The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.

[Kalindlara]

There's an azata in Breaking The Bones Of Hell that is a gender other than male or female.

[Ess]

Mummy's Mask has at least two. The first is a minor NPC (no picture or statblock), a halfling fence named Dredge who is explicitly referred to as genderless and is mentioned in the Wati section of The Half-Dead City (AP 79). The second is more prominent (picture and statblock included), a human ghost paladin of Sarenrae named Lady Sophronia, who in life was basically described as genderfluid but preferred presenting as female most of the time (notably, she uses she/her pronouns, but doesn't have any gender assigned to her statblock), and is a friendly encounter in Secrets of the Sphinx (AP 82).

[KSF]

A bit of breaking news from Montreal:

Police Are Treating an Arson at Canada’s Main Sex-Reassignment Clinic as a Hate Crime

[Todd Stewart]

KSF wrote:

A bit of breaking news from Montreal:

Police Are Treating an Arson at Canada’s Main Sex-Reassignment Clinic as a Hate Crime

Ugh. :(

[Crystal Frasier]

Ess wrote:

Mummy's Mask has at least two. The first is a minor NPC (no picture or statblock), a halfling fence named Dredge who is explicitly referred to as genderless and is mentioned in the Wati section of The Half-Dead City (AP 79). The second is more prominent (picture and statblock included), a human ghost paladin of Sarenrae named Lady Sophronia, who in life was basically described as genderfluid but preferred presenting as female most of the time (notably, she uses she/her pronouns, but doesn't have any gender assigned to her statblock), and is a friendly encounter in Secrets of the Sphinx (AP 82).

The Wati statblock originally mentioned a trans woman as well. Anjet Jehuti, who runs the Insula Matwer (the city's birthing center), was a trans woman, but that element appears to have been dropped in development.

EDIT: Apologies. I just discovered that this was in response to a question about nonbinary characters.

In-house, all angels are supposed to be nonbinary or agender, but in practice it doesn't happen as often as we'd like.

[Arakhor]

I'd have thought that various non-breeding outsiders would appear in whatever gender they cared to do so, e.g. devas, planetars, pit fiends, balors etc.

The god Vivec, from the classic RPG Morrowind, certainly seems to qualify as either bisexual, bigender or both. (He's quite literally biracial by choice.)

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Ceyanan from Death's Heretic and The Redemption Engine has no apparent gender.

[Freehold DM]

I can't believe it..

[Bob_Loblaw]

So I had my gallbladder removed today and I had some complications so the outpatient procedure turned into an overnight. The good news is that almost all of the nurses, men and women, have been wonderful to me. Did I mention that they are cute and funny? They are.

[Rysky]

Glad to hear your doing ok now Bob. And that you're surrounded by cute nurses :3

[Freehold DM]

I'm glad you're doing better Bob.

[Qunnessaa]

I turn my back on this thread for a few months (school’s been busy, but good) …
and it continues to be silly, sweet, and supportive!

Hello again, everyone, and welcome to the folks newly arrived to the thread!

Apart from just dropping in again, I thought I might ask here for some reading suggestions if anyone cares to gush about any LGBT fiction they’ve chanced upon lately. I’m going to be passing through the big city in my part of the world this weekend, and I’m certainly planning a stop at the local LGBT bookstore. Any suggestions for newish fiction with queer and/or trans women protagonists would be greatly appreciated. :)

On that note…

Rysky wrote:

Lilith wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

Lilith wrote:

One of my big wishes for society is to be more comfortable with the idea of platonic love, because cuddles are awesome.

but..but...carnality!

Cuddles and carnality aren't mutually exclusive!

Tis fact.

I think I must say Cuddles and Carnality sounds like a long-lost Jane Austen novel that I would be pleased to have on my shelf, even as a complete Ann Radcliffe fangirl. (Yes, I’m still put out about certain remarks in Northanger Abbey.) And this entire exchange was delightful. :)

[Judy Bauer]

Oh oh! Some I really like:

My Real Children, by Jo Walton
Under the Udala Trees, by Chinelo Okparanta (aviso: off-screen violence against queer folk)
The Telling, by Ursula K. Le Guin
Ash and The Huntress, by Malinda Lo
Ammonite, by Nicola Griffith (her noir crime novels Always, Stay, and The Blue Place are also pretty great)

Haven't read I Can't Think Straight by Shamim Sarif, but the film version was wonderful so it's on my list to read later.

