I didn't know that there were 50 different gender identity options. I was hovering around 7 or so in my understanding. That's quite a bit of diversity. I don't yet know what some of them are. I'm going to be learning a lot over the next few days I think.
Part of how they get to 50 is by combining categories, or offering variations of categories.
So: Trans, Trans*, Trans Female, Trans* Female, Trans Male, Trans* Male, Trans Person, Trans* Person, Trans Man, Trans* Man, Trans Woman, Trans* Woman, FTM, MTF, Transgender, Transgender Female, Transgender Male, Transgender Man, Transgender Woman, Transgender Person, etc. (And the same set of options, more or less, for Cis.)
But there are categories like Agender, Bigender, Gender Fluid, Neither, Intersex, etc. Even Two-Spirit.
The only ones that were new to me (if the list I saw was complete) were Neutrois and Pangender.
That makes sense. What is the difference between Bigender and Bisexual? How does someone feel like they have no gender at all? What's the difference between agender and neither? What is Two-Spirit?
I'm asking because I need to know how I identify. I know that I'm me but when I try to explain myself to people I don't really know the right words so I end up confusing myself and them and then I get pigeonholed into something I don't identify as.
For example, one of my friends knows that I'm a crossdresser and a bisexual male. She has suggested that we go shopping and we can share a dressing room. I don't think she understands that I'm not gay. I try to explain it but since I prefer men when I'm dressed as a woman she thinks that it would be fine. It's still not fine. (That's skipping all the rules about sharing fitting rooms in the first place.)
If I could have a single word that described me I think I could focus on that and explain it to people when they ask. They would remember more because I took the time to explain a new term. If I keep using the term they are more likely to remember. This is the optimist in me speaking. I know it's not going to be quite that simple with some people.
How would you both even fit?
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That makes sense. What is the difference between Bigender and Bisexual? How does someone feel like they have no gender at all? What's the difference between agender and neither? What is Two-Spirit?
Bisexual refers to sexual orientation. Bigender refers to gender identity. (e.g. I'm bisexual, but I'm not bigender.) Some people find themselves detached from having a sense of any gender for themselves (if I understand agender correctly). Two-Spirit is a Native American term, referring to people who mix gender or gender roles in some way. From what I understand, there's a lot of variation in what Two-Spirit can specifically mean, depending on which tribe or nation you're talking about.
I'm asking because I need to know how I identify. I know that I'm me but when I try to explain myself to people I don't really know the right words so I end up confusing myself and them and then I get pigeonholed into something I don't identify as.
For example, one of my friends knows that I'm a crossdresser and a bisexual male. She has suggested that we go shopping and we can share a dressing room. I don't think she understands that I'm not gay. I try to explain it but since I prefer men when I'm dressed as a woman she thinks that it would be fine. It's still not fine. (That's skipping all the rules about sharing fitting rooms in the first place.)
Would "straight cross dresser" fit your identity? That's the impression I get from this description, and from your other posts.
If I could have a single word that described me I think I could focus on that and explain it to people when they ask. They would remember more because I took the time to explain a new term. If I keep using the term they are more likely to remember. This is the optimist in me speaking. I know it's not going to be quite that simple with some people.
There might not be a single word, given that gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things. Like I said earlier, I'm bisexual. I'm also transgender. So, trans and bi describes me. Or a bisexual trans woman. There isn't really a way to collapse that into a single word.
I'm not sure that you'll be able to find a single word that describes both your gender identity and your sexual orientation, though there are much more learned people in this thread who might have a better idea about that.
Edit to add: Bob, here's a description of the terms in the list over at The Washington Post.
Handicap stall. Some places have larger fitting rooms for larger ladies too.
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Would "straight cross dresser" fit your identity? That's the impression I get from this description, and from your other posts.
Bisexual crossdresser would be closer. I just prefer men when I'm dressed as a woman and I prefer women when I'm dressed as a man.
Thanks for the clarification on some of the other terms. It's hard to understand some things when you don't experience them yourself. I don't judge, I question for my own understanding.
Not to re-ignite the "cis" usage debate that pops up on the boards sometimes, but this early predecessor for the term is interesting. From 1914.
I realize I’ve probably been multiplying entities unnecessarily, especially examples, so I’ll try to clarify what I thought I was getting at in one of my earlier ones.
