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The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.


Gamer Talk

201 to 250 of 5,673 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

Coridan wrote:
and even after we get full recognition in every nation ...

, Some jerk will hate you because you have blue eyes, and the fight starts again.

The road goes on forever and the party never ends.


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Coridan, thank you for your heartfelt post.


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DM Aron Marczylo wrote:

I enjoyed reading this and it was a lot of fun to read. The backstory you've mentioned about yourself puts things in perspective and I have ot admit, I agree about gamers being really smart as I too am reletively new to the community...well actuallly possibly a year or two, but I still consider myself new as I never grew up with D&D (unless you consider the TV show) or any other gaming system.

Sometimes I find they're too smart for they're own good as they can come up with multiple ways to beat encounters or solve problems which can be frustraiting but in a fun way. I enjoy seeing my player's brainstorm over every little thing and come up with a million and one solutions to something that I could only see 5 in :p

I'm glad you've enjoyed it. Yep, gamers are cool and, say whatever else you want about them, clever and entertaining.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Coridan, thank you for your heartfelt post.

You know, DeathQuaker, I have read alot of your posts in a lot of threads and it's funny how people seem to react to you sometimes; Like you're just a person with a giant chip on their shoulder for no apparent reason and are just being, I dunno, bitter or something. What's funny about it though is I've never heard you make an argument for how you feel that wasn't cogent and completely understandable(at least to me) and then you go and say things like this that are flat out supportive without qualifiers. I like you.


DQ rules, DBW.

(PS: I like you, too, but was ninja'd by DBW.)


Alitan wrote:

DQ rules, DBW.

(PS: I like you, too, but was ninja'd by DBW.)

Hehe, agreed.

Qadira

I see seuality as just another way people tend to define themselves by differences from what is seen as the norm. We tend to think of ourselves as what makes us stand out even if our core being is closer to pure vanilla normal.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Andrew R wrote:
I see seuality as just another way people tend to define themselves by differences from what is seen as the norm. We tend to think of ourselves as what makes us stand out even if our core being is closer to pure vanilla normal.

I wouldn't define my core being as the things I have in common with other people. There's no me-ness there, just us-ness. I am contained in the plural, but the plural is not me in the same way a giraffe and I are both mammals but the giraffe is not me.


Australian Government wrote:


Inquiry into the Marriage Equality Amendment Bill 2012 and the Marriage Amendment Bill 2012

The law should be changed to legalise same sex marriages in Australia

Agree 177 663
Disagree 98 164
Unsure 610

Total 276 437

Marriage Equality Amendment Bill 2012 (Mr Bandt)

Agree 64.0%
Disagree 36.0%

Marriage Amendment Bill 2012 (Mr Jones)

Agree 60.5%
Disagree 39.5%

Almost over now... pretty good support for same sex marriage in this country, guess we are pretty accepting people.


You know I was thinking about the rant I unleashed here the other day and I realized something. People brought up a lot of good points in response to that but you know what the perfect argument against it would have been that would have just b!cth slapped me down and put me in my place?

Coming at me like this: “Having read your rant perhaps I can point some things out to you, but first some clarifications: One: You’ve stated in this thread that one of you’re primary life goals is to try and make things in the world better, correct? Ok. Two, combining your stories with some of the things you say and doing just a basic level bit of reading between the lines one of your central conflicts has been sublimating your naturally d!ckish disposition to become a nicer guy, correct? Ok.”

“You seem to believe that there is a systemic abuse of women by men and that men need to wake up and change their treatment of women but let’s throw that out for the sake of this conversation and instead look at your approach to the subject. First of all, the average person responds badly to criticism that has even a hint of scorn buried in it, even less if it is simply directed at a group that they belong to and involves veiwpoints and actions they may not even have ever been guilty of. Perhaps you could have done some good sans the final message to men to "open your #$%ing ears”, because that is truly the point were you lost the argument’s value. While you may firmly believe your message there is a good chance that the only men who accepted it at face value were the ones who already know what you are talking about, and that anyone that may have benefited by internalizing your message will not do so because they feel assaulted. Asking the question: “Has this rant done anything to make the world a better place?” I would have to answer with a resounding No.”

“Second point. Seeing as you’re other goal is to become a nicer guy how does this rant fit with that? You’re desire seems to be on some level to protect women and correct inequities between the genders by appealing to the group you belong to. Noble? Perhaps, though I would venture that it is just as sexist as it is positive, but there is a greater issue here. Preaching is =/= to telling people how to live their lives when you have no idea what their personal situation is. Forcing a viewpoint on someone is something d!cks do. Nice guys will only ever respond to direct issues as they occur not launch preemptive, judgmental, moves. Add on top of that the fact that the person who has done the most to disrupt the good vibes of this thread is you, the guy who started it, and you are glowing with d!ckish radiation poisoning.”

“Combine these two points together and your rant was 100% EPIC FAIL. Now put on your dunce hat and go sit in the corner to think about what you did b!cth.”

