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So, what's everybody's favorite class for playing gay characters? Trans characters?
No favourite since when I make characters they are more than 95% LGBT in some capacity. My longest running character in a 5e game is a gay man, and the fact that he is gay only came up once when he was solicited by a pair of women (actually doppelgangers, and totally caught the sorcerer with his pants down, if you know what I mean), and he turned them down, so the party was all basically 'Oh yeah alright'. Him being gay is kinda a part of his backstory as it was his husband that was murdered that drove him to adventuring, but that was about it. He was in a party with a lesbian paladin, so he wasn't exactly one to stand out.
I don't like playing cis or het characters. They tend to be really uncomfortable for me and while the fact that any character might not be never really comes up, me knowing the difference is important enough.
Weirdly enough, taking forever to work out that I actually was trans and asexual, I spent the longest time playing trans and asexual characters without realizing it.
I did this as well with many of my characters. Actually, D&D was immensely helpful in realising I was trans because of this very reason. I had characters that were using shapechanging all the time and it kinda clicked when I looked back.
One of my sorcerer characters is turning into a dragon from their bloodline. And I had envisioned them as changing themselves subconsciously to match their own self-image, and had that power since they were young, so looking back I just kinda facepalmed and realised 'g~~$#&nit, she's trans, she's just my own anxieties pushed onto the character.'
Yeah, spellcasters and transness really have a pretty potent and traceable connection I think. That ability to so cleanly change ones body is...pretty attractive an idea?
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Very, very sorry to revive this discussion, but as I've now been attacked elsewhere on the boards over what I said, I'm going to offer some clarification.
I did not speak directly to Sissyl, but one of my posts was prompted by something she said. Sissyl, if you're still reading this thread, I am sorry about my earlier comment about allies if that added to the hurt you were feeling. I am sorry. It sounds like the things you've done are pretty great, and though I don't think we've ever spoken directly here, you come across as a really good person.
I don’t entirely disagree. However if anyone identifies something as a ‘trigger,’ or potentially hate-speech, or simply asks that you stop referring to a group to which they belong fallaciously, and instead confine your comments to real groups, which really embody the crimes you hate I don’t understand why you wouldn’t stop. I do.
I would stop. And I would clarify if out of frustration I'd spoken too broadly. And if they were still upset, then I'd apologize.
So let me clarify what I was trying to say to you, Trek. There are times when one gets frustrated by oppression (systemic or otherwise) and outright expressions of bigotry. And that will sometimes lead to some very blunt and potentially overreaching words being spoken about the dominant group, be they straight people, or cis people, or men, or whatever.
If someone in one of those groups is there listening, and feels they've been included in on something they didn't or don't do, then yes, you clarify to them. If need be, you apologize to them. (I will note that people here in this thread clarified to you that not all straight or cis people are bad, and that we know plenty of good non-LGBT people. If it's still not clear that I feel the same, then let me say that I feel the same. I know a lot of good straight and cis people, and have been posting under the assumption that that includes you too.)
What I would hope, however, is that such a person would understand the context of the discussion or statement, understand that if they don't do the things being criticized, they themselves are not being criticized. And I would hope they could set aside themselves for a little bit, and listen.
If they can't, then yes, they should say so. And yes, the other person should respond and reassure.
But what I would also hope is that the person in the majority group would understand that, by understanding the context of a given comment, by listening rather than interrupting, they are being helpful.
There are many forms of allyship. Some are more active, and those are great. But if you are in a majority group, another form of allyship is to simply listen to what a person in a minority group is saying. Particularly in moments of heightened emotion, anger or frustration.
I'll add that I learned the value of this when the shoe was on the other foot, when I as a white person got involved in discussions of race and racial discrimination, and would sometimes stick my foot in my mouth, or get hung up on that "not all" aspect. I try not to do that anymore. I try to listen these days.
I hope that clarifies things, to you and to whomever feels the need to comment on me elsewhere on the boards.
the class attracts me because it is so intrinsically ttied to its social identity; transitioning and sexual/gender exploration can be accomplished by a great many casting classes, but I think the social identity with its lasting influence on the character's in-game contacts would cement the Vigilante as my favorite trans character class.
