes have leadership, and are optimized for their respective rolls as adventurers.
Each class has its place, so you can include what\where and over whom your voted class would end up ruling.
Side note: Are some alignments simply better suited for rule than others on a large scale? Include the alignment of your voted leader.
Lots of different philosophies on this and I just wanted to see some opinions.
Depends on the realm. I could see a Barbarian/Oracle (Ancestors)/Rage Prophet being quite good for certain realms, Bards for others, Rogue HWs for others, and Paladins or Inquisitors in yet others. Wizards definitely have a fantastic toolset and can easily pull off the King/Queen thing, too.
I think the definition of prosper needs to be clarified for the sake of the debate, as well, but that's an entirely different thing.
The best option would be for the player characters to form a ruling council in order to pool their abilities. The head of state should be the character with the highest charisma and best social skills. The actual person in charge should be whoever brokered the best deal for sharing power.
This is a most interesting thread, as it reveals how many of us view our respective fantasy worlds in a more Social Science context.
As for my answer, I would have to say that "it depends", as in which stage of development a given kingdom would find itself. Off-the-cuff, I would say a warrior-king, with a healthy CHA score and the Leadership feat would be the most fit to rule, and this goes for various stages of development/decline in a civilization too, including our modern world.
Why? People respect power, especially the power to take away your property and your freedom, and the power to protect those same things from outside enemies, be they financial enemies (corporations) or literal ones (tyrants with armies). A strong leader commands the troops, and the court, and gets results, be they altruistic, or selfish ones.
A Fighter? In a fantasy world, I'm tempted to believe that's what most of the population would see as "effective", as these are the heroic figures who lead the young men into battle. Most of the population doesn't understand magic, or is very suspicious of it, and Clerics, while popular for what they DO, might be seen as suspicious in the long-run for what they ultimately want. Unless your fantasy world has universal education for all, and a rational mind-set, it's going to be difficult to get past the rhetoric of the "Great Generals and Heroes" myths.
and "Lawful Good", of course.
Wizard:
magical inelligence network.
First strike capability on neighbors
Clone(s), you cant keep a good wizard down
OR
Druid, awesome agricultural power.
Control wather?
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I'm just going to add the most seemingly obvious, to me at least, answer: a paladin of Abadar. A lawful good leader focused on cities, wealth, merchants and law. How much more ideal if a leader could you want? A high cha, a desire to protect people and they can't lie to you. Sounds pretty good to me.
Second choice: paladin of Erastil. A follower of a god focused on farming, hunting, trade and family. Plus see above for the other reasons.
Depends on what kind of ruler you want.
As in reality, the truth is that who rules best is who understands what ruling is, how to most effectively wield that power, and as in all managerial positions, who assigns competent people to the tasks of carrying out governmental decrees, and gets out of their way. Delegation is the key to effective management.
The three mental stats are of prime importance, or, in a ruler who is not of a class that specializes in them, the presence of trustworthy advisors who can help said ruler make good calls.
A king with the fighter class will simply have a larger council to advise him than a wizard might.
But really, ruling well is a function of the character, not the stats. There are feats, stats, and skills that give one an advantage, but there is no feat or skill (that I know of) for making the right decision. Creating lasting peace and prosperity for your people - there is no class ability for this.
It's all in the character.
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So an enchanter (wizard) would not make a good ruler? I think Ashiel is on to a good thing. Just because a class has "social" skills as their class skills does not restrict other classes from taking them - or that they should not take them as they lack a +3 to their total modifier. There are feats or traits that can compensate for that weakness, though its not necessary.
Where does it say that wizard would rather be pouring over old tomes and musty scrolls to the exclusion of ruling? That is like saying a rogue only wants to disarm traps and stab people in the back to the exclusion of ruling!
If you're dealing with a 15th+ level wizard, she is almost at the top of her game. There are some levels to go, but she might start looking for other opportunities and responsibilities to fill her time. May be her long term goal was to harness her Intelligence, focus on magic and then rule a kingdom?