And glad to hear you're getting great care and are doing better, Bob!

[Bob_Loblaw]

My closest friend has known about me being bi and a crossdresser for over a decade. She has seen pictures and offered some advice. She has not actually seen me en femme before. She is coming over for a quick visit in a little bit and wants me to be dressed as Cindy. I'm terrified, but I also know that she is accepting, supportive, and encouraging.

Here's to hoping that she doesn't unfriend me...I don't have time to do all my makeup so I look like a bad mismatch of Bob and Cindy. No one should have to endure that...

[ReckNBall]

Go Bob! Looks like Cindy is starting to network!

[Bob_Loblaw]

The visit went well. She thought I did a great job putting myself together without having time for makeup.

Now I need to just learn to relax. My friends are wonderful people and I need to accept that.

[mechaPoet]

That's great! I've definitely known that fear before, but I'm glad it went well and I'm glad you felt comfortable enough despite that to be femme around another person.

It can be hard to relax in that kind of situation, and for me it took a mix of practice, time, and accepting friends to get to where I am now. Even with all that, it's taken years, you know? You've got to go at your own pace, and it takes introspective work and courage. It sounds like you're getting closer to a place where you can enjoy yourself without as much trepidation, and that's super exciting! I hope it only gets better from here. :)

[Bob_Loblaw]

I'm still terrified about leaving the house. Some of my friends who aren't going to be with me think I should just risk it.

[mechaPoet]

That's your decision to make. I still get nervous if I'm walking around our taking the bus or something, so I don't know if I'd personally be ready just to jump into the deep end like that. If you think you can, it might be worth a shot, but there's always been a tension for me between feeling safe (in various ways) and dressing how I like.

What I've done before is only go out if I have someone with me, or if I'm getting a ride somewhere. Also, if I'm going over to someone else's home for a party, I would ask if I could arrive a little early and bring a bag so I could change when I get there.

[Bob_Loblaw]

That's what I feel most comfortable doing. Unfortunately for me, I don't have a lot of safe places.

[GM_Panic]

I have a Question about.

Elves and none heterosexual unions
It has always been my way of thinking that Elf culture is open up none heterosexual unions and relationships. Now this is not down to any idea of "camp-ness" or "Fey-ness" but more around the just how long they live. I just don't see them being a one partner or gender kind of being. I can see them having very complicated love lives over the 600+ they live.

Whats the thinking on this?

[Rennaivx]

GM_Panic wrote:

I have a Question about.

Elves and none heterosexual unions
It has always been my way of thinking that Elf culture is open up none heterosexual unions and relationships. Now this is not down to any idea of "camp-ness" or "Fey-ness" but more around the just how long they live. I just don't see them being a one partner or gender kind of being. I can see them having very complicated love lives over the 600+ they live.

Whats the thinking on this?

I want to say I've seen something on the topic fairly recently (which corroborated your way of thinking on the matter), but I've read an awful lot of things over the past several months, and I can't remember where it was. Let me poke around for a bit and see if I can find it.

EDIT: I haven't found where it spoke specifically on the topic, but in Inner Sea Races, it describes the elves as holding freedom as one of their primary values, and says that they would "never attempt to restrict another's behavior or nature". That definitely seems to suggest to me that they wouldn't be restrained at all in explorations of sexuality, since those desires are a part of their nature and as such are valued. It does also call out their romantic relationships as being "especially complex".

For what it's worth, they're also described as having less drastic sexual dimorphism than humans, too. It wouldn't surprise me if that led to more open acceptance of non-heterosexuality/non-cis-gendered people as well, since the differences between the genders are simply not as dramatic, and thus distinction between them might be less to fuss over.