That's an interesting angle on the vigilante I hadn't thought of before.
I think there is a question implied in what you're saying, which is how one can effectively explore trans experiences in the context of a game and get past the "Oh, she's he now."
The hesitation I have about tying that aspect of a character so tightly to a class that is sort of about switching or hiding one's true class is that a lot of the social changes associated with transition are both more subtle and more direct than that, and can happen with the same, otherwise unchanged social or work environment one was in before. (If you're curious, I can point you toward articles about this, like how going from being seen as a male scientist to being out as a female scientist impacted someone's career, or from female to male.)
So I mean the larger question is are you looking to reenact or engage with the social aspect of transition on a more symbolic level (which I think the vigilante might lend itself to) or do you want to go for something more grounded in real experiences, in which case any class could potentially do. However, it'd probably be easier to achieve the former rather than the latter in the context of a game. (If that makes sense.)
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KSF: Thank you. I think I may have been misunderstood, though. I left because I did not see a way to bridge the viewpoints here. With some more thinking, perhaps I should try once more.
Most people go through life without becoming targets, without serious harassment, without becoming outcasts. They do not understand, whether they bully or not. How could they? It takes a while to learn fear, mistrust, self-loathing and hatred. And without learning that, there is literally nothing in that barrel of misery that anyone wants. They live their lives and assume everything will work out to the best. Worse, they assume everyone else does too. It is not really their fault. As TPQ said, they can't opt out. Most of them are roughly decent people.
But enough ARE targeted. The bigots use whatever excuse they can to benefit from targeting others, whether it is a pair of pants, a sexuality or a skin colour. When someone is not willing to dance through their hoops regarding how to behave, how to look, and above all how to kowtow to the bigots, that someone becomes a target.
It was six years. They hit me for any number of reasons. They humiliated me constantly. Even people who did not know me at all made jokes about me. There are only three people in the world I would spit in the face of. Many took part, including grownups. When I complained, the teachers told me "it isn't one's fault that two are fighting". When I clumsily tried to fight back, I got told off for causing trouble. The worst part was knowing I was alone.
I survived. I live a good life today. My tormentors are failed sludge. I am not the one who needs help anymore. But they are out there, in every schoolyard, sitting apart, hoping nobody notices them, pretending they are fine. And guess what? They are all sorts of kids. Black, white, boys, girls, homosexual, heterosexual, cis and trans. The need of help is universal, and the struggle for acceptance and tolerance is all our struggle.
Only someone who has been an outcast will understand. Ergo, when a kid is targeted, it is only those who do understand who will be able to help. We are needed - but we can't do that job if we blind ourselves to suffering depending on groups.
I will keep on trying. I hope you will too.
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Thank you, Crystal, for getting this thread away from tail-chasing and turning it back into the haven it's supposed to be :)
Anyways, I generally play all of my martial classes as surly lesbian knights, or annoyingly cheerful swashbucklers that function as a weird mix between Sera and Kasumi Goto.
I've actually been toying with the idea of a trans or genderfluid vigilante for a while now, since that class' mechanics have so much to contribute to that kind of story.
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What I would hope, however, is that such a person would understand the context of the discussion or statement, understand that if they don't do the things being criticized, they themselves are not being criticized.That's some double standard that I personally don't like much. Perhaps is because I see myself as very neutral, but I have the same standard for everyone and the responsibility of not being offensive (in their generalization in this case) is on the speaker whoever the speaker is and to whoever the speaker is talking to.
I'm not sure it's a double-standard if I apply the same to myself when I am in the reverse position. Which, as I said, I strive to do.
I also don't assume other people are responsible for not being offensive to me when they are discussing their own hardships or the problems they face. I have a choice to make about how to react if I am offended, and I make that choice. I am simply asking others to realize there is a choice there, and to understand how helpful listening is, even in emotionally fraught situations. Sometimes, you can help others by setting yourself aside for a bit.
Thank you, Crystal, for getting this thread away from tail-chasing and turning it back into the haven it's supposed to be :)
Anyways, I generally play all of my martial classes as surly lesbian knights, or annoyingly cheerful swashbucklers that function as a weird mix between Sera and Kasumi Goto.
