Kingdom Come, Kingdom Go


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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Noticed there was some interest in another thread regarding the establishment of close proximity kingdoms (or settlements as referred in the blog), so I wanted to break that discussion out into its own thread. Specifically aiming at discussing the top end Settlements and the strategic and logistical implications, I went to the blog and re-read some of this:

Goblinworks Blog wrote:

Settlements—In order to create a player settlement, a fort must be advanced using a special settlement construction process. Before this can begin, the hex must be cleared of any watchtowers or forts owned by any character not a signatory of the settlement's charter. Building a settlement requires massive amounts of resources and extensive amounts of time.

The features of a settlement are varied and warrant their own separate dev blog. Since we do not expect the first player settlements to be introduced into the game until well after launch, we'll reserve those details for now.

and also this blog regarding the production of goods, but specifically the Settlement Input and Settlement Output portions as the various types of inputs and outputs are divided up by Easy-gather, and PvE-sourced categories.

i've been left pondering what sort of ramifications exist at the fusion of these two concepts. Given the size of a hex, how large/small a group can we realistically expect to control an entire hex. From an archived thread we find the area of a hex breaks down to about .51, with the sides of about .71 miles. Even when you consider the 15 seconds to a minute timeframe (for travel and time passage, not actual gameplay), It seems to me a rather considerable number of people would be required to completely secure a hex. Being able to protect your borders would be a challenge, much less invading a neighboring hex and waging war with another settlement (even if Fort sized or smaller).

Anyone else have some thoughts on the matter?

Goblin Squad Member

We don't need to completely secure the hex; we need to reduce any existing watchtowers and forts that we don't own.

To do that, I expect the process is something like this:

Before a hex is chosen, company explorers search the hex for prominent terrain features as well as bulk resources like stone and timber that will be needed for construction. Since we won't have any settlements for the first six months or so, that means that the initial 256 hexes might be well surveyed before the first settlements are attempted.

The chartered company moves into the target hex and construction crews quickly build one or more pre-settlement watchtowers. I'd expect watchtowers to increase observer abilities; they may make it easier to locate other existing watchtowers or fortifications. In any event, getting our own watchtowers built is critical because their presence will prevent any other company from starting a fort in the hex; the towers are the first step in claiming some area. Note that these watchtowers likely *can* be built before settlements are possible, so some companies will be making claims (building watchtowers) and getting the opportunity to defend those claims in the first six months.

About the same time, the company is also constructing other structures: semi-permanent resource camps for that timber and stone, maybe a structure like an inn to serve as a headquarters and mess for the company, etc.

As for population, I think the proposed numbers were 4500 per month for the first 6-8(?) months. Let say that settlements are possible after month 6, so maybe 27k total players, some hard core, some casual. With 256 initial hexes, that's a population density of 100/hex. I'd guess that the first settlements might be attempted by groups of 50-100 players. Expect the first watchtowers to be built as soon as some architect can get the skill.

Goblin Squad Member

As things stand, I am expecting to allow all good aligned companies and players to settle in GL controlled territory.

It is our goal to see all good aligned companies working together, and we would glad to open up diplomatic negotiations with any good or neutral aligned company as such.

Ideally I see us living alongside other allied and friendly companies rather than creating a GL only hex.

However I agree with Urman that completely securing a hex should and will most likely be unnecessary. Hopefully once a settlement is established the process of losing it involves losing the fort you used to establish it.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think I agree with the numbers presented (100% retention is highly unlikely, imo), and of course the initial numbers at launch will be minimal and ramp up over time. I was thinking in terms of a robust population, well past launch. Also the number of hexes will be extensible based on the total subscriber base + density, so I'm also not really worried about any assumptions of population per hex. There's also the consideration of PvE wandering monsters placing drag on any settlement plans.

I do like the idea of considerable scouting of the wild, for possible sites of construction. It would be great if we had some kind of details on that sort of situation. Perhaps if the locations for building were only discoverable to explorers of a high enough surveying skill "unlock" possible construction sites, or even require a team of high level surveyors to discover the ideal sites for a Fort/Settlement.

Maybe a robust established Settlement wouldn't have to maintain a complete quarantine from outside influences, but I would expect patrols and so on to maintain a secure area (vs both PvE and Player incursions) for the "home-team's" resource gathering operations, dungeon crawlers, etc. It seems pretty reasonable to establish a ring of watchtowers in neighboring hexes to both aid patrols and hedge against encroachment.