I would be put my vote forward for an enchanter (with their bonuses to social skills) as a prime choice for a ruler.
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Regarding Bards, I don't think they could command the respect that ruler requires, and they are usually too chaotic to make an efficient leader.
A mystically empowered master Orator who specializes in Charisma and mind control, as well as being an expert swordsman? Why couldn't he command respect?
And Bards don't have any Alignment restrictions.
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Having a good wisdom score will keep your position as ruler for longer. The ability to sense the motives of others, and the common sense to deal with such knowledge appropriately. This powerful impact of a good wisdom, is why I again suggest the Inquisitor, who, with the conversion inquistion, can use his wisdom for all his social skills. This will make him a master manipulator, with the sense to use it appropriately. The Inquisitor can also his wisdom for a number of knowledge checks, bringing together the ruling force he is.
Wizards would make the most ''effective'' rulers, but their people wouldn't like them. If Wizards are like the scientists of our world, the majority of the population would rather follow a tyrannical Cleric or Oracle rather than a clever and gentle Wizard. This is assuming that people in a fantasy world would have the same mentality than people on Earth. Look how strong people's faith and obedience to religion is on Earth, a world with no evidence that god exist. Now imagine how people's faith and obedience to religion would be strong in a world were miracles and divine interventions would be actual facts. I just watched Dawkins' God Delusion by the way. :)
I, for one, would vote for king Conan!
Wizards would make awful rulers. The only classes that would be any good at it are classes that can play politics; because when you play the game of thrones you win or you die. The wizard can be as smart as he wants to be. I hope he can detect that poison in his cup because his spymaster dislikes him for whatever reason.
He can. That's a cantrip. Assuming he even eats thanks to the Ring of Sustenance.
I hope no one slips a bomb into his bed chambers, or stabs him while he sleeps.
Were I a brilliant Wizard king I'd open a Magnificent Mansion portal in my bedchambers (or wherever) assuming I even bothered sleeping on the material plane. (I'd be the only one who could enter.)
The hardest thing about ruling isn't the day to day activities of the kingdom you have no part in.
I agree with this. The day to day crap is what lackeys are for. Err, I mean valued counselors and such. Frankly, as the wizard king I'd have an army of high charisma bards/rogues to act as my diplomats/assassins.
It's staying alive against the wishes of the people who want to see you dead.
And I have to stop you again. Illusion, Clone, teleport, resilient sphere, contingency, etc etc etc. If you're coming for me, the wizard king, you better bring your A-game. Because even if you kill me once, I've planned well enough that my untimely demise will be a minor setback at most.
Edit: Then it's my turn to return the favor. Would you prefer the "eternity as a squirrel" or "still living head in a jar" fate?By far the most important skills are diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive. After that come the knowledges.
Agreed. Luckily as the wizard king I have a ridiculous intelligence. Assuming I don't feel like using my skill points in Bluff/diplomacy/sense motive, I'll be crafting a God-Wizard crown of +6 Intellect (with other fun tricks also). With said helm I get three skills with which to tie it to giving me ranks equal to my level. Guess which three skills I'll be choosing for all my formal functions?
Bards, Paladins and that's probably it.
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Lol here we go with wizards are all knowing and cannot be surprised thread.
Spell casting - is my food poisoned today? YES, my drink? YES. Is my door trapped? YES can I survive if I teleport away? NO. I end up dying because I cannot possibly stop everything from happening. Clones, preparations, magical items, all take serious work that can cause envy and angry tax payers. divination cannot answer all problems at once.
Trustworthy people are better, but even they are not safe from being used against you. Safer to live in a dungeon or hidden town or plane.
Lol here we go with wizards are all knowing and cannot be surprised thread.
Spell casting - is my food poisoned today? YES, my drink? YES. Is my door trapped? YES can I survive if I teleport away? NO.
Not all knowing, just notable intelligent and by nature of their class. If they're high level they've learned to prepare contingencies (not just the spell) in advance.