I've actually been toying with the idea of a trans or genderfluid vigilante for a while now, since that class' mechanics have so much to contribute to that kind of story.
Kasumi Gotoooooooooooooo
Daggumit, I wish she was a romanceable companion in ME2... she was so great... Maybe even that bi companion that BioWare forgot to put in ME2...
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That makes perfect sense, at least to me, and that implied question is definitely a concern.
Ignoring the question of symbolism vs realism for a moment, what I'm looking for is an attempt at seeing a world through the eyes of someone who is beginning to recognize their gender dysphoria, and to try to work through how I'd come to terms with that in a given setting and then how I'd feel about transitioning into presenting myself as my real gender. This would only work in a high RP game.
Yeah, that was what I was trying to get at. It would take a lot of cooperation from the GM and the other players in the game. And some people might not be down with that. Or they might keep forgetting.
The kinds of things I'm talking about are sometimes subtle or unconscious on the part of those who do them, but people do start treating you differently in some ways.
But there's also the specifics of how people are treated when they now find themselves female in a male-dominated field, or now find themselves male in that field, or variations thereof.
But within Golarion, that might be difficult to pull off storywise, as the world has been built with a more level playing field between male and female, at least as far as player character classes are concerned. So... I don't know.
Just through this thinking out loud.
Honestly I'm under-prepared to answer any questions relating to the degree of symbolism vs reality that would need to be present. I'm not sure any cishet could really provide an answer to that question. I'd like to get to the point where I would be at least be comfortable entering into a discussion of the topic.
Well I guess what I meant was, what's the goal of a character like the vigilante you're describing? A more symbolic exploration can be of value (for a long time, that's pretty much all trans people had to work with, in terms of positive media representations of transness), provided one understands the things it's not doing. But if it provides you with an opportunity to think through these sorts of issues, I dunno, go for it.
I would appreciate any articles you can point out to me; any on the topics you've mentioned would be a great help. Thank you in advance.
Here's one about how people are treated differently in the workplace after transitioning, which eventually focuses on two scientists at Stanford who transitioned in opposite directions well into their careers.
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So, not a good question, I know, but I am really curious
It is okay to play a stereotypical "dwarf" as a loud mouthed, incoherent drunken Scotsman, which may be insulting to loudmouths, drunks, or Scotsman (or not, as dwarfs are "technically" not real)
But, is it wrong to play a stereotypical "Hollywood redition" gay or lesbian character?
First off, you're comparing an entirely fictional race to real people (and combining it with a racist caricature).
Is it okay to play a Dwarf that loves to drink? Sure.
Is it okay to play a fantasy race as an offensive caricature of a real ethnicity? No.
Is it okay to play an annoying to straight out offensive "stereotypical"/caricature of real world minorities? No.
I'm most likely overstepping in what I know or what's right so I'll stop there.
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Rysky,
Most of the dwarves I've met are racists drunks. :p ;) *is kidding*
Sort of...
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This is a false division, of sorts. First of all, is sexuality not biological? Or, conversely (and I may be using that word wrong), is gender not at the same distance from biology as sexuality, which defines itself with gendered relations? What I'm mainly getting at here is that it's important to avoid gender essentialism, especially in terms of thinking about how biology relates to transgender and cisgender bodies.
To expand on that, let's take a look at what you initially proposed: in a world with high fantasy Pathfinder magic, transgender people would be drawn to pursuing magic as a means of "changing gender". This is at best an oversimplified way at looking at gender and what it means to be trans. At worst, it takes a biological essentialist view of gender--i.e., there is something essential in a body that makes it one gender or another, and a given gender has something essential about it that manifests biologically in the body. This can be a dangerous line of thinking in that it can invalidate trans identities (not to mention its intersexism). For instance, the typical anti-trans rhetoric denies trans people their gender based on their genitals. Men have one thing, women have a different thing, and that biological component is essential to what they are, says this rhetoric. Sometimes this approach allows for a window of validation: if a trans person alters their body through hormones and surgery, dresses the right way, acts the right way, goes through the legal process to change their name and gender, etc., then these oh-so-gracious gatekeepers will accept that a trans person has stopped being one binary gender and is now "the other" binary gender.