Yeah, I veered off topic there. And I think I misunderstood the point -- if the therapist is advising to be a "proper" man or woman? Okay, that's different. (I was reading it as "you seek therapy because people are telling you you are not conforming" which I realize now is not what Qunnessaa was getting at.)I *think* the "sought professional care" is the important part there. Plenty of boys and girls constantly have their gender challenged by other children. I've known at least one person who made a mistake when they transitioned ftm and it's important to at least remember that if you aren't trans when you start hormone therapy then you will be afterwards for sure. So at least one person was probably struggling with gender nonconformity and had that confirmed as transsexual by a therapist and a psychologist.
To make up another silly example, despite the social pressures to conform to gender norms and, perhaps, a slow expansion of trans issues into public consciousness, I haven’t heard of many cis people who, having been rebuked with the idea that they should be “a proper woman” or “a real man,” sought professional care to make sure they weren’t really transI've been rebuked for not being ladylike or girlish enough if that's what you mean, especially in my youth, but I haven't felt the need to seek out professional care on that front no, as I've largely been fairly certain the problem is the people rebuking me. I am who I am.
Yes, I certainly didn’t mean to suggest people should seek out therapy just because other people tell them they’re not gender-conforming. On the other hand, if, as Ms. Guillet pointed out, “plenty of boys and girls constantly have their gender challenged by other children,” why mightn’t they eventually seek professional care, especially if they do have questions about what gender means to them? Even cruelty might provide food for thought: one might think, “What a silly idea! That all women/men have to be [X, Y, or Z]! But, could they be on to something else? Do I really feel like a man/woman?” I mean, assuming care that at all lives up to current standards, wouldn’t the worst-case scenario be backing off from hormones once one discovers one really doesn’t like what they’re doing to one’s body? If most people don’t think that way, even if their gender might be nearly constantly challenged, I’m interested in why not, and it makes sense to me (at the moment) that it might be because they have a subconscious sense of their sex that, because it corresponds to their lived experience, is less “visible” to them than the equivalent sense in, say, trans people.
I like the phrase “subconscious sex” perhaps because it suggests loaded meanings. I feel there’s potential in it to explore the vexed problem of the relation between “sex” and “gender” as more generally understood and/or commonly defined. I take it as given that most everyone engages with what sex and gender mean to them, but I have a social-scientific interest in whether there are any patterns in how different groups of people approach the issues.
The thing is, as I understand it, cis people generally don’t examine the connections between their subconscious sex, their lived sex, and their gender. (Borrowing, very loosely indeed, Serano’s terms.) It all fits together, so they don’t have to.
Cis-gendered people never ask, never question, never explore gender and sex and what it does and what it means to them? Hell no. I would venture to say most people do, maybe all (though some would be terrified to admit it). The degrees to which vary, the reasons vary, but that is just part of being human. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest to my ears that cis-gendered persons aren't actually human at all. That I, in fact, am not a human being. Turnabout of sentiment is fair play, perhaps?
I winced when I read that, especially the last bit. I’m really sorry if that’s what I sounded like, and I’ll endeavour to communicate more clearly in future. I meant to be specific (all of the elements in the bit from my post, specifically and in that combination - maybe I should have written "usually" rather than "generally," too), and float a potential way of defining aspects of sex and gender more narrowly that I thought might be interesting to talk about how people of differing gender identities think about them. I certainly didn't mean to make anyone feel as if their humanity was in question; I apologize for the carelessness of my words.
Again, I do not think for a second my experiences of exploring or questioning gender or physicality are anything like a trans-person's, and I don't pretend for a second anything I may have experienced resembles a trans experience, as it certainly is not. I also think a transperson doesn't know what it's like to have explored, struggled with, or felt gender or sex the way I do.
((But for what it's worth, a talented transperson of any gender identity, cis-male, genderqueer or androgynous person, are all welcome to play me on TV in spite of our varying personal histories, just provided they all have an equal shot at the role and the best performer gets cast.))I am in fact certain part of the human experience is we all explore and struggle with gender to some extent, in each our own unique ways. I pray that means someday, as we all grow more aware of the questions we ask of ourselves and others, that we will as a society grow increasingly compassionate towards each other, so that hatred, oppression, and violence related to all kinds of gender issues comes to an end and relegated to history.