It seems with that strategy, a guild might be tempted to expand into a neighboring hex (for the sake of argument, unpopulated). Such a burgeoning empire might over extend if they don't have a good idea of how many people it might actually require to "hold" a hex vs incursions.

Goblin Squad Member

@Gruffling - good point on the bordering watchtowers. They will be both a hedge against encroachment and a source of conflict with others.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm wondering how much planning ahead of a suitable site for a kingdom will occur or if they will grow organically?

Seems very likely that "good" kingdoms will arise first as the cooperation will be very high for these and the benefits for those avoiding bandits and other dangers will be high.

If I'm honest, I see myself working as a bandit exploiting differences between kingdoms and hiring out to a kingdom to "operate" in a competitor's area, so gaining a steady pay and commission on any loot going as well.

Goblin Squad Member

I am not certain on the number of inhabitants will be required for the creating and maintaining of a settlement; However, I suspect it will be lower than you might think. First, I expect any group starting a settlement will post bounty’s for the elimination of wandering monsters, or rival watchtowers. The actual clearing of the hex might not necessarily be done by charter members.

I myself plan to be a merchant specializing in the processing of low end items. Things like lumber, stone, food, ect. I plan on watching for new settlements very intently, and will hire people to transport the needed goods to the area. This will eliminate the time necessary to harvest the goods locally. Build the fort, then the settlement, THEN build the local infrastructure. My hope is, I can store enough goods, and keep the price low enough that my services will be of great benefit to the settlement, and they will allow me to open a processing shop without requiring me to be a charter member. Protecting my caravans, and not attacking my caravans in other areas, without officially aligning my caravans to their settlement, making them a large target for the rival settlements.

Goblin Squad Member

I like the concept of outsourcing to clean a hex, both as an expedient (calling in specialists), and as a good move politically (the owner of that watchtower won't know for certain it was your coin that fronted the assault).

I guess in the lacking of details about how long it might take, what sort of amassed resources or skill requirements it might take to put it all together, we can't really say [i]n[/n] players will be the optimal. But it occurred to me from the other side... how many should it take to get it all together? Again considering a robust total population, with plenty of healthy companies maintaining forces large enough to build, but not so large as to become monolithic faceless corporations.

Goblin Squad Member

Riffing off the idea of posting bounties for clearing out local wandering monsters, it strikes me that as the hex gets more civilized the inhabitants might have to post higher and higher bounties to make it worthwhile for groups to come in and spend their time searching for the few wandering monsters that remain. I like that.

Goblin Squad Member

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The key to this will be how much time/effort it takes to construct/destroy a watch-tower (and other buildings for established settlements). If it's a rather significant amount of time/effort, then you won't have to be too crazy in terms of patrols in order to "claim" a territory....as you don't have to stop every hostile group coming in, you just have to prevent the construction of competeing watch-towers.

Thus you won't be forced into a crazy level of reactivity. The less time/effort involved in construction/destruction of watch-towers then the more reactive you'll have to be in order to take/hold a hex....and the more effort/people will be required in terms of things like patrols.

Assuming a significant time/effort involved in the construction/destruction of watch-towers, which I think would be a good thing for the game, then there is a far cry between "claiming" a hex and making it relatively "safe" for the populace. In other words, once you've "claimed" a hex, you work has just hardly begun (or idealy SHOULD BE) in terms of developing that hex and making it usefull/proffitable/safe for the populace.

I think that would be a good dynamic for the game...as it deemphasizes the focus on constantly and rapidly aquiring and trading hex's and shifts it more into making good use of the hex's that you do claim. In that way, there is less strain on the developers in terms of constantly having to expand the number of hex's and it will provide a greater sense of social stability for the players. It allows for things to change over time...but it doesn't force players into a situation where they feel like they are lost or unable to keep up with what's happening in the world if they aren't playing 24/7.

Goblin Squad Member

I agree with you, GrumpyMel. I'd much rather see the game incentivize responsible use of a hex over taking another hex.

Of course, the safer you make your hex, the less valuable the resources you'll be extracting there, so that will play a large part in strategic planning as well. Will we have a strong incentive to keep a nearby wilderness hex as wild as possible in order to maximize our ability to extract high-value resources from it?