Another problem that I see is that similar terms are being used in a very, very different capacity by different people. Many of these terms as defined by someone in the social sciences/gender studies field aren't going to mean the same thing as defined by a neurologist or developmental biologist. Say that gender (or really any complex human behavior) has a basis in biology and the former will probably froth at the mouth, the latter will say that it's much more complicated than it seems and then lecture on decades of intricate controlled neuroanatomical studies, and then a weird coalition of TERFS and religious fundamentalists will spout their typical nonsense about how it's totally a binary.
Ultimately there isn't an XX/XY gender binary, because while on the surface it's easy shorthand to use that male/female binary which works for the vast majority of people, it's a hell of a lot more complicated than just the sex chromosomes. You've got sex-linked gene variants, gene expression, pre-natal hormone exposure, and epigenetics to consider as well that affect both the body as a whole and more specifically the portions of the brain that define how we view our own bodies and our own gender identity. For all the social gloss of gender norms and gendered social conventions, it ultimately appears to be in the current consensus view in the scientific community to be hardwired in our brains during prenatal development as to how we view ourselves, and it's also on a continuum (though most are are the polar extremes). Some in the trans community may desire to transition from one seeming binary to the other, while some may be more fluid, and of course it's all often muddied since gender expression isn't the same as internal/inherent gender identity, which is often something that's forgotten.
TL/DR: I'm with you on having individual nuance in both real life and in-game as to how transition would be handled. :)
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@Todd: Yeah! I'm by no means a medical or biological expert, but I've read enough about how it relates to trans folks and gender in general that the idea of a gender binary is clearly conceptual rather than absolute. There's more variation in hormones, karyotype, brain structure, general body type, etc., within a gender than among any number of them.
In other words, gender is fake, actually.[/tongue in cheek]
Gender is fake. Orcus tells me that every day.
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My girlfriend is back home and likely coming out to their evangelical mom right now. I'm so nervous right now. I wish I was there with them. They came out to their brother earlier today and it went very well, and he gave good signals about how open she will be. I just...wish I could make certain everything is going okay.
My girlfriend is back home and likely coming out to their evangelical mom right now. I'm so nervous right now. I wish I was there with them. They came out to their brother earlier today and it went very well, and he gave good signals about how open she will be. I just...wish I could make certain everything is going okay.
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//Just gonna butt myself in//
Hallo! I'm new to the forums but I drifted to this thread haha. I'm nonbinary bisexual and I can't remember playing a character who wasn't LGBT tbh. It's a very important part to me I guess?
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My girlfriend is back home and likely coming out to their evangelical mom right now. I'm so nervous right now. I wish I was there with them. They came out to their brother earlier today and it went very well, and he gave good signals about how open she will be. I just...wish I could make certain everything is going okay.
<3 <3 <3
//Just gonna butt myself in//
Hallo! I'm new to the forums but I drifted to this thread haha. I'm nonbinary bisexual and I can't remember playing a character who wasn't LGBT tbh. It's a very important part to me I guess?
Welcome!
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My girlfriend is back home and likely coming out to their evangelical mom right now. I'm so nervous right now. I wish I was there with them. They came out to their brother earlier today and it went very well, and he gave good signals about how open she will be. I just...wish I could make certain everything is going okay.
I hope everything will be ok
In any case, she can live her life free of that fear from now on
And you are there for her no matter what happens
I wish you both the very best :-)
My girlfriend is back home and likely coming out to their evangelical mom right now. I'm so nervous right now. I wish I was there with them. They came out to their brother earlier today and it went very well, and he gave good signals about how open she will be. I just...wish I could make certain everything is going okay.
I wish your girlfriend luck! Hopefully all goes well, and everyone can be happy :)
My girlfriend is back home and likely coming out to their evangelical mom right now. I'm so nervous right now. I wish I was there with them. They came out to their brother earlier today and it went very well, and he gave good signals about how open she will be. I just...wish I could make certain everything is going okay.
You can only hope for the best. As much as I hope it does go well. So many friends of mine with evangelical family have generally bad experiences so personally, I'd have run than take the risk, but that is me and I am bad at confrontation. Your girlfriend is doing/may have already done something pretty brave. I hope it pays off.