I wholeheartedly agree, mutatis mutandis as a trans woman myself. I would be happy to respectfully learn and discuss anyone’s take on sex and gender, so that hopefully we can all get a better sense of the truth of the whole business.
(Leaving sex out of it for the moment (Ha!), I’m currently thinking about gender through a butch/femme lens, just to see what comes out of it…)
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How does someone feel like they have no gender at all?
I'm not agender, but this comic by someone who does identify as agendered made sense to me.
How does someone feel like they have no gender at all?I'm not agender, but this comic by someone who does identify as agendered made sense to me.
I'm going to have to spend more time reading up on this. It's a very new concept to me and I'm intrigued. Thanks for the start for my journey.
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Ellen Page (Juno, Kitty Pryde/Shadowcat in the X-Men movies <- see, it's also geek related ;-) ) comes out as gay. She gives a great speech, embedded in the article, at Time to THRIVE, a conference to promote the welfare of LGBT youth.
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Ellen Page (Juno, Kitty Pryde/Shadowcat in the X-Men movies <- see, it's also geek related ;-) ) comes out as gay. She gives a great speech, embedded in the article, at Time to THRIVE, a conference to promote the welfare of LGBT youth.
Personally was not shocked by the announcement, but I was struck by the emotion, power and eloquence of it.
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How does someone feel like they have no gender at all?I'm not agender, but this comic by someone who does identify as agendered made sense to me.
fascinating.
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Edit to add: Bob, here's a description of the terms in the list over at The Washington Post.
Thanks KSF. I need to figure out where I fit in. I want to fit in somewhere. I just don't know where yet. The good news is that I know which ones I'm not! I just don't know which one(s) I am.
Ellen Page (Juno, Kitty Pryde/Shadowcat in the X-Men movies <- see, it's also geek related ;-) ) comes out as gay. She gives a great speech, embedded in the article, at Time to THRIVE, a conference to promote the welfare of LGBT youth.
My heart is broken...
I am not surprised, though.
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Part of me is hoping I do not get another embarrassingly large bouquet at work this year, but another part knows that if it happens I will smile all day...
So, I assumed that I dodged the public bouquet this year when no such delivery arrived at my office. I was wrong.
My boyfriend knew I was going today to a salon owned by a friend of ours. It was a big deal for me because I've just been getting cheap haircuts and had not been to a real salon in sometime. When I arrived, my friend took me to her salon station and there was a bouquet and a heart-shaped box of chocolates on the chair. I said to my friend, cluelessly, "Aww, are these yours?" To which she said, "No, they are yours." He had gone to the salon yesterday and left everything for me.
He is the best.
That's pretty awesome healer. Glad you had a good Valentine's Day yesterday!
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Missed this until today. Virginia's same-sex marriage ban has been struck down by a federal judge. The decision is currently stayed, pending an appeal.
Edit to add: And here's a map showing where things are at. Doesn't seem to list current lawsuits, though, unless they've received a ruling.
Edit to add: From Judge Arenda Wright Allen's opinion:
“Gay and lesbian individuals share the same capacity as heterosexual individuals to form, preserve and celebrate loving, intimate and lasting relationships,” Wright Allen wrote. “Such relationships are created through the exercise of sacred, personal choices — choices, like the choices made by every other citizen, that must be free from unwarranted government interference.”
And:
“Tradition is revered in the Commonwealth, and often rightly so. However, tradition alone cannot justify denying same-sex couples the right to marry any more than it could justify Virginia’s ban on interracial marriage.”
Part of me is hoping I do not get another embarrassingly large bouquet at work this year, but another part knows that if it happens I will smile all day...So, I assumed that I dodged the public bouquet this year when no such delivery arrived at my office. I was wrong.
My boyfriend knew I was going today to a salon owned by a friend of ours. It was a big deal for me because I've just been getting cheap haircuts and had not been to a real salon in sometime. When I arrived, my friend took me to her salon station and there was a bouquet and a heart-shaped box of chocolates on the chair. I said to my friend, cluelessly, "Aww, are these yours?" To which she said, "No, they are yours." He had gone to the salon yesterday and left everything for me.
He is the best.
AWRIGHT!!!
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Missed this until today. Virginia's same-sex marriage ban has been struck down by a federal judge. The decision is currently stayed, pending an appeal.
Edit to add: And here's a map showing where things are at. Doesn't seem to list current lawsuits, though, unless they've received a ruling.