Dogbladewarrior: “Yes, sir…I’m sorry.” -Sheds a tear of shame and goes to the corner-


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Dogbladewarrior, having read your rant even though I'm not male (I don't follow directions well, ask anyone who knows me. Also, I'm contrary.) and now your counter-rant, there's one thing I have to say that I don't think you've really considered.

It's okay to not be the bad guy. No, really. Have you been in the past? Okay, well, change that behavior and let the past go. (Easiest thing to say, hardest thing to do.) Women aren't automatically victims and men aren't automatically villains and reducing either gender in that way is bad for both. Now please stop calling yourself names. It isn't helping. :)


lynora wrote:

Dogbladewarrior, having read your rant even though I'm not male (I don't follow directions well, ask anyone who knows me. Also, I'm contrary.) and now your counter-rant, there's one thing I have to say that I don't think you've really considered.

It's okay to not be the bad guy. No, really. Have you been in the past? Okay, well, change that behavior and let the past go. (Easiest thing to say, hardest thing to do.) Women aren't automatically victims and men aren't automatically villains and reducing either gender in that way is bad for both. Now please stop calling yourself names. It isn't helping. :)

Ninjaed by lynora!


Alitan wrote:

DQ rules, DBW.

(PS: I like you, too, but was ninja'd by DBW.)

I like tmdq because we can agree to disagree on sensitive issues. That said, it's a bit suspicious as to how those daleks just showed up at my house a few days ago...


lynora wrote:

Dogbladewarrior, having read your rant even though I'm not male (I don't follow directions well, ask anyone who knows me. Also, I'm contrary.) and now your counter-rant, there's one thing I have to say that I don't think you've really considered.

It's okay to not be the bad guy. No, really. Have you been in the past? Okay, well, change that behavior and let the past go. (Easiest thing to say, hardest thing to do.) Women aren't automatically victims and men aren't automatically villains and reducing either gender in that way is bad for both. Now please stop calling yourself names. It isn't helping. :)

Thank you. I read once that one of the biggest mental growth spurts a person goes through after their first few years of life is age 20-30. This is apparently some of your most defining years of growing mentally into the person you become as an adult. I remember noting that one of the biggest changes that happens in this time is the loss of the strict black and white thinking that defines you as a child. I’m often purposely unclear about how old I am when I meet people because I find people take me more seriously if they think I’m older but truthfully I am far closer to being a teenager than reaching the middle of my decade. Perhaps, no matter how hard I’m trying, I should make an effort to slow my roll and just let time and life experience smooth out my rough edges and not be so critical.


Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Alitan wrote:

DQ rules, DBW.

(PS: I like you, too, but was ninja'd by DBW.)

Hehe, agreed.

Y'all are makin' me blush.

But thank you for the kind words. :)


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lynora wrote:

Dogbladewarrior, having read your rant even though I'm not male (I don't follow directions well, ask anyone who knows me. Also, I'm contrary.) and now your counter-rant, there's one thing I have to say that I don't think you've really considered.

It's okay to not be the bad guy. No, really. Have you been in the past? Okay, well, change that behavior and let the past go. (Easiest thing to say, hardest thing to do.) Women aren't automatically victims and men aren't automatically villains and reducing either gender in that way is bad for both. Now please stop calling yourself names. It isn't helping. :)

Nicely said.

I'd also add that generally speaking, people take things very personally that often weren't meant to be, and this is doubly true when discussing gender and gender politics.

I can say, for example, "some girls say mean things to each other in the locker room after gym class" and someone else will say, "I'VE NEVER SAID MEAN THINGS IN THE LOCKER ROOM!" like I was accusing them personally of something, and another person will say "WHAT DO YOU MEAN MEN NEVER TAKE GYM CLASS! I TAKE GYM CLASS ALL THE TIME!" and the conversation will explode with outrage, some over the intent of the message misunderstood, some even over things that were never even said or even implied.

So even when a person says something with good intentions on gender issues--no matter how eloquent or ham handedly expressed--it's very easy for it to go haywire, for people to walk away with an entirely different message than was intended and with hurt feelings to boot.

But at the same time, if such issues are never discussed, there can never be hope for understanding and better communication. It's like crossing a minefield that has a pot of gold on the other side.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Alitan wrote:

DQ rules, DBW.

(PS: I like you, too, but was ninja'd by DBW.)

Hehe, agreed.

Y'all are makin' me blush.

But thank you for the kind words. :)

=)


In the end, though my approach to the subject might have been bad and seemed too simplistic perhaps to ever be taken as accurate I do want to say that I truly feel there is indeed something to what I’m saying, immature and black and white as it may perhaps appear. I’m not having a strong reaction to simply a theoretical construct of gender relations I’ve invented in my spare time but to countless personal experiences and piles of anecdotal observations that seem to be stacking up all around my personal life. I launched that rant because things seem to be almost building to “critical mass” in how heavily this happening around me and I’m finally just having a response of “Ok I feel I need to say something, because this is getting #$$%ing ridiculous.”