And also for what it's worth, the most prominent elven iconic, Merisiel, is openly bi in canon. My favorite picture in Ultimate Intrigue is her kissing Valeros under the effect of a spell while her girlfriend Kyra looks on in disgust and frustration. :)

[Rennaivx]

Silly me wrote:

My favorite picture in Ultimate Intrigue is her kissing Valeros under the effect of a spell while her girlfriend Kyra looks on in disgust and frustration. :)

To clarify: I am not pleased with Meligaster's attempts to bolster Valeros macking on Merisiel, because I hardcore ship Merisiel/Kyra for life. I just appreciate the sheer look of "Im'ma get that woman-stealing...*grumble, grumble*" on Kyra's face. :)

[Kalindlara]

Rennaivx wrote:

Silly me wrote:

My favorite picture in Ultimate Intrigue is her kissing Valeros under the effect of a spell while her girlfriend Kyra looks on in disgust and frustration. :)

To clarify: I am not pleased with Meligaster's attempts to bolster Valeros macking on Merisiel, because I hardcore ship Merisiel/Kyra for life. I just appreciate the sheer look of "Im'ma get that woman-stealing...*grumble, grumble*" on Kyra's face. :)

I've always wondered about this: is it still a ship if it's actually happening? ^_^

[Rennaivx]

Kalindlara wrote:

Rennaivx wrote:

Silly me wrote:

My favorite picture in Ultimate Intrigue is her kissing Valeros under the effect of a spell while her girlfriend Kyra looks on in disgust and frustration. :)

To clarify: I am not pleased with Meligaster's attempts to bolster Valeros macking on Merisiel, because I hardcore ship Merisiel/Kyra for life. I just appreciate the sheer look of "Im'ma get that woman-stealing...*grumble, grumble*" on Kyra's face. :)

I've always wondered about this: is it still a ship if it's actually happening? ^_^

Still is - the fact that it's true doesn't make me want or love it any less. Plus, we all know that the ship with a can(n)on wins, and Valeros/Merisiel doesn't have one. :P

[mechaPoet]

There's a great picture in the third book of Hell's Rebels of Merisiel dragging Kyra to a ball, both of them wearing huge-skirted ball gowns.

[Kalindlara]

mechaPoet wrote:

There's a great picture in the third book of Hell's Rebels of Merisiel dragging Kyra to a ball, both of them wearing huge-skirted ball gowns.

It really is fabulous. I <3 that piece. Possibly my favorite in the whole AP.

In addition, all of this puts a certain piece of art from Legacy of Fire in a whole new light... ^_^

[Rennaivx]

mechaPoet wrote:

There's a great picture in the third book of Hell's Rebels of Merisiel dragging Kyra to a ball, both of them wearing huge-skirted ball gowns.

I totally didn't catch that when I was reading through it - I had to go back and look for it. I think because Kyra looks so very unlike herself in it, haha. You're right, though - it is quite excellent.

And curse you, Kalindlara...now I'm gonna have to dig through Legacy of Fire to see what you're talking about, because it's very important...;)

EDIT: Oh, that picture. :)

[GM_Panic]

Rennaivx:

Rennaivx wrote:

GM_Panic wrote:

I have a Question about.

Elves and none heterosexual unions
It has always been my way of thinking that Elf culture is open up none heterosexual unions and relationships. Now this is not down to any idea of "camp-ness" or "Fey-ness" but more around the just how long they live. I just don't see them being a one partner or gender kind of being. I can see them having very complicated love lives over the 600+ they live.

Whats the thinking on this?

I want to say I've seen something on the topic fairly recently (which corroborated your way of thinking on the matter), but I've read an awful lot of things over the past several months, and I can't remember where it was. Let me poke around for a bit and see if I can find it.

EDIT: I haven't found where it spoke specifically on the topic, but in Inner Sea Races, it describes the elves as holding freedom as one of their primary values, and says that they would "never attempt to restrict another's behavior or nature". That definitely seems to suggest to me that they wouldn't be restrained at all in explorations of sexuality, since those desires are a part of their nature and as such are valued. It does also call out their romantic relationships as being "especially complex".

For what it's worth, they're also described as having less drastic sexual dimorphism than humans, too. It wouldn't surprise me if that led to more open acceptance of non-heterosexuality/non-cis-gendered people as well, since the differences between the genders are simply not as dramatic, and thus distinction between them might be less to fuss over.