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I agree with you, GrumpyMel. I'd much rather see the game incentivize responsible use of a hex over taking another hex.

Of course, the safer you make your hex, the less valuable the resources you'll be extracting there, so that will play a large part in strategic planning as well. Will we have a strong incentive to keep a nearby wilderness hex as wild as possible in order to maximize our ability to extract high-value resources from it?

That's an interesting dynamic that you noted, Nihimon. If I remember the blog post about crafting correctly, it's a multi-step process. Resource extraction being the first step, then proccessing the next step.... I think that produces intermediary materials/components and then assembly/crafting to get the finnished goods.

That would seem to imply that you want acess to a wilderness hex for extracting high value raw resources (I'm assuming that the more mundane/common resources that are available in civilized hex's would still be required for crafting of some of the more common/mundane staple items that people would use every day, while the rarer stuff would be more for exotic/high power or speciality items that are really nice to have but not a basic requirement of keeping a settlement running) but you want to have your processing/assembly facilities in "safe" hex's in order to protect them (and maybe maximize NPC worker efficiency,...more people available to work in an area when they feel it's "safe" or civilized).

I think that means that the most effective Kingdoms are going to be looking at maintaining/optimizing fairly extensive trade/supply routes. That may mean that the way to go is to cut some sort of deal or even have a satelite/puppet state relationship between "safe", highly civilized, highly developed settlements where the main manufacturing activity takes place and border/frontier settlements with ready access to high value raw materials.....and of course, some means of securing passage of goods for the route in between. In a way, it sort of reminds me of the dynamic that existed historicaly in the age of colonial expansion.

This is all speculation of course, but it would be really exciting if that sort of dynamic eventualy developed.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I agree with you, GrumpyMel. I'd much rather see the game incentivize responsible use of a hex over taking another hex.

Of course, the safer you make your hex, the less valuable the resources you'll be extracting there, so that will play a large part in strategic planning as well. Will we have a strong incentive to keep a nearby wilderness hex as wild as possible in order to maximize our ability to extract high-value resources from it?

.

I do wonder if it would work that way, however.

Let us say that there is an exotic and very valuable resource that, at the beginning of the game, is far out into the wilderness. Not only is it time consuming to get to, but dangerous.

But over time, where people become stronger, let us say a guild becomes strong enough, not only in able to endure that more dangerous area, but strong enough financially to build a stronghold that surrounds the exotic and valuable resource.

Once the stronghold is build and fortfied it is now a relative safe haven for the guild members. Of course there is always that chance that the guild can be raided, but that is the chance for any well established guild.

But in regards to the resource, wouldn't it 'stay' exotic and valuable? Does it automatically become a more mundane resource because it is now more secure in a stronghold?

I can see why it would, because access to the resource would be lost to those outside of this guild. And you don't want GW adding more spawn points for rare and valuable resources because, well, they start becoming less rare and valuable.

But I can also see the point of the guild, where one of the reasons they built in this area, was due to the very valuable resource. I know I would be more than a little frustrated our valuable commodity now was mundane because it was not accessible by others and/or too easy to harvest since it was on guild grounds.

It's an interesting dilemma.

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
That's an interesting dynamic that you noted, Nihimon.

That's my very favorite sentence, every time I see it :)

I imagine that we'll be putting up sparse, mostly unattended Harvesting Camp Facilities in relatively safe hexes to gather the common resources, then pick those Facilities up and head out to the wilderness in force to set them back up in dense, well-defended positions to quickly extract high-value resources.

@Hobbun, you raise a valid point, and I certainly don't know for sure. In fact, re-reading this quote makes me think the resource might very well stay high-value even after the hex is civilized by the players:

Quote:
Generally speaking, the more common—and less valuable—a resource is, the more likely it is to be found near secure NPC Settlements.

Even if it is the case that the resource can stay high-value, then I imagine there will still be a dynamic where we set up our Camp Facilities as sparsely as possible to avoid drawing significant random encounters during our off-peak hours, then concentrate them as densely as possible during Company events designed to maximize resource acquisition.

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:

The key to this will be how much time/effort it takes to construct/destroy a watch-tower (and other buildings for established settlements). If it's a rather significant amount of time/effort, then you won't have to be too crazy in terms of patrols in order to "claim" a territory....as you don't have to stop every hostile group coming in, you just have to prevent the construction of competeing watch-towers.