I’ve often heard men say that the one type of woman they just cannot stand is the “violent feminist” The type of woman that seems to ‘hate’ men and jumps down their throats at every perceived slight. What’s funny about this is quite often what these women seem to be responding to is based more the tone of what is being said, not necessarily the literal words, something subtle that I too seem more aware of than the average person and is incredibly important. I think that there is an argument that could be made that the “violent feminists” are, of all women in this world, the ones who are responding most appropriately to what is actually happening around them because they are not giving a free pass to issues that really, really should not be simply swept under the rug.

I have absolutely no interest in ‘gender wars’ or any type of persecution on any side but there is something happening here and it is fairly widespread. Maybe I am not the person to talk about it because I cannot articulate it well but man is it bothering me.


Oh, actually you know what? There is a part of my experience that is also almost universal and important to the discussion that I just realized I haven’t mentioned. When I have the sexism conversation in real life with individual guys they often resist it heavily at first, as I mentioned, but once I have fully explained what I think their individual mistakes are and they realize I am right they often have a reaction of feeling totally crushed for a bit before making the decision to try better. Malicious people won’t care what they do to others, the vast majority of men I have talked to do. When I say I feel like many men are making mistakes in their treatment of women I’m not even claiming they are doing it on purpose, far from it. This is actually what was behind my comment last page when I said the thing that was torturing me now is that the problem isn’t that people are not trying the problem is that empathizing correctly is actually really hard. (Which I now realize without a reference point that comment may have seemed apropos of nothing)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dogbladewarrior wrote:


I’ve often heard men say that the one type of woman they just cannot stand is the “violent feminist” The type of woman that seems to ‘hate’ men and jumps down their throats at every perceived slight. What’s funny about this is quite often what these women seem to be responding to is based more the tone of what is being said, not necessarily the literal words, something subtle that I too seem more aware of than the average person and is incredibly important. I think that there is an argument that could be made that the “violent feminists” are, of all women in this world, the ones who are responding most appropriately to what is actually happening around them because they are not giving a free pass to issues that really, really should not be simply swept under the rug.

I think you've hit on one of the more prevalent defense mechanisms that people enjoying, consciously or not, the benefits of being the majoritarian display. They place the burden of judgment on the person aggrieved, shifting the discussion from whether something wrong was said or done to whether or not one should have spoken out. It sounds sort of sophisticated, but if you take it apart it turns into one of those "damn you for hurting my fist with your face" complaints.

I've observed it in many conversations about women, gays, people of non-majority religions and no religions, people of non-majority races and ethnicities, and so forth. It seems to represent a stage where the speaker is aware that he or she can no longer openly and gleefully endorse an inequitable state of affairs, but still prefers that state of affairs and so needs a layer of deniability. Therefore the greatest sin becomes calling someone a racist, a homophobe, a misogynist. The labels are now the bad things, not the behaviors they represent.

Some people will realize their doing this and try to clean up their act when it's pointed out to them. We all inherit a lot of cultural baggage, myself included. I had a few things to say about "violent feminists" in my teen years before I realized I was wrapping myself in penis privilege.


Shifty wrote:

I long for the day when sexuality becomes a non-subject.

"Now hold still, you might feel a little pinch, but soon sex will no longer be an issue for you."


In response to Samnell:

That actually makes a lot of sense. It does seem that as human beings the way we relate to the world is through a series of assumptions built upon other assumptions that lead to complicated biases that can cause all sorts of trouble. While any given one of these unconscious points of view may be mostly innocuous in and of themselves they can cause great damage if brought up at the wrong time and in the wrong light. The only way to correct these errors in judgment is to pay close attention to what is happening both around you and within you and to attempt to pull apart the engine of your brain to spot the inner workings and make sure it is functioning in the way you really want it to. Speaking from personal experience this is a complicated, sometimes embarrassing, and often emotionally painful process so I really can’t hold it against other people if they don’t want to put great effort into it, especially if they don’t hold the same ambitions for their life I do.


I know I said I would move on from this subject earlier but then I realized that this issue actually fits pretty well with some of my intentions for the thread.

Dogbladewarrior wrote:

I thought it would be cool to create a thread where members of the LGBT community who are also gamers could come and share their life stories, experiences as gamers, and struggles (whether in dealing with their sexuality in relation to our society or not).

I am Bi-Sexual. This topic is a major struggle for me right now. It involves gender issues that are in many ways very similar to the issues LGBT people face.

There is no need for this conversation to dominate the thread however. Please, I invite you to continue sharing your own stories, fun or difficult as they may be.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dogbladewarrior wrote:

In response to Samnell:

That actually makes a lot of sense. It does seem that as human beings the way we relate to the world is through a series of assumptions built upon other assumptions that lead to complicated biases that can cause all sorts of trouble. While any given one of these unconscious points of view may be mostly innocuous in and of themselves they can cause great damage if brought up at the wrong time and in the wrong light. The only way to correct these errors in judgment is to pay close attention to what is happening both around you and within you and to attempt to pull apart the engine of your brain to spot the inner workings and make sure it is functioning in the way you really want it to. Speaking from personal experience this is a complicated, sometimes embarrassing, and often emotionally painful process so I really can’t hold it against other people if they don’t want to put great effort into it, especially if they don’t hold the same ambitions for their life I do.

Yup.