I have no letter in the alphabet soup on this thread; I'm here to try to understand my fellow man.
I use 'man' in the sense of 'humanity' rather than defining gender; language changes more slowly than culture sometimes.
Being British I have what we like to think of as 'British virtues': a strong sense of fair play and rooting for the underdog. And yet I admire the sentiment of an American document with which you may be familiar:-
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
I haven't had any formal education on this, and at first glance it may seem that I must have minor quibbles with the text.
'All men' I take in the 'humanity' sense, and forgive the writer on the grounds that he didn't have the benefit of our modern perspective on gender issues.
Although I don't believe in any supernatural 'creator', I do believe that it is our responsibility to create the society we want, and we want those 'unalienable Rights' for all. This is what defines a 'good' society.
While I was growing up I was amazed that the country that had this as their defining statement ever had slavery. But it is unreasonable to expect perfection. It is simply our job as a society to move toward perfection. Even though we never expect to be perfect, the struggle toward it makes us better and better, and that is enough.
So despite any minor quibbles, the sentiment and purpose the we, as modern readers, take from it is as aspirational as any I have yet seen.
So with that, 'fair play' and 'rooting for the underdog' all in mind, it is 'self-evident' ('self' meaning 'me') that if anyone can get married, then everyone can get married.
Marriage itself has evolved. It used to be more like a property contract, the 'property' being the woman, of course. We, rightly, changed that to the equal partnership it is today, instead of abandoning it entirely.
We know that marriage has evolved, so the idea that it evolves even further to include same-sex marriage is not an anathema. The idea that 'marriage has always been like this' is provably untrue and indefensible.
I'm confident that these truths will become self-evident sooner rather than later. I just hope that as little harm is done during the process as possible.
Good luck guys.
Using 'guys' in the gender-neutral sense, of course. : )
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While I was growing up I was amazed that the country that had this as their defining statement ever had slavery. But it is unreasonable to expect perfection. It is simply our job as a society to move toward perfection. Even though we never expect to be perfect, the struggle toward it makes us better and better, and that is enough.
It was somewhat contentious, even in it's time but because of the problems of passing the Declaration of Independence which basically required not just a majority but a unilateral commitment from each of the colonial states. It was a statement of war against the King and the southern states wouldn't sign without the express promise of slavery not being outlawed. Much of the northern and midatlantic had already abolished slavery, though many slaves still existed in the north by good old boys looking the other way. One of the few constitutional clauses that couldn't be ammended was the requirement that no laws hindering slavery would be passed federally until sometime in the early 1800's.
I have faith that we'll come along the other side of this in the fullness of time. We are a very religious country and our religions have evolved but it is the nature of religion to evolve slowly and usually only once the youth see the light. Religion has been used against all civil rights progressions in the past and there is no reason to believe that this too shall pass... eventually. I'd like to see it sooner than later, really and it's coming about. But it will be awhile still, I think, and things will likely get pockets of worse before they get better. We'll see more stuff like what came out of Kansas this week; last desperate gasps before things change for the better.
Edit to add: Bob, here's a description of the terms in the list over at The Washington Post.Thanks KSF. I need to figure out where I fit in. I want to fit in somewhere. I just don't know where yet. The good news is that I know which ones I'm not! I just don't know which one(s) I am.
Bob, this gives a more detailed description of some of the terms.
Wow, there's an awful lot of stuff to read here. Who knew people could be complicated...
So I'm kinda hoping I could get an explanation of what it means to be transexual/transgendered, and I figure this is a good place to ask. So, and I mean this in the nicest, most politically-correct way possible, "What's up with that?" :)
Wow, there's an awful lot of stuff to read here. Who knew people could be complicated...
So I'm kinda hoping I could get an explanation of what it means to be transexual/transgendered, and I figure this is a good place to ask. So, and I mean this in the nicest, most politically-correct way possible, "What's up with that?" :)
In basic terms, transsexual means your internal sense of gender, your gender identity, doesn't match the physical configuration that your body was born with.
Edit to add: If you have the opportunity, the need, and the resources, it's possible to do something about the body side of the equation, to rectify things and get your body aligned with your internal sense of gender.
Transgender ("transgendered" as a term has fallen out of favor for a lot of people) is a larger umbrella term that includes transsexuals as well as people experiencing other forms of gender variance.