Thus you won't be forced into a crazy level of reactivity. The less time/effort involved in construction/destruction of watch-towers then the more reactive you'll have to be in order to take/hold a hex....and the more effort/people will be required in terms of things like patrols.

Assuming a significant time/effort involved in the construction/destruction of watch-towers, which I think would be a good thing for the game, then there is a far cry between "claiming" a hex and making it relatively "safe" for the populace. In other words, once you've "claimed" a hex, you work has just hardly begun (or idealy SHOULD BE) in terms of developing that hex and making it usefull/proffitable/safe for the populace.

I think that would be a good dynamic for the game...as it deemphasizes the focus on constantly and rapidly aquiring and trading hex's and shifts it more into making good use of the hex's that you do claim. In that way, there is less strain on the developers in terms of constantly having to expand the number of hex's and it will provide a greater sense of social stability for the players. It allows for things to change over time...but it doesn't force players into a situation where they feel like they are lost or unable to keep up with what's happening in the world if they aren't playing 24/7.

Agree time to construct vs destruct seems the key measure. Slower being preferred. I'd uspect a watchtower will be near impossible for a solo to take, and a larger party a challenge, and more accessible to the next level of grouping up and so forth: An arms race of grouping sizes/organization and resources vs a fortification size and similarly defensive grouping/resources available - and allies being a big factor too, no doubt.

So each type of structure warrants the resources to gain an advantage at the scale of operation intended, I suspect?

Eg Castles were built to dominate lands (until the invention of the cannon) so assume the highest level of settlement Kingdom-level fortification would require the highest level retatiliation to take out: "Siege construction and state of war"??

Especially if the 50-100 odd people of a settlement were protecting it.

I wonder if soul-binding will come into it. So slain players without access to nearby rez spot would be thrown far back?

Goblin Squad Member

I love that this is revealing high level meta design concerns, as Hobbun pointed out a very important question; What value is a Settlement if the once high value resource has been depleted. At this macro scale, this is starting to look a lot like a resource and development game like Civilization. If you build on a limited high value resource, but no adjoining Hex has much in the way of high value prospects, is that worthwhile? Seems like finding a hex "surrounded" by high value prospects would be more worthwhile, even if the settled hex has low or medium value prospects.

Grumpy makes some excellent points about the dynamic of time spent constructing/destroying a watchtower as the "sweet" spot of hex control. I'd like to add to that equation also the resources required to put one up as a significant factor. Should a guild be able to speed the process of construction if all the lumber/stone is sitting in a big pile right at the site? This might shift some of the burden of construction to the logistics of stockpiling materials. Will the structures "grow" out of the immediate materials at hand, and simply require time spent managing the construction and protecting the working folk from random Orcs or opposing guilds?

I'm strangely excited by the prospect of deciding shipping routes through dangerous wilderness terrain... particularly a strange feeling since I'm not even sure if I'm interested in being a Settlement owner or manager. This level of commitment strikes me as analogous to "end-game" raiding for theme-park mmos, with the difference being a wondrous sense of ownership over the motivations and actions of the group.

I'm still concerned about the size of the guild required to get the whole works off the ground. Hopefully the sense of ownership over the project will bind a guild tighter, but managing an online group of 50+ players with no ties but what they choose to make can be a daunting and genuinely unpleasant experience. On the other side of that coin, if a watchtower can be tossed up by 10 players in 2 hours of work, one can assume the land will become positively filthy with them. An interesting conundrum indeed.

Goblin Squad Member

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After realizing that I was probably mistaken about high-value resources turning into low-value resources after the hex was civilized by players, I'm now imagining Harvesting events where we go out in force, set up a bunch of Harvesting Camps, and then have to run the gauntlet with our bounty to get it back home and safe.

I imagine there will be other players who realize we're out in force gathering materials, who then decide to wait in ambush for us to see if they can take away our bounty.

Hopefully, we'll be able to send out decoy caravans.

This is really exciting to me :)

Goblin Squad Member

One thing to take into consideration with high/low value resources is it's going to be a player driven market. If it's a rare resource that is easy to access once a fort is established nearby the supply might overwhelm demand and drive down the price naturally. As such the suppliers may limit what they supply to inflate demand. Of course if someone else robs some caravans, or finds another supply source and floods the market, well, something may just have to be done about those yahoos that are milking your cash cow.