And also for what it's worth, the most prominent elven iconic, Merisiel, is openly bi in canon. My favorite picture in Ultimate Intrigue is her kissing Valeros under the effect of a spell while her girlfriend Kyra looks on in disgust and frustration. :)

That's great and just what I was looking for,
My thinking is this, in a world of magic such a Golarion, races like the Elves see both sex and gender as something you chose. Not only that to them both are fluid.
An elf during its life could change sex and gender more than once. The idea being that elves would be happy to be female to have a child and male should wish to help another have a child. This idea that your just and elf and that sex and gender can be anything you wish would be very confusing to other races like humans, who’s cultures tend to be gender locked.
They may feel that each elf can should have one child in there long lives if nothing more than to replace themselves after death.
This then would explain the low numbers of elves and why they don't have large families.
This idea of ‘No fixed Gender’ It would also give rise to very complicated loves lives with partners changes sex and or gender as they felt like it. Once could meet two gay male Elves who on your next meeting may be two guy female elves then late one could be female the other male etc.
I also think they may even feel sorry to races that seek to keep one gender or sex. Seeing them as somehow limited or stunted in their understanding or each sex and gender.
"How can you, as a male understand a female view point if you have never been one? I have more than male and female and I can tell you…"
Kind of thing.
It would also explain why humans and others see elves as somehow effeminate when in-fact they just don't have a pour male view of things.
I want to run Elves this way in my game, they are the gender switcher who have a whole culture around the fact they do.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

GM_Panic wrote:

I want to run Elves this way in my game, they are the gender switcher who have a whole culture around the fact they do.

This would go an assuredly long way to helping explain why Calistria can appear as any gender, sexuality, or inclination to aspirants, and why the issue of whether one of the encounters with her may or may not have been her, etc.

That being said, could it be an in-canon reason why there are 'cursed' Girdles of Opposite Gender out there? They're actually performing as designed, it's just that no one has the documentation (having been lost after thousands of years and a couple of global catastrophes) and the ones that 'remove all' are actually the 'cursed' items?

After all, it's a DC 20 Fortitude save... how many average elves are going to make that?

[mechaPoet]

I don't know if I've ever seen anything that explicitly indicates that elves have a fluid approach to gender and sexuality. I feel like that perception among gamers mostly reads into their culture and what is perceived as a less pronounced sexual dimorphism. Or maybe just a tendency toward a more "feminine" appearance, since I feel like this difference is portrayed as male elves with slighter physiques and less or no facial hair, rather than female elves with larger bodies, more hair, and smaller breasts.

Personally, I'm more interested in gender variance among other races. The only canonical cultural Traditions of gender variance I know of on Golarion are those of the Dwarven Rivethun (via Shardra's meet the iconics story). I'm not saying that the gender of elves isn't worth talking about, but as a trans person I'm much more interested in Dwarven ladies that could have beards - not because it's a dwarf thing, but because there are human ladies with beards.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Now I kind of want all the "shipping" art for all the iconics gathered in one place, honestly. These goggles never come off!

[Jessica half Orc Pistoliero]

friend of mine produced the following PSA: https://youtu.be/2WrpWvE8u4M?list=PLxet_flaxFhMocgDf8rEpzjGLWx9mxYt8
If you have access to a tv station or simply want to pass this on, please do.

[Jessica half Orc Pistoliero]

Also did anyone see the news about the US attorney general's action against NC?

Attorney General Brings Suit

Quote:

In a moving statement given just moments ago, Attorney General Loretta Lynch announced that the Department of Justice (DOJ) is filing a lawsuit against the state of North Carolina over HB2, which it describes as “state-sponsored discrimination against transgender individuals.”

Huzzah for the AG and the Obama administration!

[Kobold Catgirl]

Kind of remarkable that both leading presidential candidates have criticized the bathroom law. Probably the one good thing about this election, aside from the joke material about the losers.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

I'm pretty sure James Jacobs has said that the majority of elves are bi in the setting. Like, canonically.

KC: Trump walked back his criticism, however.