In basic terms, transsexual means your internal sense of gender, your gender identity, doesn't match the physical configuration that your body was born with.
I get that. I was hoping I could get an elaboration (without annoying anyone) on how one knows one is transsexual--and, at the risk of sounding homophobic, what it is "like" to be transsexual.
Thanks! :)
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In basic terms, transsexual means your internal sense of gender, your gender identity, doesn't match the physical configuration that your body was born with.I get that. I was hoping I could get an elaboration (without annoying anyone) on how one knows one is transsexual--and, at the risk of sounding homophobic, what it is "like" to be transsexual.
Thanks! :)
It is kind of hard to describe. I've heard a lot of bad descriptions from "You just know," to "I like to do housework and need to please a man."(No joke, I heard that once 9_9.) It is something deep inside you that is indescribably wrong and manifests in a lot of different ways. Sometimes little girly things get inside you, sometimes it's rage, sometimes it is an unknowable depression but it all comes back to something is wrong and I need to figure out what that is. And then once you figure it out you sometimes feel like you need to deny it or bide time or run away from everything. It is generally not something you bring words to at first but often it begins manifesting with the things you are denied so you keep them secret and hide them away from your siblings, friends, parents, the world. A few brave souls punch through that right away but the largest portion repress or hide or run. Usually at some point, something makes you confront yourself. Often it is looking in the mirror and seeing wrongness or watching yourself go through the wrong puberty or being denied the things that other girls your age get and not understanding why you aren't allowed. It is looking in the mirror and seeing everything you hate about yourself staring back at you. Sometimes judging you for what you know you can't continue to be.
And once you start transition all of that begins to change. You have hope. Your hormones seem to work for your brain instead of just making you depressed and withdrawn. Your depression lessens. You begin to feel like you belong, often even when you know that you don't quite yet. You can look in the mirror and see hope and correction and you find a wellspring of happiness even if things around you are crashing to the ground. And most of all, you find yourself, hopefully never hiding who you are again and that frees up a large portion of your brain from the stress of hiding your secret to the normal stresses of everyday life. Sometimes, we continue to hide the secret of who we used to be or we just don't bring it up but that has tolls that are hard to pay some days but still much easier than denying who you are. It means no longer fearing who you may be even when you kind of fear what others would think about you if they knew your past or how they would treat you differently if they knew. It is being in a world you no longer fit in and finding the way that you can fit in it again.
Ultimately, it's very hard to describe and it's a little different for everyone. I couldn't pin it down to one shared experience but I guess you could say, think about how you know that you are the right gender and just think of the opposite. ;)
I'm glad I'm not the only one that asks these questions :P
KC, if you go a couple pages back, I asked Crystal similar questions. Her answers are also insightful.
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More GOOD trans representation in the media. I was just talking to a friend yesterday about it. She was upset because of the backlash Joss Whedon got for his inadvertently transphobic joke on Twitter and how it was unfair that people didn't take it as a joke.
I told her that that's all trans people are is A) the butt of the joke (Haha! She's actually a dude!) B) the victim (CSI etc) or C) violent mentally disturbed criminals (Silence of the Lambs)
To be made the butt of the joke by someone we considered an ally was exceptionally painful, and his "It was a joke, and if you didn't like it you can leave" response made it moreso.
I've gotta say, as a rather politically incorrect person who will rarely shut up about how harmless most jokes are, the one brand of un-PC humor that I can't really tolerate is the transsexual stuff. I think there are some topics our culture just doesn't understand well enough to laugh about yet.
Anyways, thanks, Lissa and Kryzbyn, that information was really insightful. I think it was what I was looking for, anyways. It's looking like transsexuality is a bit of a "If you have to ask, you probably aren't" shebang.
Bob, this gives a more detailed description of some of the terms.Edit to add: Bob, here's a description of the terms in the list over at The Washington Post.Thanks KSF. I need to figure out where I fit in. I want to fit in somewhere. I just don't know where yet. The good news is that I know which ones I'm not! I just don't know which one(s) I am.
Thanks! I'm going to read it as soon as I get home tomorrow night.
Qunnessaa, I just want to say I've been reading your very insightful replies and thank you for them. I've nothing coherent to reply with at the moment but know that I am not ignoring you. :)
In basic terms, transsexual means your internal sense of gender, your gender identity, doesn't match the physical configuration that your body was born with.I get that. I was hoping I could get an elaboration (without annoying anyone) on how one knows one is transsexual--and, at the risk of sounding homophobic, what it is "like" to be transsexual.