I don't see a rare (usually high value) resource becoming increasingly common just because it's been developed. The pricing will remain whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

I'll be one of those low-lifes waiting to take your bounty. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Hobbun wrote:
Nihimon wrote:

I agree with you, GrumpyMel. I'd much rather see the game incentivize responsible use of a hex over taking another hex.

Of course, the safer you make your hex, the less valuable the resources you'll be extracting there, so that will play a large part in strategic planning as well. Will we have a strong incentive to keep a nearby wilderness hex as wild as possible in order to maximize our ability to extract high-value resources from it?

.

I do wonder if it would work that way, however.

Let us say that there is an exotic and very valuable resource that, at the beginning of the game, is far out into the wilderness. Not only is it time consuming to get to, but dangerous.

But over time, where people become stronger, let us say a guild becomes strong enough, not only in able to endure that more dangerous area, but strong enough financially to build a stronghold that surrounds the exotic and valuable resource.

Once the stronghold is build and fortfied it is now a relative safe haven for the guild members. Of course there is always that chance that the guild can be raided, but that is the chance for any well established guild.

But in regards to the resource, wouldn't it 'stay' exotic and valuable? Does it automatically become a more mundane resource because it is now more secure in a stronghold?

I can see why it would, because access to the resource would be lost to those outside of this guild. And you don't want GW adding more spawn points for rare and valuable resources because, well, they start becoming less rare and valuable.

But I can also see the point of the guild, where one of the reasons they built in this area, was due to the very valuable resource. I know I would be more than a little frustrated our valuable commodity now was mundane because it was not accessible by others and/or too easy to harvest since it was on guild grounds.

It's an interesting dilemma.

I think that depends on the nature of the "resource" in question. For things like minerals and herbs, etc.... yeah, logicaly there is no reason why the would become unavailable simply because a hex became civilized. Although I imagine that GW could put in a mechanic where a resource node depleted and perhaps even disappeared over time, an reappeared somewhere else, if they desired to create the dynamic. So it's at least theoritacly possible for such resources to become less productive if heavly harvested...inducing players to seek out fresh sources of them.

Then you have resources of a different nature, things that might be getting harvested directly from PVE content....whether this takes the form of "treasure" or litteraly harvested from monsters. I imagine things like Wyvern Blood or Beholders Eyes could be a valuable type of "resource".....particulary as components for the manufacture of magical items (consumables) like potions or scrolls. With those sorts of resources, there definately would seem to be a dynamic that the more "civilized" a hex becomes, the less available they are. Naturaly things like Wyverns or Beholders, etc would be less likely to be found in "highly civilized" hex's simply due to being killed/driven off.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think GW already mentioned the intent that civilized/safe hex's would have more common/lower leveled PVE monsters/lairs and the really dangerous stuff would be further out in the wilderness. So that's another way such a dynamic could be preserved.

Goblin Squad Member

Sintaqx wrote:

One thing to take into consideration with high/low value resources is it's going to be a player driven market. If it's a rare resource that is easy to access once a fort is established nearby the supply might overwhelm demand and drive down the price naturally. As such the suppliers may limit what they supply to inflate demand. Of course if someone else robs some caravans, or finds another supply source and floods the market, well, something may just have to be done about those yahoos that are milking your cash cow.

I don't see a rare (usually high value) resource becoming increasingly common just because it's been developed. The pricing will remain whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

I'll be one of those low-lifes waiting to take your bounty. :)

Also to consider with resources, the more advanced the settlement, the more rare and more wide the distribution of resources needed for the completion of these higher grade settlements will likely be. So Kingdoms will probably require even wider network chains of supplies as they grow?

If so, kingdoms would be further susceptible to the above, either suppliers hording/demanding high prices or other means to hit the supply chain and drive up costs. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

After realizing that I was probably mistaken about high-value resources turning into low-value resources after the hex was civilized by players, I'm now imagining Harvesting events where we go out in force, set up a bunch of Harvesting Camps, and then have to run the gauntlet with our bounty to get it back home and safe.

I imagine there will be other players who realize we're out in force gathering materials, who then decide to wait in ambush for us to see if they can take away our bounty.

Hopefully, we'll be able to send out decoy caravans.

This is really exciting to me :)

There is, of course, the other end of it too. We've mostly been talking about the flow of raw resources back to developed hex's to produce goods. You've also got the natural possibility for the flow of finnished goods back out to the frontier in order to supply the "resource gatherers" and/or settlers with the tools they need to do thier work.