Something that I know that is a huge flaw of my own is that I automatically assume that every white person automatically assumes that I'm the worst possible stereotype of my race. As such I in response very leery and a little cold toward of white people who are not already in my life and who are not already friends and associates, based on my own assumptions of their assumptions. It's idiotic and unfair. However, I personally stopped caring about maintaining any sort of moral high ground and being fair over years and years of pretty consistent racist/ignorant behavior and opinions of people that I've either met personally or over the internet in forums and otherwise.

Again, is it wrong, yes. But is it a defense mechanism that works for me? Absolutely. The angry feminist is an archetype I cant stand either, but I understand it whole heartedly and on some levels absolutely respect it.

If you put a lot of thought into how we treat each other as human beings, and Im not even talking about HUGE conflicts, just small scale interactions it's pretty appalling. It comes down to simple lack of respect and empathy. If my friend tells me that the using p*ss* as a derogative term is offensive to her I dont use it around her. Hell, I may stop using the word altogether. But the thing that people tend to do is turn around and say something like "I HAVE FREE SPEECH! I CAN SAY WHATEVER I WANT! GROW A BACKBONE! YOURE TOO SENSITIVE!!"

No one is saying that you should stop saying it. But if I keep using that word around my friend I expect that there'll be consequences. From a cold shoulder to her not speaking to me anymore. Is my NEED to offend her worth my friendship with her? NO. So I'll chill with using that word around her. To many people these days lack that simple common element of empathy and courtesy.

Over the past 5 years or so I've had to call out a good number of people I know who throw around f*gg*t and gay as bad words. When they look at me like "What? I didn't mean anything by it." I say replace f*gg*t with N!$*$+ and gay with SPOOK. Then look at me in the face and tell me that it STILL means nothing. That usually shuts them down and if it doesn't I usually dont deal with them anymore. It's that simple for me.

I have one Gay male friend (that I know of) and two lesbians in my life who I'm pretty close to. One of them is an ex-girlfriend who came back into my life years after we stopped seeing each other. She and her wife are great people and I love her dearly. So for me having them in my life prompts me to speak up in a way that I probably would not have year ago. I mean I would have spoken up anyway but not with the fire that I do now. Thing is I've had white friends of mine come back and tell me that mutual acquaintances were saying unkind things about people of color and using n###*~ to refer to me and other friends of ours. ANd I've had this happen more than once. So while I was thankful for being given the heads up I wonder if anyone would speak up for me and mine in the same way. It doesn't matter because ultimately we're only responsible for ourselves and our own actions.


I will agree that being bisexual is challenging because you don't fit neatly into any of the boxes. And sorting out gender roles can become pretty confusing even without adding that in. I think for me getting to a point where I could say that no, I'm not confused, I just don't fit any of these boxes and that's okay, that was really hard.
This is all made a little more complicated by the fact that my darling parents decided to use me as an experiment in gender roles. Oh, I wish I were kidding. Basically they decided that the most 'feminist' thing they could do for me was to raise me as if I were a boy. I mean, I had dresses and stuff, but I was given boy's toys and often boy's clothes and was pretty much given all the social expectations of a boy. But my sisters were pretty much treated like girls all along. It doesn't get a whole lot more confusing than that. I'm happy being a girl and I've never wanted to be male, but sometimes I get tripped up on social expectations.


ShinHakkaider, I just want to say thank you for that insight into the angry defense mechanism. Really. For me at least that provided a lot of insight into the behavior of some of the people around me and I hope will help me treat them with a little less frustration and a little more compassion.


ShinHakkaiders story is similar to mine. Maybe it would be the same had I stayed in Pennsylvania.


In response to Shinhakkaider’s experience:

Ok I would like to preface this with two facts:

1. This is another rant and like the last one may just piss off everyone and their mother. Oh well, I guess that is just who I am, a guy who says unpleasant things. It’s the internet and I am learning that literally 90% of what I am saying is getting lost in translation anyway, judging from some people’s responses to me, so, whatever, I’ll just be as respectful as I can while sharing what I can.

2. This is a perspective about white/black relations from the point of view of a guy who is so white he makes the pure driven winter snow look like the result of a BP drilling disaster in comparison, so take what you will from it.

The four ways white people approach black people.:

Here they are; the first three are mind boggling bad while the fourth is actually pretty good, at least in my opinion

One: Wary. White people whom haven’t had extensive interactions with black people often act this way. When talking to a black person, no matter whom they might be or what the situation is there is a tightness around their eyes and their shoulders are up. The primary concern on their mind is to not come off racist and to prove that “They have no problem with black people.” But you know what black people are experiencing when they see you act this way and hear you speak hesitantly. You look like seeing them is like getting a glimpse at a tiger in the wild and when you talk you sound like your trying to edit out the potential for letting the N word slip out between your lips. Thanks a lot, you are making me feel real welcome here and also just how often do you use racial slurs in everyday life anyway that you have to watch what you are saying so closely right now?