[mechaPoet]

Hm, good to know. I think I need to read up more on Golarion elves in general: I don't really have more than a passing understanding of what they're like. Probably means I need to pick up more player companions and setting books, but I don't know if I have the spare cash to make that investment soon. :P

---

On a completely different note, have y'all noticed how some people on the forums will go to great lengths of re-skinning and reimagining to avoid playing a class with any hint of femininity? For example, the occasional discussion about bards pops up that contains this exchange:

Poster 1: I don't like bards! Why would I want to play some sissy lute player?
Poster 2: Poster 1, bards are great and mechanically strong! You can totally play them as badass war leaders with Perform (Oratory) shouting orders, in order to put a masculine dressing over what you imagined as feminine as therefore weak and without value!

I may be paraphrasing. In any case, I don't have anything clever to say about it, just that I saw something similar and rolled my eyes because sometimes this board is comically misogynistic.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

I'm pretty sure James Jacobs has said that the majority of elves are bi in the setting. Like, canonically.

KC: Trump walked back his criticism, however.

Like I said, the only good thing.

[Hrothdane]

mechaPoet wrote:

*canny observations about disparaging of feminity*

Just add it to the list of places that have a problematic relationship with the feminine. Not even queer spaces are free from such problems in my experience :/

[Deadmanwalking]

mechaPoet wrote:

On a completely different note, have y'all noticed how some people on the forums will go to great lengths of re-skinning and reimagining to avoid playing a class with any hint of femininity? For example, the occasional discussion about bards pops up that contains this exchange:

Poster 1: I don't like bards! Why would I want to play some sissy lute player?
Poster 2: Poster 1, bards are great and mechanically strong! You can totally play them as badass war leaders with Perform (Oratory) shouting orders, in order to put a masculine dressing over what you imagined as feminine as therefore weak and without value!

I may be paraphrasing. In any case, I don't have anything clever to say about it, just that I saw something similar and rolled my eyes because sometimes this board is comically misogynistic.

I'm not gonna disagree that people sometimes get really weirdly concerned with avoiding feminine things in their characters (the number of times I've seen 'What do we call male Witches?' boggles my mind occasionally...we call them Witches, folks), but, speaking as someone who's been poster #2 (the one advocating re-imagining Bards) of discussions on Bards, I don't think that particular issue is at the heart of most people's problems with the Bard.

The argument I hear about Bards almost never makes references to anything 'sissy' or 'feminine'. The word most often used in that argument is 'silly', often in the context of the following or something like it:

'I feel silly sitting in the back and playing a lute while people are bleeding and dying, shouldn't I be being helpful in a more direct fashion?'

Which is where the war-leader using Oratory thing comes in. Or a swordsman hurling cutting words at her foes as she uses a rapier. Or several other examples that often come up.

Which, really, isn't a stereotypical masculine/feminine distinction. It's a genre distinction about whether standing in back and playing music should be a valid thing to do in combat. It's debatably a denigrating attitude towards music and art...but not really towards stereotypical femininity for the most part.

The language might get thrown in occasionally, but I think that's basically in the context of using 'sissy' or 'feminine' to insult things a person already dislike for other reasons (which is terrible, but a whole different issue), with the core problem remaining that the stereotypical Bard breaks verisimilitude for the people in question.

[mechaPoet]

I'd argue that there is a significant gendered component of active versus passive/support roles in the genre. A lot of the discussion around this that I see is based on not feeling directly useful or "badass" enough. There's often a clear evaluation that puts masculine strength and direct violence ahead of the more feminine associated supporting roles.

I'm not saying everyone's going around saying that bards are too feminine for their tastes (although there are people who make that explicit complaint). I am saying that there are a lot of players who feel the need to re-flavor various class features in ways that portray them in traditionally masculine ways. And I mean, I want people to feel comfortable about their character's gender expression, but a lot of it seems to be based on insecurities about masculinity. And I feel like it's kind of a chicken and egg situation, where the underlying cultural misogyny both creates the repulsion to femininity that creates this problem and is maintained by the language of these discussions.

I don't think it's the Be-All-End-All root of all the problems people have in re-flavor discussions, but I think it appears as a component because of the pervasive nature of gendered valuing.

[Todd Stewart]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

KC: Trump walked back his criticism, however.

Huh, I haven't seen that.

I've only seen his statements that transgender folks should be able to use whatever bathroom they feel most comfortable with, and then his offer to Caitlyn Jenner to use whatever bathroom in Trump tower that she wanted (which she accepted and was in the press about). Say what you will about any of his other positions, but he seemed to be pretty solid on this issue on more than one occasion (which isn't going to win him any religious conservative votes, but he was never in that camp anyway).