Now it's entirely possible that you have people gear/stock up in a "civilized" hex....travel way out to a wilderness hex, gather thier resources, and then ferry those resources back to the civilized hex for processing and repeat, etc.

However that's NOT the only way to do it and probably not the most efficient way to do it. Imagine this dynamic instead. You have a "civilized" settlement where most of the manufacture of goods take place. Then some distance away you have a "frontier" settlment on the border of a wilderness area. The "frontier" settlement is a barely civilized hex that is more the nature of a heavly armed camp in the middle of the wilderness that acts as a sort of forward base for resource gathering expeditions into the wilderness....

So lets say we have a team of resource gatherers, in this case "Wyvern Hunters". Now our Wyvern Hunters venture out into the wilderness to gather thier valuable resource... Wyvern Blood... because the wilderness are where Wyverns are found. Now they COULD transport that resource all the way back to civilization themselves....but they don't really need to.... it's much more efficient for them to just transport it back to the "frontier" settlement themselves, hand it off (sell it) to someone else there and go back out into the wilderness for the next Wyvern Hunting Expedition. Now Wyvern Hunting is a dangerous occupation, and in order to be effective you probably need to use some goods on each expedition.... you probably need some cure poison potions, maybe some healing potions, maybe some repair/replacement of arms and armor. Rather then go all the way back to civilization where these finnished goods are manufactured....it's far more valuable for our Wyverns Hunters to just be able to restock/resupply in the "frontier" settlement....and where there is demand, there is supply.

So you have our Wyvern Hunters who are going out into the wilderness to gather Wyvern Blood and consuming cure potions in order to do it.

You have your merchants/caravan masters who are taking the Wyvern Blood the Wyvern Hunters sell at the Frontier Outpost and transporting it back to civilization to be sold to manufacturers, and in return picking up cure portions from where they are manufactured in civilization and bringing them back to the Frontier Outpost to deliver to the Wyvern Hunters.

Then you have the crafters/manufacturers back in civilization who are taking those raw resources and turning them into valuable finnished goods.

You've got a complete circle of trade....and you've got the potential for all the other folks who are involved in supporting or proffiting of it (i.e. caravan guards, teamsters, robbers/bandits, soldiers, healers, etc).

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, I think GW already mentioned the intent that civilized/safe hex's would have more common/lower leveled PVE monsters/lairs and the really dangerous stuff would be further out in the wilderness.

That's what I thought too, but upon re-reading it, I see that they were referring to proximity to NPC Settlements.

Goblin Squad Member

Resources obtained by harvesting and materials obtained by PVE (killing/looting monsters and lairs) follow different rules.

EDIT: shortened since grumpymel says most of it a few posts above

For harvesting resources, location=resource and the presence of pc settlements does not change gold to copper.

For pve resources, the civilization rating in the hex affects which mobs spawn, so the presence of pc or npc settlement matters.

This makes two interesting dynamics. One is how local resources promote variety and spread of settlements resulting in trade and politics. The other is the civilization-wilderness dynamic where crafters want civilization, adventurers need wilderness, and the frontier will be full of action.

Goblin Squad Member

randomwalker wrote:
For pve resources, the civilization rating in the hex affects which mobs spawn, so the presence of pc or npc settlement matters.

I'm not sure I would be certain of that. I also think there's a decent chance that Ryan is not willing to nail it down yet, too, since he hasn't come in to the thread with a clarification.

IF "Civilization" is defined as "NPC Civilization", then Player Settlements out in the Wilderness will continue to draw high-value encounters. The idea of a Player Settlement being subject to repeated Dragon attacks even after it's been developed for several years appeals to me.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
randomwalker wrote:
For pve resources, the civilization rating in the hex affects which mobs spawn, so the presence of pc or npc settlement matters.

I'm not sure I would be certain of that. I also think there's a decent chance that Ryan is not willing to nail it down yet, too, since he hasn't come in to the thread with a clarification.

IF "Civilization" is defined as "NPC Civilization", then Player Settlements out in the Wilderness will continue to draw high-value encounters. The idea of a Player Settlement being subject to repeated Dragon attacks even after it's been developed for several years appeals to me.