I end up dying because I cannot possibly stop everything from happening. Clones, preparations, magical items, all take serious work that can cause envy and angry tax payers. divination cannot answer all problems at once.
Can't that be said for any character/class?
Edit: Wizards bend reality to their whims on a daily basis. It's hard not to believe that would be helpful for a ruler.
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Edit: Wizards bend reality to their whims on a daily basis. It's hard not to believe that would be helpful for a ruler.
A lvl 20 craftsman speced in engineering and leading and trading could do just as well and train others and use non skilled labor to build wonders. And most of his students won't have the ability to blow up the town in a few years because it takes time, money, and people to build large dangerous objects.
Edit apparently I don't know how to quote right
-genetic drift
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I end up dying because I cannot possibly stop everything from happening.
However, 'everything' should not be happening every day. Unless there is an all out war on the wizard, he should be able to plan against the common attacks.
Poison in his food? Detect Poison.
Door trapped? Gaseous Form.
Can't teleport? Gaseous Form.
The only way the wizard can't protect himself is if the DM is specifically throwing overwhelming forces with specific counters to his abilities. That doesn't happen every day.
A lvl 20 craftsman speced in engineering and leading and trading could do just as well and train others and use non skilled labor to build wonders. And most of his students won't have the ability to blow up the town in a few years because it takes time, money, and people to build large dangerous objects.
Or he would, if only he had avoided the poison in his food, and the traps on his door, and whatever it was he needed to teleport away from and couldn't.
Edit: Wizards bend reality to their whims on a daily basis. It's hard not to believe that would be helpful for a ruler.
A lvl 20 craftsman speced in engineering and leading and trading could do just as well and train others and use non skilled labor to build wonders. And most of his students won't have the ability to blow up the town in a few years because it takes time, money, and people to build large dangerous objects.
Edit apparently I don't know how to quote right
-genetic drift
Can they do all that in one round? ;-)
There are easier ways to not get killed as a ruler than a bunch of magic hijinx. If being in a constant crazed paranoid state, makes the wizard the best to rule, well fine, I guess that works.
Not the only complete paranoid, just one of the best. ;-)
Seriously though, all rulers in a magical world will have spell casters on hand if they themselves are not. Even a fighter can have magical protections if he is king. Wizard kings will simply do it themselves.
There are easier ways to not get killed as a ruler than a bunch of magic hijinx. If being in a constant crazed paranoid state, makes the wizard the best to rule, well fine, I guess that works.
not the only completely paranoid ruler, just one of the best. ;-)
In a magical world kings will have magical backup. Even a Warrior king will have magical tricks to prevent assassination (for instance). Wizard kings will merely do it themselves.
Classes I haven't seen specifically mentioned: Antipaladin, Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai and Druid. I'm wondering why no one has singled any of them. Each of them could make a good ruler based on how some people debate for this class or that class.
Antipaladin-Who better to rule an evil kingdom? He's got charisma, a god on his side and no pesky things like "morals" to get in his way of getting stuff done and making sure the people know who's boss. You can't argue with the results.
Gunslinger-Wisdom should be an important aspect for any ruler, that and once you outfit your armies with your favorite kind of weapon the world will know of your clear superiority.
Ninja-Hey here's that charisma again, plus all the important skills you need with points to spare. It doesn't hurt having a clan of your shadow brothers to enforce your rule either.
Samurai-Who better to rule by the sword and to rule with honor?(See also Cavalier)
Druid-Creating a kingdom that lives in harmony with nature with a king who rules with wisdom, who can guarantee the crops will grow, and can also have this! We may just have the best one yet.
But seriously any class can rule, how well is determined by the character and the character is only as good as what you make of it.
It seems that many posts are stating Wizard, Bard, and Paladin. I think as many others on this thread do, that a staff of PC classes is the best way to rule. You can still rule o.k. with any class, but to rule well you need your bases covered. PC classes can cover all your bases, so there are many good adviser posts for them in the large kingdom of Fantasia.
Thanks for all the input!