Do you have a link to where he walked back on what seemed to be a pretty solid rebuke of the sentiment behind HB2?

[GM_Panic]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

I'm pretty sure James Jacobs has said that the majority of elves are bi in the setting. Like, canonically.

wow thats is great, thanks for posting that it really helps.

:)

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Link

Well, he didn't completely walk it back, but says he thinks the federal government shouldn't get involved and leave it to the states. In other words, States Rights which is a way to support discrimination without appearing to support discrimination.

[Freehold DM]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Link

Well, he didn't completely walk it back, but says he thinks the federal government shouldn't get involved and leave it to the states. In other words, States Rights which is a way to support discrimination without appearing to support discrimination.

indeed.

[Freehold DM]

mechaPoet wrote:

I'd argue that there is a significant gendered component of active versus passive/support roles in the genre. A lot of the discussion around this that I see is based on not feeling directly useful or "badass" enough. There's often a clear evaluation that puts masculine strength and direct violence ahead of the more feminine associated supporting roles.

I'm not saying everyone's going around saying that bards are too feminine for their tastes (although there are people who make that explicit complaint). I am saying that there are a lot of players who feel the need to re-flavor various class features in ways that portray them in traditionally masculine ways. And I mean, I want people to feel comfortable about their character's gender expression, but a lot of it seems to be based on insecurities about masculinity. And I feel like it's kind of a chicken and egg situation, where the underlying cultural misogyny both creates the repulsion to femininity that creates this problem and is maintained by the language of these discussions.

I don't think it's the Be-All-End-All root of all the problems people have in re-flavor discussions, but I think it appears as a component because of the pervasive nature of gendered valuing.

I have no idea how gender ended up playing a role in a disparity that seems to have originated in social status and financial background than anything else.

[mechaPoet]

Freehold DM wrote:

I have no idea how gender ended up playing a role in a disparity that seems to have originated in social status and financial background than anything else.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Could you explain what you're referring to more specifically?

[Deadmanwalking]

mechaPoet wrote:

I'd argue that there is a significant gendered component of active versus passive/support roles in the genre. A lot of the discussion around this that I see is based on not feeling directly useful or "badass" enough. There's often a clear evaluation that puts masculine strength and direct violence ahead of the more feminine associated supporting roles.

That's true to some degree, and certainly one reason people might prefer a more active class, but it's mechanical role is not the primary objection people who have issues with Bards tend to make. Many are fine with playing a support character and simply have issues with certain thematic elements of Bard specifically. And it's not standing in the back and having others do the fighting for the most part, most are fine with support clerics and the like, it's the music, and the feeling that music is 'frivolous' or 'silly'. Which is definitely an unfortunate attitude, but not precisely a gendered one per se.

mechaPoet wrote:

I'm not saying everyone's going around saying that bards are too feminine for their tastes (although there are people who make that explicit complaint). I am saying that there are a lot of players who feel the need to re-flavor various class features in ways that portray them in traditionally masculine ways. And I mean, I want people to feel comfortable about their character's gender expression, but a lot of it seems to be based on insecurities about masculinity. And I feel like it's kind of a chicken and egg situation, where the underlying cultural misogyny both creates the repulsion to femininity that creates this problem and is maintained by the language of these discussions.

Some people certainly do that, and I wouldn't dream of disputing that fact. But my point is that it's not the main reason people complain about Bards specifically, nor what provokes Bard reflavoring suggestions in the vast majority of circumstances.

mechaPoet wrote:

I don't think it's the Be-All-End-All root of all the problems people have in re-flavor discussions, but I think it appears as a component because of the pervasive nature of gendered valuing.

Well, that I certainly agree with. The appearance of gendered language tropes and language definitely show up due to the pervasiveness of such ideas in our society. It's how tightly they're related (and how causal they are) to the particular issue in question that I disagree with.

[Trekkie90909]

mechapoet wrote:

I'd argue that there is a significant gendered component of active versus passive/support roles in the genre.