I'm going to throw out a guess here, but what if the content is more based on the encampments. Resources as well could become based on things, A rarely mined area, could tend to gain better resources then one that is regularly mined. The most powerful monsters could come in more in relation to how unchecked certain encampments are, Say dragons show up after the kobalds have developed a deep infrastructure for them etc...

Powerful necromancers show up etc...

Proximity to towns dosn't need to be a direct factor at all, but it could be an implicit factor. (IE if 500 people are crossing a road on a daily basis, odds are the minor kobalds etc... will be cleaned out on a regular basis etc and thus rarely will they bring more dangerous things to the mix.

Goblin Squad Member

What would throw a spanner into the mix, if there were some particularly evil/rock hard hexes with abnormally high number of encampments, lairs and large/terrible wandering monsters and how those would influence kingdom hexes.

Some randomness like that would shake things up.

Goblin Squad Member

I like what you've got there AvenaOats. I was also trying to consider the impact of a varied terrain might influence both parts of that equation. Also on your idea, the concept of Big Bad Monsters (Storm Giants, Demons, Linnorms) spawning at random, and wandering from Hex to Hex, riling up the locals. Essentially every time a BBM wanders through, in mechanical terms, the encounter, encampment and aggressiveness of the local monsters ramps up and even after the BBM is defeated or moves on, the hex destabilizes into turmoil.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I like both Gruffling's and AvenaOats' ideas a lot.

Would there be a way for players to use subversive means to achieve the same end? I could very well imagine a group which uses treacherous, underhanded means of spreading such chaos as a form of economic warfare. In one case, the threat of the BBM causes destabilization. In another case, sneaky players achieve a similar end not by rampaging through and butchering peasants, but successful actions full of appropriate skullduggery in enemy territory.

Maybe there might also be occasional sneaky mobs who are capable of causing similar disarray if they get to a particularly important NPC or facility? "We're not safe here. Our rulers can't protect us. The mayor was murdered in the street!"

Using modern lingo, would we want asymmetric threats to a hex's stability from PvP and/or PvE? If we do, how to we implement them?


On the topic of working together, how do the companies intent on creating a kingdom expect to tax their 'allies'? I think that if the Order of the Thorn made it to that point, we'd levy a tax which would then be ploughed back into the community.

Goblin Squad Member

Lictor Fedryn Mannorac wrote:
On the topic of working together, how do the companies intent on creating a kingdom expect to tax their 'allies'? I think that if the Order of the Thorn made it to that point, we'd levy a tax which would then be ploughed back into the community.

I think the political institutions of any given kingdom can vary as much as the player wish; including tax systems: From democracy to dictatorship to theocracy and royalty and more!

Further on the topic of the influence of Gruffling's "Big Bad Monsters" (Storm Giants, Demons, Linnorms)[dragons]roving influences on mobs/encampments (feast of crows etc), I was wondering if natural disasters could make an appearance such as wildfires, landslides and possible weather also? These "acts of god" would be interesting for all sorts of reasons: Insurance, disruption to markets and organising the clean-up efforts... bit of a stretch to add, but adds more chaos to the world.

Goblin Squad Member

Lictor Fedryn Mannorac wrote:
On the topic of working together, how do the companies intent on creating a kingdom expect to tax their 'allies'?

Taxes could be an expansion of the contract system. The settlement company provides the permission to run a inn and the innkeeper pays either a percentage of the gross revenues or a fixed amount per month. Likewise guildhalls, chartered company offices and dormitories, resource camps - they all might require permissions from the company that owns the settlement.

And rogue-types should have a financial skill/badge to attempt to under-report their gross revenues.

Goblin Squad Member

Lictor Fedryn Mannorac wrote:
On the topic of working together, how do the companies intent on creating a kingdom expect to tax their 'allies'?

We haven't discussed it extensively, but given the principles upon which we founded The Seventh Veil, I imagine we'll all agree that whatever government exists at the Kingdom level should allow as much liberty and autonomy as possible beneath it, and tax only enough to fund the truly necessary activities.

I expect most of our elaborate projects will be voluntarily funded.

Goblin Squad Member

I want the presence of a Settlement to have a meaningful, persistent effect on the hex it occupies.

You have to imagine that along with the characters who live in a Settlement, most of the population are Common Folk - the "sims" of Pathfinder Online, who you never see, but have a huge impact on the world around them.

(You never see them because the resource cost on servers and clients to have a huge population of Common Folk in the world is too great to bother with.)