Two: Confrontational. This one is just bad. Most often associated with white people with some level of authority, from police offices to neighborhood watch members to business owners. These whites approach black people who are clearly just minding their own business with an attitude of “What kind of trouble are you causing N#$$er?” Then when the black person gets offended and wonders aloud what exactly the white person thinks they are doing the white person either gets more suspicious or acts confused, like YOU”RE the one being an @$$hole and everything just goes downhill from there.

Three. Over-Familiar. It always happens at somepoint, I apologize for my race black people, it’s just that you guys are so cool. The white person you are talking to starts “acting black” attempting to mimic your turns of phrase, body language, and attitude. While imitation is the sincerest form of flattery this more akin to a sarcastic clown mocking you. Less endearing and more asking for a fist in the pasty face. While this isn’t usually a problem with more long term friends it is always startling when the white guy you’ve been friends with for five years one day becomes comfortable enough to jokingly call you a “N#$%^er.” straight to your face and then doesn’t have the decency to notice your startled and offended reaction.

Four. We are just people. This actually does occasionally happen, neatly enough, a white person approaches a black person and is just completely comfortable and, while they do nothing to deny any differences you might have, they treat you like ZOMG a person with thoughts and feelings. Very good, +1,000 points to this.

People might wonder why I only seem to be pointing things out from one side of the story in my rants when there is always more to the story so let me tell you. I am a MAN, I am WHITE. I belong to several other commonly recognizable social groups. It’s not that I’ve never found holes in other social group’s common behaviors, I can and I do and I approach individuals about it all the time. When talking to a group however and I encounter the whole “Who are you, to speak to us this way?” I can say. “Me? I am one of you!”

Shadow Lodge

lynora wrote:
I will agree that being bisexual is challenging because you don't fit neatly into any of the boxes.

Screw the boxes! Seriously, it makes it sound like I'm filling out a sexuality form.

"Are you Male [] or Female []?"

"Do you like you like baking and shopping? Yes [] No []"

I probably wouldn't be able to fill in half of such a ridiculous form.


The thing to realize is that no one person's existence can ever be encompassed by a box or even a set of boxes, but while individuality always trumps definitions we as a species have added boxes into every society we have ever created. Use the boxes for support or try to destroy them the one thing you'll always have to deal with is, like it or not, they are real because we have made them.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dogbladewarrior wrote:

In response to Shinhakkaider’s experience:

** spoiler omitted **...

See I'm kind of okay with 3. even though some people do find that offensive. I know it's just a person trying to relate and there's no offense meant by it. In certain circumstances I have to "code switch" when I'm in certain company. The way I talk to and relate to one group of people I'm familiar with is different from when I have to talk to an relate to people say at work. It's not that different.

But in social situations I dont get all lispy and start talking like Richard Simmons or Paul Lynd when I'm talking to a gay male. I STAY ME. I'm not going to try and be something that I'm obviously not.

As for the first two yeah, they really suck. Especially when having to deal with law enforcement. It's one thing that people who are on the outside of it REALLY dont understand. We understand that there's a high rate of crime in the AA community. I get that. What people dont understand is that for a fair amount of Law Enforcement people they feel that that gives them the right to treat every AA that they come across like a criminal. Whether they are or not. it's why it's so easy for the average white person to believe that when an unarmed AA is killed by the police or some trigger happy civilian that some how THEY DESERVED IT.

That's what bothers me. It's not only the attitude of the cops but of the general populace. I know plenty of AA males who have no desire to be criminals or go to jail. They just want to work their jobs and go home to their families and enjoy their lives. Unfortunately public perception of who we are a human beings is very different and very negative. If we're not PERFECT citizens then we're criminals. There usually is no in between there.

I think that the LGBT community has it's own bunch of negative stereotypes to deal with but honestly on some level I think the general public is more accepting of them on some levels than they are of AA's. I think that acceptance has do with the fact that your brother, your sister, your mom, your cousin or your dad, anyone in your immediate family or social circle can be gay. But if you're white how many of your family members are black? typically? It's more the exception rather than the rule yes? I think the possible proximity of a gay friend or relative on some level humanizes gay and lesbian issues in a way that they never will regarding race.

So, and I'm not discounting anyones hard times or struggles, but from where I'm sitting (and there always will be people who cant let go of their hate and ignorance towards gays) I think that the struggle for equality by the LGBT community will be a shorter one than the one for AA Civil RIghts. Which in many ways is STILL going on.


Heh. I've dealt with approaches 1-4 in my life, and while the first three used to bother me, nowadays they just make me laugh.. I've certainly been immature in the past and did the "boo!" thing in the past to people who use the first two approaches, but I realized that made me look more foolish than they were acting. I would rather take my custom elsewhere, perhaps with a flip of the bird if things got ugly, than deal with an idiot. I've got better things to do. That said, if things for violent, I have no problem defending myself. Better to be judged by 12 and all that.


Firm agreement with most, though not all of this.

ShinHakkaider wrote:
Dogbladewarrior wrote:

In response to Shinhakkaider’s experience:

** spoiler omitted **...

See I'm kind of okay with 3. even though some people do find that offensive. I know it's just a person trying to relate and there's no offense meant by it. In certain circumstances I have to "code switch" when I'm in certain company. The way I talk to and relate to one group of people I'm familiar with is different from when I have to talk to an relate to people say at work. It's not that different.