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My girlfriend is back home and likely coming out to their evangelical mom right now. I'm so nervous right now. I wish I was there with them. They came out to their brother earlier today and it went very well, and he gave good signals about how open she will be. I just...wish I could make certain everything is going okay.
*channels positive feelings*
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My girlfriend is back home and likely coming out to their evangelical mom right now. I'm so nervous right now. I wish I was there with them. They came out to their brother earlier today and it went very well, and he gave good signals about how open she will be. I just...wish I could make certain everything is going okay.*channels positive feelings*
+1
Here's an interesting article from today's BBC Magazine.
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Hey everyone!
It went really well for my girlfriend! I'm so happy <3
Hooray! Positive energy helps!
Lots of good stuff
Hey, I just want to apologize for not coming back sooner, our internet provider had issues and I've been without connection this weekend.
I have more I want to say but I think I'll wait until I know how I want to say it. Thank you again for the feedback though. I do appreciate different people will approach such complex issues differently.
Hey everyone!
It went really well for my girlfriend! I'm so happy <3
EXCELLENT
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So, what's everybody's favorite class for playing gay characters? Trans characters?
[tangent]Samsaran's seem absolutely *made* to explore this, as a Samsaran of one gender could have just come off of a long life as the other gender, and, sort of like Dax, from Deep Space 9, perhaps still be more influenced by their long and storied previous life, than by their new and as yet undistinguished life. (Someone who spent decades as the matchmaking matriarch of a large merchant-family, now a teenaged male, the sort of person 'she' used to arrange marriages for and boss around, finding the 'fit' less than comfortable, since she's now taking her orders from one of her own daughters, who, in her previous life, she never really thought up to the task of taking over the family business...)
As for classes, some roles in fantasy fiction seem to get 'typed' as 'boy jobs' or 'girl jobs.' (The wise gentle healer is Goldmoon. The gruff tough fighter is Riverwind.) Just to play against type a little bit, I played a male cleric who was gay, for a fair bit, but it never really came up in gameplay, and so went mostly unnoticed. Rather than be the traditional battle-cleric that buffs himself and goes into melee, he was the type who stood back with a readied action to heal, while trusting in shield other on the tankiest fighter to reduce the amount of healing needed (and the fact that he was casting a spell every day to link his life-force to another dude fit the theme I was going for).
Historically, shamen have been occasionally tied to defying taboos, or even taking on the roles of another gender, and the shaman class, along with other classes that contact otherworldly forces, seems well-suited to this sort of concept. Clerics, Witches, Oracles, Shamen, Sorcerers, Summoners and Mediums all connect in some way with beings that may be strongly tied to one gender, or have some very different views on gender or 'gender roles,' which might sometimes lead to people with more open-minded views or fluid preferences becoming that female cleric of Gorum or Rovagug, or male cleric of Calistria or Lamashtu, or the Spiritualist or Medium who is more comfortable allowing a spirit of the opposite gender to take up residence in their own body, and possibly even influence their behavior. Those sorts of classes seem like they'd lend themselves well to this sort of exploration.[/tangent]
Hey everyone!
It went really well for my girlfriend! I'm so happy <3
Very nice! :)
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I have a date today with a guy I met through tabletops/LARPing! Felt that this is something relevant to this threads content :3
I have a date today with a guy I met through tabletops/LARPing! Felt that this is something relevant to this threads content :3
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Excellent news! I just accepted a new job!
Cons: It's further away and pays less.
Pros: I'm getting out of the for-profit industry and into the non-profit one, and I applied as openly trans! The HR person who called to give me the offer asked me my pronouns.
^_^
Excellent news! I just accepted a new job!
Cons: It's further away and pays less.
Pros: I'm getting out of the for-profit industry and into the non-profit one, and I applied as openly trans! The HR person who called to give me the offer asked me my pronouns.^_^
The idiot child in me went "I want to choose pronouns!" like I could choose, "Sequious" as a pronoun. I immediately looked at said child in me and went, "Are you an idiot? That's not how any of this works!"
He/I apologize.