The longer a Settlement exists in a Hex, and the more advanced it becomes, the more the Hex changes. The types of challenges that spawn in the hex change, as does their type. Ruins get cleared of really dangerous foes, so they're more suitable for lower-level adventurers. But caverns reveal deeper passages and for parties able to operate far from the surface the challenges can be quite horrific!

To support the Common Folk a lot of land has to be cleared and used for farming. That reduces the kinds of resources that might be found in the Hex. The more scarce a resource is, the more likely and rapidly it is to become depleted. We don't want Settlements to set up camp on top of the most valuable resources and then extract monopoly rents for access to those resources forever. Just like a town built around a gold mine might boom and then bust, so too might a Settlement built just to exploit a valuable resource.

If a Settlement gets destroyed, the Hex will slowly revert to its original condition. Farms will disappear. Wild beasts will return. ruins will get scarier, and access to the deep underground will be lost. The mix of resources generated by the hex will change and some materials not seen for a long while may begin to reappear.

RyanD

Goblin Squad Member

All of that sounds great, Ryan, and it makes a lot of sense.

The only question I have is, why would access to deep, underground caverns only be available when a settlement is nearby?

I understand it may be draining on the resources of a party if they find a cavern entrance far away from a settlement, and then still be hardy enough to travel deep into the underground cavern. However, I think the option should at least be there.

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Goblin Squad Member

@Hobbun - the idea is that the nature of the challenges you face in a Hex change when the Hex is settled.

We always want there to be things for relatively inexperienced/poorly equipped characters to do, as well as experienced/well equipped characters.

I want the sense that the Settlement is impacting the Hex to be expressed in how the nature of those challenges changes over time.

A ruin in an empty Hex could be infested with all sorts of high-level undead and other fellow travelers. As the Hex develops, those opponents will be cleared out by the most experienced and well equipped PCs (for the safety of the Settlement and the Common Folk). Afterwards, they'll still potentially be dangerous, but the danger will be of a different, less existential manner.

Likewise, caverns in wilderness areas are not well explored. You might stumble on the entrance to a cave, go inside and find a monstrous creature or something like a trap or a band of NPC outlaws. Clearing that out might be a suitable encounter for inexperienced/poorly equipped PCs. But later, as the Hex develops, people find deeper and more obscure entrances to the world beneath. Soon all those shallow caves are cleared and safe, but the deep caverns give access to really high-level challenges.

So the act of Settlement itself will change what you do to find adventure in a Hex.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the explanation, Ryan, it sounds really awesome. I truly like the everchanging aspects the world will have.

I know that is what a sandbox game entails, but this will be a new experience for me.

Goblin Squad Member

Hobbun wrote:

Thanks for the explanation, Ryan, it sounds really awesome. I truly like the everchanging aspects the world will have.

I know that is what a sandbox game entails, but this will be a new experience for me.

I couldn't agree more. Ryan's last two comments have me very excited for the overall dynamism of the environment. If GW can pull the spirit of the ideas off in the game, PFO will be on the way to a truly amazing and new gaming experience.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan, thanks very much for clearing this up.

I really liked the dynamic associated with having to range out to wild hexes to Harvest the really high-value resources, and I'm glad that my initial understanding was closer to the mark.

Goblin Squad Member

That sounds v good: Low & High level content pull/push with settlement-wilderness of the hex.

Goblin Squad Member

So when some young whippersnappers decide to move in on 'your' wilderness, to 'steal' 'your' resources, well then that simply isn't something you can allow. I like it!

Makes sense then to set up your watchtowers and station bandits... err, I mean park rangers... inside the hex to keep it pristine for your own exploitation

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ryan Dancey wrote:


A ruin in an empty Hex could be infested with all sorts of high-level undead and other fellow travelers. As the Hex develops, those opponents will be cleared out by the most experienced and well equipped PCs (for the safety of the Settlement and the Common Folk). Afterwards, they'll still potentially be dangerous, but the danger will be of a different, less existential manner.

Is it the settlement that lowers the level of the ruins, or is it the act of clearing out the ruins that lowers the ruins? I see problems either way, with the best compromise being that a settlement has to clear out the ruins (and lairs and the like) often enough to prevent the residents of those locations from clearing out the settlement.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:


Is it the settlement that lowers the level of the ruins

Yes.

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