But in social situations I dont get all lispy and start talking like Richard Simmons or Paul Lynd when I'm talking to a gay male. I STAY ME. I'm not going to try and be something that I'm obviously not.

As for the first two yeah, they really suck. Especially when having to deal with law enforcement. It's one thing that people who are on the outside of it REALLY dont understand. We understand that there's a high rate of crime in the AA community. I get that. What people dont understand is that for a fair amount of Law Enforcement people they feel that that gives them the right to treat every AA that they come across like a criminal. Whether they are or not. it's why it's so easy for the average white person to believe that when an unarmed AA is killed by the police or some trigger happy civilian that some how THEY DESERVED IT.

That's what bothers me. It's not only the attitude of the cops but of the general populace. I know plenty of AA males who have no desire to be criminals or go to jail. They just want to work their jobs and go home to their families and enjoy their lives. Unfortunately public perception of who we are a human beings is very different and very negative. If we're not PERFECT citizens then we're criminals. There usually is no in between there.

I think that the LGBT community has it's own bunch of negative stereotypes to deal with but honestly on some level I think the general public is more accepting of them on some levels than they are of AA's. I think that acceptance has do...


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ShinHakkaider wrote:


I think that the LGBT community has it's own bunch of negative stereotypes to deal with but honestly on some level I think the general public is more accepting of them on some levels than they are of AA's. I think that acceptance has do with the fact that your brother, your sister, your mom, your cousin or your dad, anyone in your immediate family or social circle can be gay. But if you're white how many of your family members are black? typically? It's more the exception rather than the rule yes? I think the possible proximity of a gay friend or relative on some level humanizes gay and lesbian issues in a way that they never will regarding race.

I think it's more to the point that anyone from any economic background might be TLGBQ, and thus certain specific associations are avoided.

Where I come from, the worst treatment of blacks and other persons of color is particularly toward the poor--and the urban poor at that. (Not that there is no poor treatment of others in other economic backgrounds). Race and poverty are often tied together, and in that tie lies a strong association with criminality -- not unfounded, due to the insane difficulties of being urban poor -- but frequently overblown and misapplied, often to dangerous extremes (not where I come from, but the recent Martin case is a good example of how those assumptions are terribly dangerous and damaging).

TLGBQ persons usually are not associated with those KIND of assumptions because the economic prejudices are not tied in to the other bigotry. There is no negative stereotype of the gay man who will stalk you at an ATM and take your money. And Hothead Paisan never spread a trend for encouraging homicidal lesbian terrorism (which is good, since that was largely the point, really). This doesn't make stereotypes thrown toward TLGBQ individuals any kinder--it just means that people don't necessarily cross the street when they come their way.

But at the end of the day--there's still a good likelihood that someone might show up any moment tied up to a fence and beaten to death because they're different. They could be beaten to death because they're black. Or they could be beaten to death because they're gay. It can and does and will happen to both. (And in both cases the beatings could have been perpetrated by the police.)

Both groups have unique struggles (and TLGBQ persons of color have greater struggles still)---some can get worse than others. But as long as the worst endgame scenario is that someone can end up beaten to death either because of their race or their sexuality (or both) there's a lot of work to do for a very, very, VERY long time to come in both cases.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shifty wrote:
Anyhow, I have met a lot of GLB gamers, but not yet a T.

That you know of. Both before and after my transition, there would never have been any reason for people I gamed with to know I was T. There was only that year or two during where it might have been apparent, and at that point I was far too busy with life-stuff to game.

In my current group, everyone knows I'm L, but none of them know I'm T. It's not something I'd ever lie about, but there's also no reason to bring it up.

Interestingly, a clear majority of the transfolk I've talked to have played RPGs, often very seriously. It's a great way to get outside the body which is causing you distress.

Silver Crusade

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An interesting observation I heard a while back: LGBT people have the distinction of being one of the only minority groups that risks ostricization from their own families. With ethnic and racial minorities, the family is all identified as belonging to the same group (interracial families being a notable exception), and can therefore form a support network. I think each group has its own challenges.


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Yes the above is true, but I think it is worth mentioning that there are many reasons, not related to sexuial orientation, by which a person may find themself ostricized from their family. Yes some of those reasons might be because of a choice, and I do not belong to the group of individuals who believe sexual orientation is a choice, however, it may also be that a person finds themself cut off from their family for reasons that are not their choice. It happens, so I hope there isn't a misconception that this only happens to LGBT individuals.


You know what really sucks? Trying to get diagnosed as being one of the Ts in LGBT when your sheer level of tomboyishness and lesbianism make it somewhat hard to notice.


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Terquem wrote:
Yes the above is true, but I think it is worth mentioning that there are many reasons, not related to sexuial orientation, by which a person may find themself ostricized from their family. Yes some of those reasons might be because of a choice, and I do not belong to the group of individuals who believe sexual orientation is a choice, however, it may also be that a person finds themself cut off from their family for reasons that are not their choice. It happens, so I hope there isn't a misconception that this only happens to LGBT individuals.