I can’t say I’ve seen this personally in D&D, or in many of the sources traditionally ascribed as inspirations for the genre; Tolkien’s women for example are typically active (though not central) characters – I could be a little skewed since in my initial reading of The Lord of the Rings I read Merry as a female character up until the end of the last book and the 'after story' in the shire. As an anime trope there are certainly grounds for the argument as it is a shonen anime trope (but then, that’s supposed to be gendered and relatively few erm safe for work seinan pieces carry the trope into adolescence, in fact more than a few suggest a reverse disparity). The (admittedly few) female gamers I’ve played with have covered the whole range from front liner to ‘active’ support (i.e. battlefield controls and summoning) to ‘passive’ support (i.e. buffing, and reactive benefits like healing and status removal). Similarly few of the male-gamers female-characters conform to the ‘passive,’ or even support roles.

That said the stereotypical advice I’ve heard when a neophyte girl gamer joins a group is ‘go druid or bard,’ so clearly I’m either in the minority or we need to update those recommendations – I’ve rarely seen anyone stick with bard for long; druid seems a bit more popular but that makes sense given its versatility. On the whole I’ve seen more male-PC bards, and about equal male/female-PC druids.

Quote:

A lot of the discussion around this that I see is based on not feeling directly useful or "badass" enough.

This I agree with wholeheartedly. Many people find themselves bored when they have only one clear way to be useful in combat and combat occurs frequently, or where their other options are either ‘traps’ or simply inferior.

Quote:

There's often a clear evaluation that puts masculine strength and direct violence ahead of the more feminine associated supporting roles.

I’ve covered that I don’t buy the whole masculine/feminine angle, but there’s another piece to your comment here which concerns valuating ‘strength and direct violence’ highly. I’d rather not make this the infinith caster/martial disparity thread, so I’ll limit myself to saying there are large groups of people in camps at polar opposite ends of that spectrum even within the male gamer community (even if we ignore all the finesse fighting-style fans), and we shouldn’t marginalize anyone on that spectrum.

Quote:

I'm not saying everyone's going around saying that bards are too feminine for their tastes (although there are people who make that explicit complaint). I am saying that there are a lot of players who feel the need to re-flavor various class features in ways that portray them in traditionally masculine ways. And I mean, I want people to feel comfortable about their character's gender expression, but a lot of it seems to be based on insecurities about masculinity. And I feel like it's kind of a chicken and egg situation, where the underlying cultural misogyny both creates the repulsion to femininity that creates this problem and is maintained by the language of these discussions.

There are a lot of statements in here which potentially contradict each other and are generally marginalizing. I would feel better about them if we were given examples of how people are re-flavoring class features in traditionally masculine ways (perhaps with a stronger definition or example of what that is) which are not inherently part of their personal gender expression, or a gender expression they’re interested in exploring (or perhaps easier, which are inflammatory/marginalizing towards women? -- mindfully or otherwise). So in the end I’m left wondering what the exact nature of the misogyny is you’re referring to, much less how to try and fix it -- I'm personally of a mind with Deadmanwalking that most 'reflavoring' is just to get rid of something which clashes with one's personal aesthetic.

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…but I think it appears as a component because of the pervasive nature of gendered valuing.

Personally nothing comes to mind in terms of gendered valuing with relation to pathfinder (Amiri actually first comes to mind when given the phrase ‘active’ in the context of strength and direct violence) or most ttrpgs within the scope of this discussion (i.e. ignoring a handful of sexual dimorphisms and systems which frankly aren’t popular for a reason, and don’t need advertising). I think some people, especially those who are of a younger age are prone to use gendered playground words like ‘sissy’ casually in place of a-gendered words like ‘monotonous,’ and are less likely to be able to make reasoned arguments describing exactly how and why they don't like the concept. So I do agree that as a society we need to outgrow mindsets which lead to a casual denigration of others, I'm just unconvinced that's what's happening here. There’s a distinction to be made between gendered valuing (which certainly exists in various forms, I’d debate “pervasive”) and gendered vocabulary which is pervasive. Which is all mostly irrelevant since I rarely have heard feminine terms used to denigrate passive/support classes which I find equally represented by male, and female PCs/gamers.

[Kalindlara]

I don't want to be a buzzkill, but this subject probably deserves its own thread. ^_^