Thanks! :)
Sorry about that, KC.
Lissa pretty much nailed it.
Edit to add: Tanith's post, above, is also worth a read.
That makes sense. What is the difference between Bigender and Bisexual? How does someone feel like they have no gender at all? What's the difference between agender and neither?Gender and sexuality have jack and squat to do with one another. Two completely different ballparks. For that matter, gender and physical/external/apparent sex characteristics can have jack and squat to do with one another, since it is quite possible for your neural architecture (essentially your brain biology) not to match your outward physical gender, as two different hormonal cascades are responsible and it is entirely possible for either to be interrupted or absent.
On not being gendered, that comic over here: http://chaoslife.findchaos.com/agender-agenda about describes it for me. I absolutely do not identify as or feel female, but I'm not all that sure how strongly I identify with being male, either. Slightly more so, enough that I identify on the FtM spectrum, but not so much that I feel anything would actually be made better by transitioning. Mostly the entire gender thing is a complete non sequiteur to me, and absolutely none of it works for me or fits very well.
What does it feel like not to have a gender? Fine, thanks. I'm good how I am. This is my normal and I am okay with it. However, almost everyone else I have to deal with seems extremely weird to me. It is perpetually annoying how society seems completely obsessed with all this bizarre social role stuff that hinges on whether someone has an innie or an outie. All of that is just bizarre and irrational to me, so I only voluntarily socialize with people who are similarly genderqueer or who are okay with never rigidly gendering me in ways that weird me the hell out and make me think less of them.
I hope my questions weren't offensive. I had never heard of some of those terms and it's a foreign concept to me. I only ask to understand. You gave me some insight. I'm going to spend more time when I can reading up on all of these. I know that I will feel the same as everyone else but I do seek to understand so that I can treat people the way they want to be treated.
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Here is a lovely couple who are comfortable and out. McCloskey
Making huge strides in society. I love it.
Had not realized that Jennifer Finney Boylan is an advisor on Jill Soloway's new Amazon.com show, Transparent. Her involvement seems like a good sign.
After serving as consigliere to the writers creating “Transparent,” I can affirm that their desire to create a show that is respectful and representative of trans experience is genuine. They asked me lots of difficult questions, and I tried to answer.
She does discuss the casting issue in there.
Edit to add: Here's the pilot. I'll have to watch it when I have some free time.
Edit to add: And this quote from Soloway seems like a good sign.
We've obviously been talking to a fair number of people to make sure we get all different kinds of representation right, not only of Moira's characters but of the other trans characters that we hope to have in the season if we get ordered. And the amount of misinformation that's out there about just what it means to be trans... There are so many different kinds of people in the -- What do we call it? -- the transiverse? The transverse? It's just so complex and so interesting and there's just so much that so many people don't really understand. Even with the character of Moira, this trans woman -- Medically transitioning? Socially transitioning? Cross-dressing? Drag? I've watched people talking on the Internet about "Jeffrey Tambor in drag." Drag has nothing to do with this and people don't even know. People have so little information about the different ways that gender works, particularly in connection with sexuality. It has nothing to do with whether or not you're gay or straight or who you are attracted to. I think we're at the very, very, very beginning. I think we're gonna look back at this moment 20 years from now and say, "Oh, remember when people had to only be male or female?"
And this:
Well, I'm happy to be as careful as need be for the trans community and be 100 percent informed by their perceptions of what is right and what is wrong. I think that's just a starting place. I think sure, people who have gender privilege -- or what's called "Cis privilege" -- that's a privilege to be able to say, "Oh, I'm so confused about my pronouns. I don't know what to call you!" That's privilege and to be confused is annoying to people who are dealing with something real like transitioning their gender. I'm happy to try and be less annoying. That's good.
What's the reason for the asterisk after "trans"? I keep reflexively looking to the bottom of the post and being annoyed there's no footnote! XD
I have not read the preceding posts, due to being quite busy in life at the moment. Sadly, I have to deal with more immediate concerns at the moment.