While a person may get kicked out of their family for a number of personal issues, there's not many other demographic groups where this is a common experience.

This makes me recall that in one area I lived, the local active TLGBQ community referred to each other as "family" because so many of them had been kicked out of their homes, they thought of each other as the only family they had.

Andoran

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DeathQuaker wrote:
While a person may get kicked out of their family for a number of personal issues, there's not many other demographic groups where this is a common experience.

Religion can do it. That's a demographic group as well and, while it's not as common as for LGBTQ people, Pagans (for example) do very much get completely ostracized by former loved ones in some areas and communities. So some Pagan communities really do deal with precisely this kind of thing.

I should probably note here that I am both Pagan and straight, but would also note that my parents (and other assorted family) haven't ostracized me for my religion, and wouldn't for orientation either. I'm going purely based on anecdotes from people of alternative sexualities and religions, both those I've met personally and seen posted or discussed online.


As for the race treatment. I personally train myself to not react differently to race. Culture on the other hand I try to be exceptionally sensitive about. In my gaming group currently there is an african Canadian, a Blackfoot Cree, a caucasian Female, and a Caucasian male. Two of them are homosexual, as am I. I don't really see racial differences these are my friends why should I, and even if they weren't my friends, I would not treat them differently. I guess I have become fairly colorblind in that perspective but not culture blind.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

White dude here. I've been guilty of 1. My internal monologue on the rare occasions I encounter a dark-skinned person socially is something like "I need to be on my best behavior because there are so many damned stupid little things I probably picked up and am not even aware of." Not that I'm awkward and wary around people in general, but there's a difference between "Get it over with and move on" and the extra level of self-awareness.

I grew up and still live in a town so white that it didn't process that I had one light-skinned black boy in elementary class with me one year and spent almost my whole elementary career in the company of a biracial kid. I don't think most of the other kids noticed either, but we weren't close so I can't really say. I dimly recall overhearing another kid ask the teacher about the biracial boy's father (we'd seen his white mother come pick him up) and being told he was from an island off Africa. I might be a little atypical for my peers in that I have a cousin that's half-Egyptian and has skin a few shades darker than a typical southern European. She probably stretched my conception of whiteness a hair.

But it was a lily white town and when an actual black family had the temerity to show up to stay and they didn't pass, they had real problems. I was in high school at the time and no one bothered to have any kind of discussion with the student body about the sudden proliferation of racist jokes and flyers. One day the sheriff was just at the school every day, or sent a deputy. Nice place, if you're white. (And straight and Christian and male.)

From my perspective as a white gay dude, there is a significant overlap between the problems but they aren't the same. A lot of the political issues you can reduce to practically bigot mad libs. The sophisticated case against gay marriage is the anti-miscegenation argument from Loving V. Virginia with the nouns changed. ("You're not being discriminated against because straights can't gay marry either!" and "You're not being discriminated against because whites and blacks are equally forbidden from marrying outside the race!") It helps that the hardcore antigay people are pretty much the same people or the children and grandchildren of the hardcore anti race-mixing people. White southern and midwestern churches were among the backbones of white power back in the day. The same is largely true for the antigay movement, if not the precisely the same everywhere or to the same degree.

Generally being non-straight isn't equated with criminality, except for the presumption that gay men are sexual predators coming for your children. That stereotype has a long history with black men too, but the equal burden of presumed criminality in other ways does not transfer so much. Non-straights can often pass as straight, which is a luxury people with a darker skin color cannot usually enjoy. But then again the very thought of being thrown out of your home or family because of your skin color is pretty crazy. It's a real risk when it comes to sexuality.

Overall I think the situations are comparable, but not alike. All bigotry is pretty much the same thing and propagates in institutions in pretty similar ways, but the ways its victims are afflicted can vary considerably.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
While a person may get kicked out of their family for a number of personal issues, there's not many other demographic groups where this is a common experience.

Religion can do it. That's a demographic group as well and, while it's not as common as for LGBTQ people, Pagans (for example) do very much get completely ostracized by former loved ones in some areas and communities. So some Pagan communities really do deal with precisely this kind of thing.

I should probably note here that I am both Pagan and straight, but would also note that my parents (and other assorted family) haven't ostracized me for my religion, and wouldn't for orientation either. I'm going purely based on anecdotes from people of alternative sexualities and religions, both those I've met personally and seen posted or discussed online.

It's funny, but I deleted part of my post which was to note religion was a possible exception. I was worried about opening up that particular can of worms.

But since the tin opener's already been used: religion--or refusal of it--is a choice (even if it is a very strongly felt calling for some), and you will see I emphasized the word "common" in my post; even you yourself acknowledge religion causing rifts in families is less common. When it does causes rifts, it is certainly destructive, sure.

Andoran

DeathQuaker wrote:
It's funny, but I deleted part of my post which was to note religion was a possible exception. I was worried about opening up that particular can of worms.

Heh. Sorry, just immediately leapt out at me. Personal bias and all that, I suppose.

DeathQuaker wrote:
But since the tin opener's already been used: religion--or refusal of it--is a choice (even if it is a very strongly felt calling for some),

Oh, absolutely, but it's not usually a concious choice in the way going to this place or that for dinner is. Or a rational one in the usual sense (we are talking about faith after all). You wake up one day, or are having a philosophical discussion and you just realize "Hey, wait, I believe in that." or perhaps "I just can't believe in that any more." and your religion fundamentally changes then and there. Or at least that's one way it can happen.

And then (if what you believe, or no longer believe, is something that wouldn't be accepted by those you care for) you may be in trouble, as suddenly you're hiding something that matters deeply to you...or accepting that by admiting it you may be cast out by those who care about you.

DeathQuaker wrote:
and you will see I emphasized the word "common" in my post; even you yourself acknowledge religion causing rifts in families is less common. When it does causes rifts, it is certainly destructive, sure.

I dunno. What are we calling common? Is it less common for Pagans to be ostracized or treated horribly by their families than LGBTQ people? I'd say probably so. Is that having happened less common in the Pagan community than in the LGBTQ community? I'd, again, guess so, but I'm a bit less sure of that. And both those are guesses based on very little hard data.

The fear of it happening, and the support provided if it does, is definitely a part of the Pagan community in the same way (though not to the same degree) as it seems to be in the LGBTQ community (though some of that may be due to the overlap in the two communities, which is fairly substantial in my experience).

I'm not arguing that it's an equivalent problem really, but I think the similarities are interesting and help to establish empathy and understanding between people in the two communities in question, which I consider a very positive thing, actually.


Dogbladewarrior wrote:
One: Wary. White people whom haven’t had extensive interactions with black people often act this way. When talking to a black person, no matter whom they might be or what the situation is there is a tightness around their eyes and their shoulders are up. The primary concern on their mind is to not come off racist and to prove that “They have no problem with black people.”

To a certain point, I think its OK to be careful and tactful upon meeting someone we do not know and hope not to make a bad impression.

It all has to do with fear of the unknown, fear to disappoint others, fear to be rejected or to be branded as something you aren't (which relates to a fear of being treated unjustly); its not good, but its human nature. It acknowledges that racism/sexism/xenophobia are issues, but familiarity only comes with exposition to an unfamiliar subject, be it human or otherwise.

I bet most people would be "wary" in presence of...

- their new boss,
- their new father/mother in law,
- their new insurance broker (well, they might have other reasons to be wary about...),
- their Japanese/Afghan/African/[insert unfamiliar non-occidental country] correspondent visiting their own country,
- ... and off course, gays/lesbians and black people when you have not been (knowingly) exposed to many. Its easy to scorn at "wariness" when you are yourself familiar with something/someone another person is unfamiliar with, but I see it as a somewhat natural reaction.


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I'm wary with everyone. I'm shy. That's really all there is to it. :)

I am reasonably certain I am not the only socially awkward person on these boards either.

Andoran

For reference, I'm white, and I'm not participating in the ongoing racial prejudice discussion for a couple of reasons:

1. I grew up and still live in Montana (and not right near a reservation, either). The phrase "It's full of white people!" has been used with some justification. There were two black people in my entire High School. Not my class, the whole school (and we're talking several hundred people in the schol here). I've actually had friends (and one girlfriend) of other races but I have absolutely no experience with those races as groups only with individuals who happen to be this or that race...and (perhaps by luck) I've also basically never been a direct witness to real racial prejudice.

2. Possibly because of the above, I don't 'get' racism. Of any sort. On an emotional level, I have absolutely no idea how anyone could entertain such a bizarre notion as one race being superior or inferior to another, or even possessing anything approaching the kind of differences that aren't vastly outweighed by individual variation. I mean, I understand how it works intellectualy, but it just doesn't resonate with me emotionally at all, and I can't even begin to figure out how racism works. Hell, I'm occasionaly even oblivious to things one needs to understand racism to understand.

These two things combined mean that I have absolutely no insight on how racism works, and, really, nothing useful to say on the topic at hand.

Just thought I should note why I wasn't participating in the primary ongoing discussion of the moment.


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I just try to be myself at all times(ENFP?), with the quiet understanding that I am not for everyone and that I may even offend, confuse, or insult without knowing. When such misunderstandings come up, I apologize and and try to make amends. If disagreements come up, I try to agree to disagree where I can to avoid ugliness. Everyone has their story, and their experiences may run counter to my own.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'm not arguing that it's an equivalent problem really, but I think the similarities are interesting and help to establish empathy and understanding between people in the two communities in question, which I consider a very positive thing, actually.

I read something years ago about a guy who in discovering he was gay and seeing what that meant in his daily life made him suddenly get all these stories about struggles for equality and against oppression and the like that he'd spent years hearing as sort of background static. I think I had a little bit of a similar experience during my college years. "Oh yes this sucks for me, but things like this also sucked similarly for other people and- Ah ha! There's a common element here!"


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
lynora wrote:

I'm wary with everyone. I'm shy. That's really all there is to it. :)

I am reasonably certain I am not the only socially awkward person on these boards either.

I'm easily the most awkward person I know. :) I missed a "not" in a prior post, but probably anybody who reads my posts for long mentally inserted it.

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