However, I don't remember seeing this mentioned earlier, and I apologize if it was. But, a Kansas bill is effectively trying to sneak through segregation legislation that would allow for businesses and employees at all level, from government on down, to deny people service simply because of their sexual orientation. All they have to do is claim religious beliefs, and even if they're a government employee they can deny service.
So, it seems a new tactic is being tried... specifically, attempting to pit freedom of religion from the First Amendment against people's sexual orientation. And it definitely would not take much to expand this to trans people and those who are bi.
When will people learn that freedom of religion doesn't overwrite basic human rights?
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Probably when God directly tells them so.
I have not read the preceding posts, due to being quite busy in life at the moment. Sadly, I have to deal with more immediate concerns at the moment.
However, I don't remember seeing this mentioned earlier, and I apologize if it was. But, a Kansas bill is effectively trying to sneak through segregation legislation that would allow for businesses and employees at all level, from government on down, to deny people service simply because of their sexual orientation. All they have to do is claim religious beliefs, and even if they're a government employee they can deny service.
So, it seems a new tactic is being tried... specifically, attempting to pit freedom of religion from the First Amendment against people's sexual orientation. And it definitely would not take much to expand this to trans people and those who are bi.
That's already been stopped. By the Republicans in the Kansas Senate, apparently.
Thank god.
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That's already been stopped. By the Republicans in the Kansas Senate, apparently.I have not read the preceding posts, due to being quite busy in life at the moment. Sadly, I have to deal with more immediate concerns at the moment.
However, I don't remember seeing this mentioned earlier, and I apologize if it was. But, a Kansas bill is effectively trying to sneak through segregation legislation that would allow for businesses and employees at all level, from government on down, to deny people service simply because of their sexual orientation. All they have to do is claim religious beliefs, and even if they're a government employee they can deny service.
So, it seems a new tactic is being tried... specifically, attempting to pit freedom of religion from the First Amendment against people's sexual orientation. And it definitely would not take much to expand this to trans people and those who are bi.
Thank goodness it's been stopped.
I have to wonder... if there were such a law where I was... since discriminating against LGBT persons is against my religion, could I sue someone firing me for religious reasons as a violation of MY freedom of religion?
That's the thing that drives me crazy. The people who say it's "religious freedom" that should drive anti LGBT laws conveniently ignore all the religious groups that support LGBT rights, perform same sex marriages, etc. (and there are increasing numbers of those). They never seem to fight for OUR religious rights along with their own.
And of course what individuals practice privately should not affect a public organization's or government's hiring policy. (There are fortunately and unfortunately grey areas with religious organizations.)
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That's the thing that drives me crazy. The people who say it's "religious freedom" that should drive anti LGBT laws conveniently ignore all the religious groups that support LGBT rights, perform same sex marriages, etc. (and there are increasing numbers of those). They never seem to fight for OUR religious rights along with their own.
Y'know, I'm an atheist, but it really bugs me when anti-LGBT people attempt to co-opt all of religion, or all of Christianity to their cause. A lot of the people in my life who are supportive of me have religious beliefs of one degree or another, and have been supportive of LGB folk as well.
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That's the thing that drives me crazy. The people who say it's "religious freedom" that should drive anti LGBT laws conveniently ignore all the religious groups that support LGBT rights, perform same sex marriages, etc. (and there are increasing numbers of those). They never seem to fight for OUR religious rights along with their own.Y'know, I'm an atheist, but it really bugs me when anti-LGBT people attempt to co-opt all of religion, or all of Christianity to their cause. A lot of the people in my life who are supportive of me have religious beliefs of one degree or another, and have been supportive of LGB folk as well.
It bugs me too!
It also hurts our outreach too. Because some groups claim to essentially represent all of Christianity or religion, people unfamiliar or unwilling to be familiar with religious ALSO tends to lump us in one basket. Which just shuts down communication on all sides.
It doesn't help that for some reason media coverage tends to be of the anti-LGBT groups and seldom of the other side. I don't know if it's because they draw more controversy, they have more money, they write better press releases, or any or all of the above. There are also ostensibly more of them perhaps... but it seems like increasingly a) there are more and more pro-LGBT religions, and b) even in religious communities whose formal doctrine has anti-LGBT elements, many individual members and clergy alike are pushing for change in those areas. I think the first time I remembered them getting widely acknowledged was when the Pope said "Who am I to judge?" -- and that's huge. But that's the crest of a wave that's been rolling for a good long time and continues to move forward.